Thursday, June 22, 2017

What Do You Think of Christian Universalism?

I'm not posting this to agree. This is a video that finally defines what Christian Universalism is to me. This guy believes in Christian Universalism or what is considered Universal Reconcilation. It basically teaches all people in the end will come out of hell and no one will be subjected to universal hellfire. The appealing side of this stands out. Who wants anyone to burn in hell for eternity?I have struggled thinking about the love of God and those condemned to this fate.

It seems this doctrine would attract many who are troubled by hell. Hell has always troubled me. I wonder why Jews never taught a hell for those who died, and there are those who contest the definitions of Sheol [the grave] and Hades. If you do a strong's translation of "hell" it shows up as Sheol in many verses. Some of these Christian Universalists believe that Jesus came not to rescue us from eternal damnation but annihilation in the grave where someone no longer exists or the grave itself. 

"sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
    1. the underworld
    2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
      1. place of no return
      2. without praise of God
      3. wicked sent there for punishment
      4. righteous not abandoned to it
      5. of the place of exile (fig)
      6. of extreme degradation in sin
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
שְׁאוֹל shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit."

Hell is a subject I need to study, and deal with. There is a tendency for us to sweep under the carpet what bothers us, and uncomfortable topics. Hell is a major one for me. I need to be a Berean and study scripture on this topic. Considering the churches lied about tithing and plenty else changing what is in scripture, I don't take their words for granted on the matter anymore but will take God's and what does the Bible say exactly.

While I wrote an article wondering aloud about hell, the doctrine has always bothered me. If it's true, I must accept it, even though I do not like the concept of hell.  One question I always had is why did the Old Testament Jews never teach the existence of hell? Modern Jews have told me about Sheol. Christian Universalists seem to believe that everyone will come to redemption. There are those who believe the truly wicked such as in the Seventh Day Adventist church will come to annihilation and will cease to exist, that seems as bothersome as "soul sleep" where you die and "cease to exist" until Judgment Day but then time would be an issue there, not existing in eternity right?
Christian Universalism sounds "great", who wants millions going to hell? Some of this man's ideas "sound good" but all doctrine definitely needs tested. This is different "universalism" such as in the Unitarian Universalist church, I want to make that clear. Of course the fate for those in false religions will change for those who knowingly rejected the gospel. Of course when I thought about the Christian Universalists, I had the thought well if everyone escapes hell, what did Jesus come to save us all from? The Christian Universalists seems to think He came to save us from death itself and to offer us a eternal life and not a place of fire. Of course the Bible mentions the Lake of Fire, and different places defined as "hell" from Hades to Sheol. From my own end, this needs more study.


Debra said...

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Peter 2:4-6 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Mathew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Bible Believer said...

Thanks for the scripture. I plan to study up on this one, and see what the Greek translations are. Jesus came to save us from something, bad. I can consider that the churches added legends and myths to the very nature of hell. The book of Dante is Catholic legends, the bible never speaks of the levels of hell does it?" Satan has the power to cast us into "hell" be it defined as a underworld, a place of separation from God etc. I need to figure out is "the lake of fire" in the bible the same as Hades? Does scripture itself, define hell as a place of fire and do so specifically. What is church legend and what does the Bible say? Even if we desire God have the most mercy for every being, if hell is real, and defined as a place in scripture of burning hot fire, we can't go down the path of I hate hell, let's say it doesn't exist. A lot of non-believers get angry at God for the existence of hell. I have noticed that looking at atheist and other boards. What is scripture and what is church legend? Obviously doing this blog you know I have found out the churches cover up a lot of scripture with false traditions.

I need to see what scripture says on this one. Obviously Jesus came to save us from a very terrible place. It seems defined scripturally as definitely being beyond "the grave" and annihilation. This one needs more study.

Debra said...

Luke 16:23 defines a rich man being in torment in hell. If hell was any different than a lake of fire and torment then God would have said so. I have no mercy on those who continuously rape a baby or child and hysterically laughs in God's face.

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall NOT want... said...

Many thanks Debra for the scripture.

I couldn't go past his blatant worship of the sun, and his symbolic attire referring to himself as a "hottie"...

To be honest, once someone questions the WORD of God, they plant seeds of doubt in their listeners. Just like Satan did in the garden of evil with "hath God said...?" (Genesis 3).

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha... for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

Jesus does love us. And how do we show we love him back? By keeping his commandments (John 14:15).

The love of God towards us is conditional. There are no two ways about it.

The "traditional" churches came up with "purgatory" and the modern ones with "once saved always saved" concept. No one wants to teach on hell, judgement, and righteousness anymore. They all want the "goody goody" feeling of praise and worship on Sunday morning and "God loves you".

Our sole duty is to fear God and keep his commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Believers should purpose to live righteously in order to attain eternal life (Romans 6:23).

Anonymous said...

Hello. I will make several posts and I will tell you a little of what I know, maybe they can act as bread crumbs for you:

There are three heavens: The First is Our Sky; The Second is Space/Universe; The Third is The Abode of God and The Angels (The devil and his angels are also there, they will be cast out later.)

Sheol and Hades are synonymous, and is the abode of and for dead men (humans) only. Tartarus is a prison for a particular group of fallen angels. The Abyss and Bottomless Pit are synonymous, and is a prison for demons. The Lake of Fire and Brimstone and Gehenna are synonymous and is The Second Death.

Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Abyss/Bottomless Pit, Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Brimstone/The Second Death are all different places. Most Bibles and Church Traditions consolidates and merge these together as "Hell".

"Hell" is according to church traditions: Eternal, Everlasting, Fiery Furnace, Burning, Incredibly Smokey, Hot, Dry, Unbearable, Separated From God, Lake of Fire and Brimstone, Painful, Torment, Hopeless, etc.

Anonymous said...

Rejoicing in Heaven
1And after these things I heard a great voice of a great multitude in the heaven, saying, ‘Alleluia! the salvation, and the glory, and the honour, and the power, [is] to the Lord our God; 2because true and righteous [are] His judgments, because He did judge the great whore who did corrupt the earth in her whoredom, and He did avenge the blood of His servants at her hand;’ 3and a second time they said, ‘Alleluia;’ and her smoke doth come up — to the ages of the ages! 4And fall down did the elders — the twenty and four — and the four living creatures, and they did bow before God who is sitting upon the throne, saying, ‘Amen, Alleluia.’ 5And a voice out of the throne did come forth, saying, ‘Praise our God, all ye His servants, and those fearing Him, both the small and the great;’

The Marriage of the Lamb
6and I heard as the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, ‘Alleluia! because reign did the Lord God — the Almighty!

7may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready; 8and there was given to her that she may be arrayed with fine linen, pure and shining, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’

9And he saith to me, ‘Write: Happy [are] they who to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb have been called;’ and he saith to me, ‘These [are] the true words of God;’ 10and I fell before his feet, to bow before him, and he saith to me, ‘See — not! fellow servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren, those having the testimony of Jesus; bow before God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.’

The Rider on the White Horse
11And I saw the heaven having been opened, and lo, a white horse, and he who is sitting upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness doth he judge and war, 12and his eyes [are] as a flame of fire, and upon his head [are] many diadems — having a name written that no one hath known, except himself, 13and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God. 14And the armies in the heaven were following him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen — white and pure; 15and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty, 16and he hath upon the garment and upon his thigh the name written, ‘King of kings, and Lord of lords.’

Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet
17And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, ‘Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God, 18that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all — freemen and servants — both small and great.’

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;

20and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast — the two — to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone; 21and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which [sword] is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.

If you read this very carefully and without reading into it, you will learn of something incredible.

Anonymous said...

Satan Bound the Thousand Years
1And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand, 2and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years, 3and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; 5and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again. 6Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire
7And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, 8and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; 9and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; 10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.

The Final Judgment
11And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; 12and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls — according to their works; 13and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; 14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this [is] the second death; 15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

If you read this very carefully and without reading into it, you will learn of something incredible.

Anonymous said...

I came across the subject of Christian Universalism going back a half-dozen years or more & was subscribed for awhile to this guy's emails (prolific writer), Clyde Pilkington:

Is he right? I don't know anymore. It sounds good & much of it makes sense (but then they all make "some" sense). I've been through so many "religions," I have burn out as well. I guess if you consider them all as "stepping stones," then it's OK to "keep going forward" even though you have no idea what is next. ;)

One of their sayings is, "Does ALL really mean ALL?" referring to Scriptures (& there are more than I realized) that say God plans to save ALL -- eventually, that is. Some "get saved early" & others will get saved later > after they suffer awhile.

If you want to "stick your head in the books," Pilkington would be one such place. He's also a publisher/republisher of old hard-to-find Christian books, though he sent enough stuff by email that I never bought any books:

This WP blog he linked to on his FB page has posts from 2009-to early this year:

On his Study Shelf page, one example of others who tread the same path:

"Outcome of Infinite Grace, The (#6388) by Loyal F. Hurley. "The last enemy to be destroyed is death!" It was this verse which caused the author, a pastor, to study afresh the subject of the fate of the wicked. The three choices apparent from a surface reading of various biblical texts were eternal torment, extermination or ultimate reconciliation. The author studied to find which one was true."

And another...

"At the End of the Ages: The Abolition of Hell (#3331) by Bob Evely. Is hell forever? Most say that the righteous go to heaven, and the wicked to hell, forever! Is this what the Bible teaches? This book presents evidence that the Bible, in the original languages, reveals that one day ALL mankind will be saved. Through time our Bible translations have become biased through the official teachings of “The Church.” The author argues that teaching about an eternal hell slanders God, and it prevents many from having faith because the arguments in support of an eternal torment are illogical. Would a God of love keep many souls alive forever just to torment them because they failed to “accept Jesus Christ” in this lifetime? The author shows that the Bible does not teach this. The purpose of “the eons” (i.e., “the ages,” often mistranslated “eternity”) is to bring ALL mankind to the point where every knee bows before Him. This work is written with the average reader in mind."


"Is Hell Eternal or, Will God’s Plan Fail? (#0677) by Charles H. Pridgeon (1863-1932). “Our readers will rejoice with us at [this] publication by Charles H. Pridgeon, President of the Pittsburgh Bible Institute. A firm stand is taken for the salvation of all, based on the doctrine of the eons as revealed in the Scriptures. Many other books on this subject, lacking the light which the doctrine of the eons brings, have never seemed sufficiently conclusive to carry conviction to those who wish a scriptural basis for their belief.”


Anonymous said...


Here's another from that page Pilkington page that sounds right up your alley:

"Daily Gleanings: 365 Selections on Scriptural Truths (#1836) Editor: Clyde L. Pilkington, Jr. This book contains a collection of gleanings from some 200 different authors. These excerpts are intended to be an encouragement to those who are walking on a different path with the Lord – a journey that is “outside of the camp.” Some quotations are from beloved and trusted authors, but more often than not, they are from unusual sources. Sometimes, it is simply amazing how an author can admit in print to some grand truth that their writings and ministries otherwise generally deny. For the authors of these quotes, the truth that is conveyed by them may oddly seem “out of place”; but in some ways, the more unlikely the source, the more amazingly it testifies to the truth – and the fact that it cannot be hidden."


"Being OK with Not Being OK – Embracing God’s Design for You" … and Everyone You Know (and Don’t Know) (#1985) by Clyde L. Pilkington, Jr. For now, you’re broken, and you aren’t going to be “fixed.” Granted, you may have some days that are better than others, some circumstances that seem to indicate that you are “OK,” but the wearisome cycle simply will recur. Thus it is by design – by divine design. Father is bringing you to a place where you are OK with not being OK, where you simply rest in His current purpose and plan in your training and development for that grand and magnificent culmination that He has so wonderfully and skillfully designed especially for you – in your next life."

That title above reminds me of the popular psyche book from the 1970s, "I'm OK, You're OK," blech on that. Also, the cover of the above book has a hand making the "OK sign" or what NWO people say is the 666 sign. Can it not SOMETIMES really be the "OK sign"? I don't know anymore. I'm somewhat in the same boat as you. I OD'd on NWO stuff, so now I see it everywhere. ;)

Here's an interesting one... Wow, whoa! > >

"Another Look at 'Bible Study': The Misuse of II Timothy 2:15 and the Abuse of Christ’s Body" (#0370) by Clyde L. Pilkington, Jr.
“You continue to bless me with messages that relieve the burden.” – Illinois
“Helped me shed major bondage.”– Michigan
“What a freeing teaching.” - Pennsylvania
“Such a balm to my soul.” – Canada
“Finally relieved me of yet another religious burden.” – Poland


You had written: "...basically teaches all people in the end will come out of hell and no one will be subjected to ... burn in hell eternally..."

The Christian-Universal/Reconciliation made sense to me for awhile but then I "panicked" that it sounded too much like Purgatory & the RCC (those who get saved "later" will have to "suffer in hell awhile" but then get to "come out of it," etc.)

Anonymous said...

"The Christian Universalists seems to think He came to save us from death itself..."

That would make sense, since death came from sin & sin equals death:

"...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen. 2:17)

" by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin..." (Romans 5:12)

" sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21)

"...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10)

teshuvahmusic said...

BB, I hope this doesn't sound weird, but I'm proud of you -- for going out on a limb and publicly questioning something that I know must be HUGE for you -- and I believe our Abba in heaven is too. I agree with Anon that all of these things are "stepping stones" as we get closer and closer to Abba's path. I'm not 100% on board with Universal Reconciliation, but am pretty close, because of Scriptures like those below, not b/c of man's opinions or logic or whatever. I can believe things about HIS character and, yes, certain ministries or online teachers, etc., first gave me the kernel of the idea (but only b/c something deep inside me was questioning and prompted me to search it out), but I can hold on to that truth without having to accept anything else about such ministries as true. It's not THEIR truth.

"For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning." (Psalm 30:5)

"He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever." (Psalm 103:9)

"Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me." (Isaiah 12:1)

"In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you," Says the LORD your Redeemer." (Isaiah 54:8)

"After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."(Hosea 6:2)

"You who have shown me many troubles and distresses Will revive me again, And will bring me up again from the depths of the earth." (Psalm 71:20)

"A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up." (Ecclesiastes 3:3)

"They that sow in tears shall reap in joy." (Psalm 126:5)

It's HIS character and HIS way to bring good out of even the worst evil. A time to kill is ALWAYS followed by a time to heal! Evening is ALWAYS followed by morning (Gen. 1)! Nothing new under the the pattern He follows with His children (redemption, then cleansing, then a walk with Him & growing into His likeness) must be a template for what He plans to do with the rest of humanity and the rest of creation.

How? I have no idea. I know the Lake of Fire is real. I know I don't want to spend even one minute there, even if it's for an "age" & not "eternity." Trust me, UR has not erased my fear of Him! But it has caused me to...hmm...slow down & reflect more about the spiritual state of the people around me. And it's made me less judgmental/legalistic even as I am more serious about details in my own walk.

I feel Abba has given me a peek into the deeps of His compassion for those who are "sinning & going astray" (Heb. 5), more than when I believed in the generic "hell." It helps me see how He deals w/ each & every person as an individual. He knows exactly how to judge everything we do, b/c He sees ALL the motives of our hearts, knows when we sin in ignorance etc. (or when we sin "with a high hand," which will not go unpunished!). He knows what each of us can bear... "and a bruised reed He will NOT break, and smoking flax He will NOT quench"! And above all, HE REMEMBERS that we are but flesh, we are dust.

I hope nobody gives you a hard time for what you've posted. Praying Abba wraps His love around you tonight.

teshuvahmusic said...

The Scripture that really clinched it for me was Jeremiah 19:5: "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." The doctrine of people (including children! RCC unbaptized babies, Calvin babies who are not elect) suffering eternal torment in a fiery hell was passed down to us by none other than the Harlot that causes His people to serve the "baals" under another name (Our Lord & Our Lady, Baal & Asherah, Jesus & Mary...). I know the verse is literally talking about child sacrifice, but at a deeper level, Abba is saying the idea of fiery torture "never entered His mind." He didn't invent "hell," wicked men did!

That said... Gary Amirault is still honoring Christmas & Easter (per his videos). His demeanor reminds me of the "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors" UMC I grew up in. Just love 'em all, don't rock any boats.... He is exposing a major doctrine inherited from the RCC, but has not "come out of Her" as far as I can tell.

Nonetheless, his website has some of the best material on the internet explaining UR. "God's Kingdom Ministries" with Stephen Jones is another. There's also some stuff by J. Preston Eby. I haven't read the Pilkington guy Anon mentioned.

teshuvahmusic said...

BB, I'm adding more comments b/c there's much to address. :-) You are a deep thinker and I know you're looking past the evidence/explanations for UR to the unanswered issues.

One, UR can sound like mushy universalism if we don't keep front & center that Abba still deals with SIN, and deals with it severely. People who've been spiritually abused with the "fear of hell" (the Word calls it bondage, "those who all their lives were held under the fear of death") can go into the other ditch seeking relief. But He promises to literally burn up anything that's not of Him. Sin and even flesh can't stand in His presence. He is a consuming fire. That will be a terrifying cleansing. It's not sunshine & roses after death for unbelievers & the disobedient (even though He's conquered death & will swallow it up forever). I'm aware of the deception with C.S. Lewis & am NOT quoting him to endorse anything about him, but his oft-quoted line "not a tame lion" is actually a pretty good illustration of what I mean about the terror of the cleansing/consuming fire. Abba is love, but it's tough love.

(It says my comment is too long, so I'm splitting it into two.)

teshuvahmusic said...

(Second half)

Two, the Lake of Fire was prepared for the accuser & his messengers-- not for us. I know you don't agree with Nephilim/hybrid teachings, BB, but bear with me. For me, the jury is out on Nephilim/serpent seed/reptilian/whatever. I do believe the Nephilim of Genesis 6 were hybrids, but everyone who teaches on it (Tom Horn, LA Marzulli, etc.) is controlled opp so you can't learn much of value. I'm not trying to promote that on your blog, so please don't shut down my comment. I'm sharing one line of thought I have followed trying to reconcile all this.

satan's original deception was "ye shall be as gods." What if the mark of the beast is the same thing -- a chance to be godlike, immortal, whatever, but it's actually super-ultra-mega witchcraft that changes your DNA so you're no longer 100% human? That stuff is already in the works and I believe you've posted about it. The increase in NPDs, coldness, lack of emotions is a big part of it. Compare the teaching from evolutionary psych that we all have a "lizard brain" (survival instinct) more ancient than our "mammal brain" (emotions). Compare also the ruthless "natural selection" of alt-right thinking. We didn't have a lizard brain in the Garden of Eden. "Survival instinct" kicked in after the Fall, when we took on part of satan's nature (sin). The goal of witchcraft/occult/alchemy is to rise above emotions (weakness) with "power."

If you take the mark, your part is in the lake of fire which burneth with brimstone. Could the mark involve taking on satan's nature fully, not just in part? The sin nature in human flesh makes us subject to death. But we can be redeemed from death AND sin. Maybe a supernatural/immortal being with a sin nature can neither die, nor be redeemed?

To illustrate the depth of evil we're dealing with: LA Marzulli (controlled opp) has archaeological evidence the original Nephilim were cannibals. "Have the evildoers no knowledge, who eat up my people as men eat bread?" (Psalm 14:4) "When evildoers came upon me to devour my flesh..." (Psalm 27:2) Also check out Proverbs 30:14. NPDs (going after the weak) with teeth like knives. We are talking EVIL.

To sum up, I think He judges humans (flesh, dust) according to our nature. "As a father pities his children, so YHWH pities those who fear Him." "He does not willingly afflict, nor grieve the children of men." We sin, He corrects in love, over time.

And He judges the "evildoers" (whether literal satanic hybrids, or humans who have utterly sold themselves to evil) according to their nature. If anybody lives in burning torment forever, it would be those guys. If 100% human but 100% evil (Gen. 6:5), maybe they disappear (annihilation) once all the evil is burned up (nothing left to save!). All JMHO but I hope it helps.

teshuvahmusic said...

One more thing. Anon mentioned "stepping stones" and questioning every ministry/school of thought/idea even after gleaning truth from it. Boy, can I relate. And it's true on this too. I think I said that in my first comment. It doesn't shock me at all if the Pilkington book has an occult hand sign on cover, or if Amirault is promoting subliminal sun worship in his video (I didn't watch the whole thing; his delivery is boring, and the reference to xmas turned me off). The enemy steals truth & repackages it to lead astray. Controlled opp doesn't make truth untrue; it just means we have to dig harder & follow NO MAN.

Debra said...

This guy is mocking God and His word. He dressed in flames and the color of fire as if to say ha ha I love hell and bragged about his clothes representing hell. His fingers posed in horn hand positions while holding the paper to deceive Christian's that can't see it. How can anyone even believe this guy when we have God's word that stands solid and true. He is a dis/information agent.

Anonymous said...

As a doctrine, universal reconciliation seems a good explanation for certain verses that seem to be contradicted by eternal torment. My biggest concern about universal reconciliation is that the modern proponents are like one-issue voters who mostly care about that one thing: pushing bible translations that are otherwise corrupted, referring to Rob Bell's books as legitimate. Rob Bell is part of the doctrines-of-demons emergent movement, so anybody who actually reads his books and dares recommend them is sorely lacking in discernment!

Nevertheless, those whom I have run across so far could just be the UR equivalents of the false teachers who do teach eternal suffering; false teachers normally pick out pieces of truth as bait to mix in with their poison. So I am quite interested to see what others here have to say, those who have some level of discernment against human traditions and doctrines of demons.

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall NOT want... said...

Miss Debra,

I too so that!

teshuvahmusic said...

Agree about Rob Bell! I first questioned "hell" in a college class on Jonathan Edwards. My prof (a Calvinist) showed us a video of Rob Bell promoting his "Love Wins" book that had just come out. I felt it was to show an extreme (obviously false) view & scare us into the other extreme of Calvinistic election. Edwards is best known for his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" where he describes the flames of torment in images that rival Mary K. Baxter or Bill Wiese. Only the "elect" escape.

Edwards <-- Calvin <-- Augustine <-- Plato & the Gnostics. Augustine was a Manichean (ancient Zoroastrianism) & Neoplatonist before becoming a Christian, and incorporated those beliefs into his theology. The edifice of "Christianity" as we know it is built on a pagan foundation. "Hell" is even a pagan word, from Hel, Norse goddess of the underworld, & Kali, Hindu goddess of destruction.

My prof used Platonic philosophy & human (humanistic?) logic, not Scripture, to teach the theology of hell, just as Edwards, Calvin, & Augustine did. "God is infinitely holy. Sin is an offense against an infinite holiness; this makes it an infinite offense. Therefore, it can only be paid for with an infinite punishment. Hence, eternity in hell is required for God to be just." Show me that in Scripture???

Furthermore, these men believed the elect in heaven would be able to see the torment of the damned for all eternity AND REJOICE OVER IT. What kind of twisted thinking is this?? What happened to love your neighbor as yourself, and "GOD is not willing that any should perish" and "desires all men to be saved"??

"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" (Ezekiel 18:23) "I DO NOT TAKE PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED." (Ezekiel 33:11)

But yes, Rob Bell = false. As Anon said, bait with poison. The "emergents" (who promote LGBT, contemplative, etc.) are of demons and don't know our Abba, sad to say.

KJVmom said...

Do we always need to go back to the original languages to know what God has said? Brothers and sisters, either we have God's written and preserved Word, or we don't. This whole thing seems to be another argument that God's Word is only preserved in the original documents. So if the Bible is translated into any other language, it can't be trusted? Do we all need to learn Greek and Hebrew and a smattering of Aramaic? I believe that God has preserved His Word to this day and that He intended it to be translated into other languages. Also what about Jesus' teaching on outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth(Matt 8:12), also Matt 11:21-24; He mentions in Mark 9 "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" and hell is described as the fire that never shall be quenched. And in Rev. 20:15 " Ane whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". Rev 21:8 continues the thought. Now I do believe that Jesus died for all and God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He is merciful and compassionate, and we should be also, but He is also a holy God, and he created man with free will. We should be sad over the unsaved, and pray for their salvation. BB, I do remember you in prayer and I pray that your husband might know Jesus.

Anonymous said...

BB. The OT Israelites did teach the existence of hell. The word "hell" has been taken out of all modern bibles, but still remains in the English bible. Hell was a doctrine that was taught in almost every church up until the invention of modern bible versions. The Masoretic texts which closely resemble the texts found from the "Dead Sea scrolls" mentions hell, the word is used more in the OT than in the NT. It's mentioned 54 times in total throughout the bible..James..

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2 Sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in ther dwellings, and among them.

Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Prov 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Prov 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the chldren of men?

Prov 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied

Anonymous said...

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Ezek 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Ezek 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to their hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people

Anonymous said...

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

Anonymous said...

BB. When you hear people's beliefs about what they call Hades compare it to Greek mythology. Romes version of hell is more Greek mythology than biblical truths. Satan does not reign in hell, it's where he will spend eternity, even after death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. I posted all 54 bible verses that mention hell. I'm sure you can see how the OT and NT description of hell are the same. The NT gives us more insight into hell as more was revealed through Christ Jesus and his Word. I'm not sure if it's modern Judaism that rejects the idea of hell, and this is where the denial of it being an OT teaching originated or not. its something to look into. I do know that papal Catholicism has perverted the idea of hell like they have every biblical teaching. To them Satan is in hell ruling and tormenting people. The bible says this is the place where he will be tormented for eternity.....James

Anonymous said...

Teshuvahmusic. The Norse mythological being Hel was a being. The Hell of scripture is a place. There is no similarities. This idea is akin to those who believe the name of Jesus derives from Zeus. It's all wordplay. I posted all scriptures that mention the word hell. Please read them. It's a true biblical doctrine.......James

Anonymous said...

Anon on June 23 at 1:39pm. Scripture speaks of two deaths. The body and the spirit. It speaks of people being "twice dead". Jesus being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world defeated both. In John 8:51 Jesus said if you keep his saying you will never see death. How many people kept his sayings of believing on him for everlasting life and body has rotted in the ground? I'd say every single one of them. He saved us from the spiritual death by giving us heavenly salvation. Believers bodies will raise from the dead at his second coming thus defeating the physical death.....James

Anonymous said...

Teahuvahmusic. You're taking scripture out of context. God is slow to anger and plenteous in mercy to his children. It mentions nothing of God giving mercy to people in hell. Every scripture you quoted you're doing this. Why?
Psalm 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

8 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him.

Eileen said...

I think KJV Mom and Anonymous have given very good insight and advice. We need to get our answers from the Bible. And if we start doubting what the Bible says, then we are on a slippery slope. We might not always understand everything, but in time God is faithful to show us. We will never be more compassionate than God. Thank you for all the scripture that you shared. That is our measurement, our guide (a light unto our path). Let's keep our eyes on Jesus. "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

teshuvahmusic said...

Shalom, James, let's back up a bit. You're misrepresenting what I said. Also, some of what you said to refute me is not factually correct. If I take the Spanish word "dia" and say it means "night," does that make it so? No, in the original language it still means "day." A Spanish speaker who writes that word in a book will mean "day."

(1) You listed 31 references that contain the English word "hell." I checked all 31 verses against a concordance. They all contain the Hebrew word "sheol," which means "the grave." The only way you can make "sheol" mean a fire, torment, eternal darkness, or ANYthing except "the place where dead bodies go" is to insert your own beliefs about what "hell" means into the Bible verses containing "sheol."

(2) Yes, "hell" does come from Hel. To be specific, hell and Hel share the same root word in an older language. I'm putting a couple of sources in a separate comment for space.

(3) No, modern Judaism is not the source of people rejecting hell. Modern Judaism has gone far afield from the Hebrew Bible (Torah/OT) and replaced it with the "oral law." The ancient Hebrews, before there was a religion of "Judaism," believed dead people went to "the grave" (sheol). This is what (I believe) the Biblical record, written in the language those people spoke, clearly shows. Around the time of Jesus, Jews (followers of Judaism) started to believe in conscious torment after death for the wicked. I am not sure when in history Jewish thought swung away from "hell" again. Most likely, modern Jews (modern meaning after the Middle Ages) wanted to distance themselves from any teachings associated with the Catholic Church, since the RCC was persecuting them. I think there may be currently sects of Judaism (possibly Kabbalists?) that believe/teach some sort of hell, but not sure.

(4) Not a factual issue, but I'm confused by something you said. I didn't know the RCC taught Satan reigns in hell. I've only ever heard that from the Mary K. Baxter types. Bill Wiese also portrays demons as having free reign in hell to torment people. I would like to know more about Catholic teachings on hell.

I'm glad to look at other information you might present. Please, let's stick to facts. I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers. I believe I said that in my first post: I'm still figuring this out, not on board 100% with UR, but I do see a lot of places in Scripture that seem to support it.

Peace to you,

teshuvahmusic said...

Sources on the etymology of hell (not "scholarly," but they make my point):

From the website "Norse Mythology Dot Org":
"The names of Hel and Hell...come from the same root in the Proto-Germanic language, which is an ancestor of both Old Norse and, by way of Old English, modern English. That common root has been reconstructed by modern scholars as *haljo, 'concealed place,' and words stemming from *haljo seem to have been used to denote the underworld in virtually all Germanic languages. We modern English speakers call the Christian concept of a land of damnation 'Hell' because the concept was called hel or helle in Old English. Presumably, hel/helle originally referred to the same kind of Germanic pagan underworld as the Norse Hel, and Christian missionaries to the Anglo-Saxons used the closest word they could find in Old English to refer to Satan’s realm." (link: BB, if links are not allowed, please delete so my comment can be published.)

From "Online Etymology Dictionary":
"Old English hel, helle, 'nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death,' from Proto-Germanic *haljo 'the underworld' (source also of Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja 'hell'). Literally 'concealed place' (compare Old Norse hellir 'cave, cavern'), from PIE root *kel- (1) 'to cover, conceal, save.' The English word may be in part from Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija 'one who covers up or hides something')....Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna." (link: BB, if links are not allowed, please delete so my comment can be published.)

Even a basic dictionary such as Webster's will show you the connection in the "etymology" section of the entry.

AW said...

Biblebeliever, I'm glad you are okay asking the hard questions... too many people aren't. God is faithful as we ask in faith, but I'm also reassured (if that's the right word) that you understand what's at stake and how many others have shipwrecked their faith by embracing false answers. I will be praying that God guide and keep you as you search for the truth.

I'll also share just a bit from my own studies, and I'm glad James mentioned the fact that there are TWO deaths. IMO, that's where 'Christian Universalists' get completely turned around and arrive at the wrong answer.

When Adam sinned, sin and death entered the world--both physical death and spiritual death. Because of that, all of us are born spiritually dead until we believe in Jesus and are given spiritual life (what Jesus called 'born of the spirit'). And all of us will physically die (except for a few faithful who may be alive at the time of the first resurrection).

BUT, is that actually the 'death' Jesus came to save us from? I don't think so and here is why from scripture: God gave His law in order to reveal our (already existent) sin and the law carries a sentence of death for all who break it. This covenant of the law is what Jesus kept in our place since we couldn't and being sinless, He took our place and died as God's law demands.

Galatians 3 says "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’ But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for ‘the just shall live by faith’… Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” — Gal 3:10-11,13-14

I go into more detail about this in my bible study on Jesus' fulfillment of the Old and New Covenants (parts 1, 2, & 3. Perhaps it will be helpful as you search the scriptures for answers.

It is this 'Death' from which Christ came to save all who put their faith in Him. This is why those who believe in Him are part of the First Resurrection (the "resurrection of the just" referred to by Jesus in Luke 14:14 and by Martha in John 11:24). We are told in Revelation 20 that those who take part in the First Resurrection are not subject to the Second Death.

BUT, the 'Second Death' of Revelation 20:14 is where 'Death and Hell' are cast into the Lake of Fire, along with all of the dead previously in 'hell' whose names are not found in the book of life (Rev 20:15). In that sense, those souls do not remain in hell forever... but to say everyone gets saved from 'death' in the end is not scriptural unless one counts those souls as 'alive' even as they are in the Lake of Fire as part of the Second Death.

Being spared the second death is what scripture refers to as 'eternal life' and it comes only by putting our faith in Jesus (and I trust the Lord to be perfectly righteous in judging those who have never heard the gospel as well as all those who lived before Jesus came).

Anonymous said...

I can see this thread of replies may end up being one of the longest ever. The topic of "hell" is a "hot" one. ;)

Most of those OT verses re hell are obviously referring to the grave. They really need to be read in context & not just assuming the word hell means a deep down hot fiery abode.

And there's nothing wrong with looking at the Hebrew or Greek origins, especially for words like hell. In the OT it is most often Sheol, the grave, the abode of the dead. Ditto in the NT, there's Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, all translated as the same hell word, but they are not the same. For accuracy's sake, why put the word "hell" for EVERYTHING where that was not the original word?

For example, two of those verses in the above lists were re Jesus going to Hell, ie, the grave (obviously & temporarily):

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Was Jesus burning up in a fiery hell for three days/nights? No. "Corruption" comes when the body decays in the grave. The prophecy was the Lord's body would not see "corruption" because he wouldn't be in the grave long enough for that to happen.

Better to look up every instance of hell & look at the original Greek/Hebrew in the OT & NT than to assume they all mean the same thing.

Anonymous said...

Teshubahmusic. This is the problem that concordances give. They are not dictionaries to retranslate the bible as you see fit. People use them as such and their doctrine starts to change. concordances are suppose to be used to give a person examples of verses that use a common root word. Concordances give a list of words that have a similar meaning, then people like you pick the word from said list that best fits their doctrine. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't speak Hebrew and cannot read it, so what's the point in "going back to the Hebrew" when you don't understand the original language? The fact is the English bible teaches of an eternal punishment of hellfire called hell. You reject this idea for some reason, and would go to any lengths in an attempt to disprove it. my bible (KJV) uses the word hell in the OT not Sheol. The only bibles that use this word are modern translations. Also the concordance you're using uses Alexandrian texts to attempt to define words from the texts receptus (Strongs). You're being dishonest in your definition using sources that best fit your doctrine like mythological definitions. The bible is not Norse mythology. The Websters 1828 dictionary tells us what the Hebrew word Sheol really means in context of the bible, and that it a place souls go after death. we know this place called hell is a place of torment because Jesus Christ said it was many times. Jesus talks more about hell than anyone in the scriptures. It's called "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth". In Jude it talks about the hellfire that God brought down on Sodom and Gomorrah as a picturing to those who likewise choose to reject God in favor of that way of life. We know it's a place of torment and unbelievable heat from Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazurus. Just because YOU deny this biblical doctrine doesn't mean it's not biblical. People like you always attempt to retranslate the bible because you don't like what it teaches, the concept of the biblical hell doesn't sit well with you and it shouldn't. This is where the fear of the Lord comes in and people get saved by believing on Jesus Christ to save them from the penalty of sin. The only way anyone can reject hell as an eternal place of punishment is if they reject the whole NT and try and retranslate the OT using concordances.The NT gives us more insight into the OT as this was one of its purposes. Also your point about Spanish meaning this or that really means nothing in the context of the discussion because we are all speaking English here, and reading an English bible, correct? I'll paste the Websters 1828 definition of hell and we'll let the readers decide.....James

HELL, noun

1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matthew 10:28. Luke 12:5.

Sin is hell begun, as religion is heaven anticipated.

2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Psalms 16:10. Jonah 2:2.

3. The pains of hell temporal death, or agonies that dying persons feel, or which bring to the brink of the grave. Psalms 18:5.

4. The gates of hell the power and policy of Satan and his instruments. Matthew 16:18.

5. The infernal powers.

While Saul and hell cross'd his strong fate in vain.

6. The place at a running play to which are carried those who are caught.

7. A place into which a tailor throws his shreds.

8. A dungeon or prison.

Anonymous said...

Teshuvahmusic. I'm not "misrepresenting what you said". You are trying to say the bible does not teach of an eternal hell that is a place of punishment, and I'm saying the bible does teach of such a place. You're trying to take the stance that what believers refer to as "hell" is nothing more than pagan superstition that was somehow incorporated into Christianity. I've heard all this before from "Hebrew roots" and "seventh day Adventists". I'm sure you fit into one category or maybe both. the name of the Messiah has always been Jesus, not "yeshua" or "yahshua" or "yahashua" or the literal seventy other ways false believers like to use these days. I'll assume you believe this from your use of Yiddish (Hebrew) words like "shalom" or even your user name......James

Anonymous said...

Have you checked out the work of Edward Fudge? Chris Dates excellent website 'Re-thinking Hell'?

I think the middle ground of 'eternal' meaning the everlasting consequences, rather than everlasting torment, as being more Biblical than other doctrines. Romanism invented the doctrine of everlating punishment from what I understand.

I would urge you to check out these sites / books for further info on this. There is a Scriptural basis for the argument that hell is not everlasting, rather that the damned are consumed and burnt up.

Blessings to you. John (UK)

Anonymous said...

Music. The language of the NT is Greek. There is no proof at all it was originally written in Hebrew, I can prove out of the bible that all of the books MAYBE except for Matthew was written in Greek. All of Pauls letters were written to churches in Greece or modern day Turkey. Luke and Acts were written by the same person (Luke) and addressed to the same person named Theophilis. Theophilis is a Greek name. So your assumption that the NT was somehow written in Hebrew is false. Greek was the universal language at that time. It's the language of the Roman Empire. Jesus lived in Galilee, which was a Gentile town, but some people want to give the impression that even though he lived among Gentiles that he could not speak their language. Jesus was traveling through Tyre and Sidon and a Caananite (gentile) woman came to him and recognized him as the Messiah, her daughter was possessed. Jesus had no problems communicating with her. People don't read their bible and this is why so many false ideas and doctrines like you're promoting starts creeping in. I urge everyone to stay in Gods Word and not let phonies who want nothing more than to gain proselyts to start influencing your faith and beliefs. Please don't believe anything I say, look it up for yourselves.....James

Anonymous said...

Anonymous. the bible says Jesus was in the heart (center) of the earth for three days and three nights. It also says that Jesus was NOT buried in the ground, but was placed in a tomb where they had to remove a stone that was covering its entrance. When the bible says he was in hell thats what it means. He paid the penalty of sin for us. If hell truly meant grave it would have been translated as such. It's people like you who are trying to retranslate the bible. There are quite a few on this blog who like to do this it seems. What you're saying is your translation is better than the scholars that took 7 years to translate just by picking up a Strongs concordance. It truly boggles my mind when I hear this from people. Please read the preface of Strongs concordance, I urge you to do so promptly. He admits ITS NOT A DICTIONARY. He simply gives a root word and examples of words with similar meanings. This is where people like you come in and replace the root word with one of the maybe dozens of example that best fit your ideas. This isn't studying. Read the bible and let it define itself. This is where a concordance can come in handy as usually the first time a word is used in the bible it gives the definition. The first time hell is used is duet 32:22. You notice the word "anger" is used in context. You are not using a concordance the way it was intended to be used. It's a tool not a dictionary......James

Anonymous said...

Jesus is the Shepard and in shall not want. The job of a Shepard is to make sure his sheep never get lost or go astray, this is why The Lord calls himself this. To say one can lose their salvation is basically saying Jesus has failed at his job and what he promised, and he promised that he would keep his sheep. Deny eternal security (once saved always saved) is promoting works salvation because, you have to do something to get your salvation back. It's unbiblical and it's false doctrine. The bible tells us that the believer is sealed, and that God keeps us.....James

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one

Isaiah 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Isaiah 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young

Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present youfaultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Ephesians 1:30 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed

Luke 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her

Anonymous said...

BB I am glad that you addressed this as I have wondered with your having come out of the RCC that you would still cling to their pagan teaching of eternal damnation.
Having been raised in the SBC and a Christian since very young I was brought up on same traditional church teaching on eternal hell but after leaving church system some time ago have read more on this question and am convinced through scripture rightly interpreted that hell is not eternal. Through readings by such bible scholars as Andrew J. Jukes, A.P. Adams and George MacDonald and Ray Prinzing to name a few that hell belongs to God, as does the devil and He is working all things together for His praise and glory and will not allow one of His created beings to end up owning more than half of His creation. He knows how to eventually reconcile everyone and all things as taught by Paul back unto Himself. When God was ready for Paul to meet His Son on the Damascus road Paul was forever changed in the twinkling of an eye. As Paul confessed he was chief of sinners, and yet when God was ready for Paul to repent and be changed it happened! I think there is confusion about sin. God hates all sin. There is no little sin, average sin and big sin in his sight. All sin is abhorrent to Him and He would have all of His creation delivered from the wages of sin which is death. We are born into death when we take our first breath on this planet but praise Him that before He created anything He had a plan through His Son Jesus Christ to bring back unto Himself His whole creation in His own time and way. Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved and Jesus did say when He was lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Him. I do not agree with all that the website says but he does carry good articles on this subject and I would recommend A.P. Adams article on Sodom being saved. I never have heard any other preacher preach on this.
I agree that the word Christian Universalism is not an all inclusive word because many that embrace this belief leave out the Justice and wrath of God against all evil and sin, and do away with hell or a place of purification and discipline. There will surely be a place of groaning and nashing of teeth as souls realize they chose the wrong road and missed the total revelation of God through His precious and mighty Son Jesus Christ. But in the end every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. What a day of rejoicing that will be when all the 100 sheep have been brought back into the fold.
I was glad to see on this blog that there are Christians questioning this false doctrine of eternal damnation and though some may not see clearly now God will bring us into all truth when we are ready to receive it and tho we may see through a mirror now darkly then we will see face to face and we shall know as we are known. For now and for myself I continue to pray for His Kingdom to come and His will be done. Even so come Lord Jesus! GOD BLESS!

teshuvahmusic said...

The distinction between the first & second death (and first & second resurrection), as AW brought up, is one aspect I'm still wrestling with.

I see UR as realistic primarily b/c of the translation problem of rendering sheol, hades, gehenna, tartaroo as "hell" when they don't all mean that (and the resulting confusion with the Lake of Fire, which is different); the mistranslation of "aeonian" as "eternity" instead of "ages" in the NT (it literally means "of the eons"); and the resonance of UR with Scriptures that say His mercy endures forever, mercy triumphs over judgment, He has not punished us as we deserve nor rewarded us according to our iniquities, etc. Again, it's about HIS character, not man's reasoning that dislikes "hell."

With the conventional view of hell, you are left with two options, both of which make YHWH an ogre. Either He has elected some people to be saved and left the rest to burn in hell forever when He COULD HAVE saved them (but didn't want to, b/c He wants to "show off" His wrath against sin) -- Calvinist. Or He will condemn billions of people who didn't "accept Jesus" for the sole reason that they had never heard of Him before they died -- free will. Either YHWH is responsible for those souls being lost, or Christians didn't reach them all in time so it's our fault. Years ago my parents followed a WOF teacher who said, "The souls of people on earth is [are] in the hands of the church." This thinking puts a guilt trip and enormous burden on believers. Even if we all preached from dawn to dusk, we couldn't reach all the people in the world.

So, if the Lake of Fire is in fact permanent, I agree with AW that He will be perfectly righteous in judging those who didn't HAVE a chance in this life to surrender their lives to Him.

On the other hand, He MAY make a distinction between humans (who are "but flesh") and the host of 100% evil fallen messengers led by satan, for whom the LOF was actually prepared/intended.

teshuvahmusic said...

Anon, LOL about longest thread ever. I'm trying to reign myself in so I'm not the one responsible! ;)

Good point that Jesus/Yahushua went to the grave, not hell. Some WOF guy (Benny Hinn? Kenneth Copeland?) teaches He took our punishment by actually suffering in hell. Well, even that begs the question: if it took Him only 3 days/nights to fill up our punishment so we don't have to take any, why do "the lost" have to burn in there forever? Shouldn't they get out after they've paid 3 days/nights?

About it being ok to examine the actual Greek & Hebrew, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink....

teshuvahmusic said...

Peace (yes, peace!), James, please take a good look at my comments and then at yours. You are misrepresenting me AGAIN, on multiple points. I hope this doesn't come across as confrontational, but I feel the only way to communicate with you is to be extremely blunt.

(1) Did I say I used Strong's concordance?

(2) Did I say I used a concordance for definitions? BB gave us the definition of "sheol" in her post. All I did was confirm that "sheol" was used in every OT verse you cited; and in fact it was. So, every verse you cited must mean THE SAME THING.

(3) Where do I "replace the root word with one of the maybe dozens of example that best fit your [my] ideas?" Sheol means the grave. I advocate using an English word that also means the grave, instead of "replacing" the grave with a word that means fiery torment.

(4) Where did I say the NT was written in Hebrew? You speak of "your [my] assumption that the NT was somehow written in Hebrew." The assumption is on you, James.

(5) Please reread what I said about the Spanish language. It was meant as an illustration. Kind of like saying, "A rose by any other name will smell as sweet." Calling a rose "skunk cabbage" doesn't change the smell of the rose...does it?

(5) I am free to call Him by an English transliteration of His Hebrew name (YHShUA' --> Yahushua). You are free to call Him by an English transliteration of the Greek respelling of His Hebrew name as used in the Greek NT manuscripts and later respelled in modern English (YHShUA' --> IESOUS --> IESVS --> JESUS). Both are ok. It might surprise you that I use both at different times. I mean no offense to you by using one or the other! We are both free in Christ! Enjoy it!

(6) I am neither Hebrew Roots, nor SDA. Nice try.

I would like to stop playing comment tag with you so we can both engage in fruitful discussion on this board. Some here are truly looking for clarification on unanswered questions. You seem to have an ax to grind.

teshuvahmusic said...

Anon 1:54 pm, thanks for posting those additional names of people to read. I'm unfamiliar with Jukes, Adams, Prinzing. I will say I'm cautious of George MacDonald. He was a major literary influence on C.S. Lewis (big deceiver), and a writer of "faerie romances" (fairy tales), including one about Lilith (Adam's mythical "first wife" from the Kabbalah)! The other Anon mentioned it's hard to feel confident in UR, even if it has (or seems to have) Biblical support, simply because everyone who promotes it is a false teacher in some other way. That's how I feel. Why is there no one out there teaching it who is genuinely trustworthy? (Does that mean it's actually not true?)

Anonymous said...

There is no way that the "nether parts of the earth" means six feet under, or just being buried in the ground. In Jonah 2 it is giving us a picturing of what Christ would eventually suffer and it mentions "bars" like its a prison, just as the NT portrays hell. It's a prison and a place of suffering. This is only a sample of the many scriptures that portray hell. The only way anyone can not see this is if they thoroughly reject the notion of hell and nothing can persuade them otherwise. Paul says in Ephesians 4 that Jesus also descended into the LOWER parts of the earth. Psalms says "for thou wilt not leave my SOUL in hell". it makes a distinction between his body and soul. His soul wouldn't be left in hell, nor would his body see corruption by the physical death. He defeated both deaths at the same time. Again, scripture talks of people being "twice dead". I do have an axe to grind when people try and teach false doctrine that is contrary to the bible. I'm suppose to earnestly contend for the faith. I do not use profanity, I'm just saying you're teaching false doctrine. Hebrew roots and SDA is not biblical Christianity. They are both a pseudo Christian cult. My speech is crude and I'm blunt with my points. David said he "hated every false way" and so do I..........James ......Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel

Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Ezekiel 26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

Matthew 11:24 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

Ezekiel 31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit

Bible Believer said...

Thank you everyone for your input, it does give me a lot of food for thought, I do plan to come back and study and answer in more detail but wanted to thank everyone for their responses here and adding in the scriptures.

Anonymous said...

We have to remember there is always a bigger picture with these globalist., Universal=unitarian=communitarian. Mark Zuckergreenberg had a video where he was touting community. Unless we all act alike, think a like, how can they make us conform into their constructed society? You have to manipulate minds in order to shape them into robots to do your bidding. You cannot manage masses unless you neatly group them together like haystacks. So mason preachers have the sheep under control and the globalists are defining what you believe rather than the word of God. This firehead scarf man is nothing more than a plant.

Anonymous said...

--"...Jesus was NOT buried in the ground, but was placed in a tomb where they had to remove a stone that was covering its entrance."

A GRAVE is wherever a DEAD person ends up, whether placed in a TOMB, or inserted into the DIRT, or dropped into the SEA, etc. Common sense. (Obama & his boys claimed to have dumped Osama bin Laden into the SEA. That became HIS "grave.")

--"If hell truly meant grave it would have been translated as such."

Not necessarily:

Acts 2:27 re Jesus being in hell:
Greek: hades
Usage in the KJV:
hell 10, grave 1

Matthew 27:53 re the saints who came out of their graves after Jesus was resurrected:
Greek: mnemeion
Usage in the KJV:
sepulchre 29, grave 8, tomb 5

Sources at the Linked Word Project:
TDNT - Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT - Theological Word Book of the Old Testament

--"It's people like you who are trying to retranslate the bible."

Don't blame me if Bible translators were inconsistent. I wasn't even there.

Think like a Berean, not a legalist.

Anonymous said...

--"It's [hell] a prison and a place of suffering."

So you think Christ was required to suffer MORE after his death (the torture on the cross wasn't enough suffering, & dying/death itself wasn't enough suffering)?

--"Psalms says 'for thou wilt not leave my SOUL in hell'. it makes a distinction between his body and soul."

Hell in that verse (Psalms 16:10) is SHEOL.
SOUL in that verse is NEPHESH:
Usage in the KJV: soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47. Total: 753.
--soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
--that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
--living being
--living being (with life in the blood)
--the man himself, self, person or individual
--seat of the appetites
--seat of emotions and passions
--activity of mind; dubious
--activity of the will; dubious
--activity of the character; dubious

So take your pick on which part of a person goes to sheol/hell. The definition ranges from the entire person to just his mind or heart or "inner being," etc.

Animals are also called SOULS (nephesh) in Genesis.

What creeps me is that a separate soul that floats off to heaven or hell at death just so happens to be what the RCC teaches. Did they actually get something right? ;)

The SPIRIT or breath-of-life (ruach or ruwach/Hebrew; Greek/pneuma) is not the same as the word SOUL.

1st Thess. 5:23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT (Greek/pneuma) and SOUL (Greek/psuche) and BODY (Greek/soma) be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
--That's KJV, but some translations use MIND for the Greek psuche/Soul. Mind is also one of the definitions.

What's great about learning a little Biblical Greek here & there is that many medical words come from those same words:

--SPIRIT > Pneuma > Pneumonia > breath/lungs/breathing.
--SOUL > Psuche > Psyche > mind/psychology, etc.
--BODY > Soma > Somatic, having to do with the body.

(Of course my favorite Biblical Greek/medical word, not mentioned in those verses, is pharmakeia, since I loathe Big Pharma with a passion.)

So, per James' interpretation, the Lord's BODY stayed in the tomb/dead but his PSUCHE/mind/"SOUL" went "lower" into a "suffering" hell (?). I guess so his "mind" or heart or "inner self" could be tormented some more beyond the cross? (I don't buy it, but you're free to believe what you want.)

Paul wrote that Christ said he DIED, was DEAD (1st Cor. 15:12; Romans 10:7).

Paul also wrote in 1 Cor. 15:4, that Christ was "BURIED." So it's reasonable to conclude that being put to rest in a tomb is the same as being BURIED in a grave:

SOUL/psuche in Ps. 16:10 would seem to say that the Lord in his ENTIRE SELF, his entire person, his entire being, would not be left in "hell"/sheol - the grave/tomb/death, but he would be resurrected. If he visited the "hell" immediately AT or very shortly AFTER his resurrection, with his entire self going there for a quick visit to grab the righteous & lead them out of their tombs, to "lead captivity captive," that would make sense. Maybe that's where he had been when Mary showed up looking for him:

Matthew 27-KJV:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Anonymous said...

BTW, that 1828 Webster's Dictionary gives EIGHT definitions for hell, all "legitimate," I presume. Definition #2 is what we've been saying:

"2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Psalms 16:10. Jonah 2:2."

No mention of torment nor suffering behind Door #2. ;)

Why use a Webster's anyway? Why not a Biblical lexicon?


Re: the Rich Man & Lazarus - in Luke 16:

To find out TO WHOM the Lord was speaking, you have to go all the way back to the beginning of chapter 15:

"15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable UNTO THEM, saying..."

The greatest Bible study tip I ever learned was to read scripture IN CONTEXT:

“It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, but OF WHOM and TO WHOM, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goeth before and what followeth after."
--Myles Coverdale (1488 – 20 January 1569), was an English ecclesiastical reformer chiefly known as a Bible translator, preacher and, briefly, Bishop of Exeter (1551-1553).

--Matthew 10:5-6: "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Matthew 15:24: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

--Acts 13:47: "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth."
--2nd Timothy 1:11: "Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles."
--1 Corinthians 11:1: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

Paul wrote re God's wrath, perishing, & being "damned" ("OF WHOM") > those of unbelief or the wicked, but isn't it interesting he not once used the word hell? Why didn't our apostle warn us believing-Gentiles re the burning fiery hell of torment?

Anonymous said...

--"Some WOF guy (Benny Hinn? Kenneth Copeland?) teaches He took our punishment by actually suffering in hell." --Teshuvah

Yes, I remember hearing about that. I can't think of one scripture that prophesied any such thing, but there were many others that described his "stripes," the cross, being pierced, the scowlers around him like dogs, his robe being gambled away, etc. And Paul preached, "I preach Christ & him crucified," not, "I preach Christ & him crucified & him being tormented in hell."

--"Well, even that begs the question: if it took Him only 3 days/nights to fill up our punishment so we don't have to take any, why do "the lost" have to burn in there forever? Shouldn't they get out after they've paid 3 days/nights?"

Good questions but I don't know the answers. I suppose some might say it has to do with Justice, that the Lord can't let the bad guys off too easy because it wouldn't be fair to those who believed vs. those who refused & caused the believers harm & persecution, etc. But then again, Christ's sacrifice was supposedly to pay for all the sins of the world for all time. But for those who don't accept the free gift of forgiveness through Christ, then they have to pay for their own sins. Yet, the payment for sinning, as God first said to Adam & Eve in Genesis, was death/returning to dust, period... no mention of death PLUS torment in the afterlife.

I think the "secret" is in the addendum to Rev. 21:8, "...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Second Death as compared to what? The First Death? What was the First Death? > Adamic Death from which there was offered the hope of the resurrection through Christ:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." --1st Cor.15:22.

Maybe those who go into the Second Death are simply lost (&/or fried if you prefer) forever with no hope of resurrection.

All I know for certain is "The Gospel" "by which also ye/we are saved." It has 3 components:
--Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.
--He was buried.
--He rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, & was seen of many.
1 Corinthians 15:1-5:

Believing (or not) that Christ suffered more torment in hell is not part of the equation.

AW said...

Teshuvahmusic, whether the Lake of Fire is eternal or not (I happen to believe it is), unfortunately we know at least some humans go there along with the devil and the angels for whom it was created.

Matt 25:41 - Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand [the goats], Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Rev 14:9-11 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name'.

- - -

I don't know how a pre-judgment distinction is made between the righteous and the unrighteous, but Jesus' story (I do not think it a parable) of Lazarus and the Rich Man makes me think that even just 'hell' as 'the grave' (hades vs. gehenna) isn't a pleasant place to be, even if it is not forever (that is, when 'the grave' gives up its dead and is itself cast into the Lake of Fire).

It may be that the 'hell fire' of which Jesus spoke in Mark 9 ("Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched") refers to the eventual destination of the Lake of Fire. From my own bible studies, I think is Tophet (located in the Valley of Hinnom - the 'hinnom' from which the Greek word of Gehenna used in Mark 9 is derived).

Tophet was where the children of Judah offered their children to Molech (Semetic M-L-K for 'king') by fire (Jer 7:31) and it is reserved for the beast and false prophet when the breath of the Lord first ignites the Lake of Fire (from the following verses):

2 Thess 2:8 - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming

Isa 11:4 - But with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked.

Isa 30:27-28,33 - Behold, the Name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with His anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: His lips are full of indignation, and His tongue as a devouring fire: And His breath, as an overflowing stream [of brimstone, see vs 33], shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. ...For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; He hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Isa 66:23-24 - [After Armegeddon, in Jerusalem] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

AW said...

The breath of the Lord as an overflowing stream of brimstone is an (literally) awesome bible study. It both begins and ends the Day of the Lord... begins by unleashing delusion/deception (the 'seive of vanity' in Isa 30:28 that causes the people to err), which we know from Daniel 7:10 begins when 'the books are opened' (and that requires the seals of Rev 6 to be opened).

Dan 7:10 - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him [the Ancient of Days]: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

As we saw above from Isa 30, 2 Thess 2, and Isa 11, it is by the breath of the Lord that 'the Wicked' is destroyed (we know from Rev 19 that the beast and false prophet go to the Lake of Fire alive/early). And all those 'unclean birds/evil spirits' that Babylon is filled with, they are also gathered by the breath of the Lord to their everlasting destination of the Lake of Fire (which may either stretch all the way to Idumea or it is Idumea that builds/sets up what is destroyed in Tophet... haven't quite figured that out yet, but suspect the latter... that Idumea = Babylon, given Jer 50:39 and Isa 13:21 which, like the following verse, are both about Babylon becoming a spiritual desolation full of unclean creatures prior to her physical destruction).

Rev 18:2 - And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Isa 34:8-11,14-17 - For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and He shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness... The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for My mouth it hath commanded, and His spirit it hath gathered them. And He hath cast the lot for them, and His hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Cormorants, bitterns, owls, ravens, and vultures are all unclean birds representing the evil spirits to whom the Lord divides their eternal inheritance by lot in the Lake of Fire just as He originally divided the children of Israel their inheritance by lot in the Promised land. None will lack their mate (hebrew word for companion), which includes the people that go there with them.

There're actually a few more scriptures about the breath of the Lord, but my comment is already long enough!

Anonymous said...

Anon July 4 2017 at 3:22 PM. It all comes down to what bible you're reading. The English bible (KJV) does in fact teach that Jesus literally went to hell. Paul said he descended to the lower parts of the earth. The lower parts of the earth cannot equate to being placed in a tomb. Jesus was not buried in the ground as they had to remove the stone that blocked the entry to where his body laid.....James

teshuvahmusic said...

AW, thanks for your comments about the "breath." You've given me more to study/think about.

Grammy G said...

James....I read the KJV and nowhere do I read Jesus went to Hell. That is the deceptive Word of Faith movement so prevalent in the church today. That movement continually spews false teachings and this one in particular eludes to the fact that Christ's crucifixion was not enough, that He had to go to Hell and suffer with all the sinners. The wages of sin is death. HE was without sin. He said to the thief on the Cross, "This day, you shall be with me in Paradise" Luke 23:39-43). Is Paradise Hell? Christ's atoning work was finished on the Cross. Hell, death and the grave were swollowed up in victory. John 19:30, "It is finished!" To add anything more to the finished work of Christ is sin and teaching of a false gospel. He descended to lead captivity captive: the OT saints in Paradise who died before Christ, but believing in God. This alone preached a message to those awaiting judgment when they were not taken with Him. Whether in a tomb with a stone, or a hole in the ground, matters not, as neither can contain a soul. Please read Eph. 4:8-10 ,Luke 23:39-43, Ps. 9:17, Mark 9:42-48, asking the Spirit of God to reveal Truth to you. Watch doctrines of men and perpetuating false gospels. The Apostles Creed is false gospel as it states He descended into Hell. A creed of man, trying to fit all 66 books into a little box for us to recite with vain repetition which, God hates. Be careful what you grab ahold of and bring forth as Truth. Blessings to you all!

Anonymous said...

Grammy. So when Paul said Jesus also "descended to the lower parts of the earth" what was he meaning? It couldn't mean the grave as Jesus was not buried in the ground. You act as though this doctrine is new and has never been heard of before. The fact is that it has been taught well before any of the new bible versions were invented. It is you who are preaching a false gospel where the OT "saints" didn't go to heaven when they died. Jesus explained to Nicodemus in John 3 that he was omnipresent claiming that he was both on earth and in heaven at the same time. Acts and Psalms CLEARLY state that his SOUL wouldn't be left in hell. Since you are claiming that this simply means that he wouldn't remain dead, then you're denying that the soul enters either heaven or hell when the body dies since his soul did not remain there. So what happens, our soul just remains dead as seventh day Adventists claim? Jesus paid for our sin debt. He tasted death for all men, what does this imply? It couldn't mean physical death as ALL men will taste of the physical death if only for a season. That doesn't make much sense does it? Jesus tasted death for all man, but yet those same people will also taste death themselves? No, Jesus tasted the second death as well so those who believe will never have to taste it not even for a season. Jesus said those who believe on him IS passed from death unto life, this doesn't make much sense when looking at it from a temporal perspective as like I stated above, everyone's (all but those who "are alive and remain) body will see physical corruption in the form of decay, this is why we will be given a new glorified body. Paul likened it to planting a seed. I find it ironic that I'm given the title of false prophet when you're preaching a false gospel of "paradise" that is nowhere in the bible......James

Jesus Christ is omnipresent .......John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

Anonymous said...

Grammy. Jesus is omnipresent, those who meet Gods wrath will do so in the presence of the Lord.......revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

Grammy G said...

James, let me first make it clear that I did not call you a false prophet. I was merely referring to The Word of Faith movement which falsely teaches Jesus went to Hell to get the keys of Hell, Death and the Grave from Satan. It is an unbiblical teaching. I am sorry you took it personally!

I am not teaching a false gospel of Paradise. It appears 3 times in Scripture but I shall focus on Rev. 2:7 for the time being. This is one of Jesus statements to The Churches. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what The Spirit saith unto the churches: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Jesus told the thief on the Cross that he would be with Him in paradise in Luke 23:43.

Jesus is Omnipresent as He is God incarnate as Anon above pointed out. You can get into divisive disagreements about God's intentions and He speaks about that as well. The Word, as a sword divides, but we are not to be in division. One could do a whole study on Sheol/Hades mistranslations from Greek/Hebrew to English, but it's been done. The same mistake in translating to English is made with Paradise or the Garden of Eden.

In Genesis, when Adam and Eve were in relationship with God, it is presented as "Paradise", though Scripture does not specifically say the word "paradise. We often use the word to descibe something amazingly wonderful and peaceful. The emphasis in Genesis and throughout all of Scripture is based on belief in Who He is and being in relationship with Him. The thief entered into relationship when he identified Jesus through his belief. As The Church, we enter into relationship in the same manner. Belief! That's it! Is Paradise a literal place? Is Hell/Sheol a literal place? Or is it merely your position as a believer (Paradise) or unbeliever (Hell) in the Lord Jesus Christ? Look at the torment of the rich man when Lazurus (Luke 16:19-31) was . While the word "hell" is used, it is better defined as "a great gulf fixed" in vs. 26. Lazurus was comforted and the rich man tormented and it was too late to become a believer. Rest assured, he did become a believer as every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. Most assuredly, the rich man realized Truth and wanted him to go to his family so they would avoid the "place of torment".

Again, being separated from God in relationship. Like when Adam was cast out of Eden. In any event, being in Hell/Sheol or being in Paradise of God, are two very real descriptions given by God to relate to us the rewards of believing or the consequences of not believing. Both are real conditions of the human race. There is no middle ground. Once the door is shut, or the gulf fixed, it is too late to decide, but most assuredly everyone will believe Jesus is Lord and either be eternally with Him in the Paradise of God or Eternally separated, judged because of their unbelief and choice not to be born again (second death) and cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14-15). It's a choice and sometimes we make it too difficult for someone to believe because even Christians can't agree, but this I say, BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. God will reveal through the Spirit, the Truth of His Word. The Sword will divide flesh from Spirit and to him that overcomes through faith, will He reward. WE MUST be about the Father's business and sharing the simple Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. James, I didn't intend for my comments to put you in a place of defense. I don't care to make MY points, for I don't know all of the mysteries of God. I don't want the world to know MY interpretation, but I want them to know Him and allow the Spirit of God to move and work upon the deep of their heart. I trust the Spirit of God to reveal to you Truth, as you seek Him. Blessings to you!

Anonymous said...

Grammy. I believe my bible is the Word of God, and therefore without error. When it states Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth I believe it. When it says he paid the penalty of sin I believe that too. The doctrine of paradise is the teaching that Jesus went into a compartment of "hades" called paradise to free all the Old Testament believers. This is false doctrine as salvation has always been by grace through faith . I've posted many scriptures to validate this on a few other threads. When Old Testament believers died they went to heaven, not a place in hades called "paradise" to later be saved. I've never claimed to know everything, but what I do know I'm fully persuaded in my mind that it's true as I've studied this issue quite a bit. I know all about every false teaching of dispensationism. Paul said all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. In Genesis Abraham built an alter and called on the name of the Lord, so he did not go to a special part of hell waiting to be saved, rather he went to the true paradise which is with our Heavenly Father. If Abraham didn't go to heaven when he died then the scriptures are not telling the truth. I know otherwise.......james

Anonymous said...

Thank-you Grammy G. for your post. It was very humbling and you speak truth in what you stated. May God, our Father, continue to watch over you and bless you.

The fruits of Spirit are evident in your writing.

Grammy G said...

James, the Enemy is the Author of confusion and Divider of the Brethren. I trust God will reveal all Truth to His saints in His time. Blessings to you sir.

Grammy G said...

Bless you Anon! God is faithful and true and I trust fully in Him and lean not unto my own understanding for it is fleshly, vulnerable, and sinful! Isn't this a most sobering time in which to be alive? Press in! Watch! Pray! The Spirit of God is moving mightily, sifting and sorting. Blessings to you Anon!

Anonymous said...

Grammy. God has revealed his truth and it's called the holy scriptures. I'm not waiting for truth when it's been here for everyone to read for millennia. You claim "hades" has been "mistranslated", this means you think the scriptures are in error. So how did you learn of salvation if it wasn't for these scriptures you claim are in error? It is the scriptures that sanctify us. How can they do so if they are in error? Since Jesus Christ is the living Word, does that mean he's in error too? Faith is reading the scriptures and believing what you read, not some warm fuzzy feeling or goosebumps. You always say "I hope God shows you the truth", but the only way God speaks to anyone is through his Word, and if this "truth" you speak of cannot be shown through scripture then it simply doesn't exist. It's true that people refuse to adhere to sound doctrine, and these doctrines are found in the scriptures. If you feel I'm in error, then please show me through scripture where I'm wrong. Again, I never claimed to know everything and I would definitely be willing to change my stance on issues if thorough scripture is provided......James

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth, thy Word is truth

Grammy G said...

James, I refuse to argue with you! I shall defend the Gospel and the Lord, not myself. I don't have to for He is my Defender. Anything more that I may say, you will just tear apart and misinterpret. Goodbye!