Thursday, June 22, 2017

Spiritual Changes

Since leaving fundamentalism, I will be honest with my readers I am undergoing some changes. I am not sure where it is going to take me.  It is kind of a confusing place, crawling out of spiritual abuse,  being such an out-liner in the Christian world.

The alt-right is a lie, and fundamentalism bothered me more and more. I left the church system two years ago for good, and well, the regular "Christian" world is like a far off country.  I can't conform. It didn't help I consulted one of my old IFB pastors, I felt so downtrodden, and he told me, which may make some laugh here, that I dealt way too much with corruptions and perversions within Christianity and it has made me jaded. He has only seen my Facebook page which is far more mild then this blog.That kind of frightened me. Imagine if I had told him everything I thought. I never told him about this blog in all these years.

I also never have told him, "Don't you think it would have been easier to be like normal people not to think about things so much?" I could have been happy in a church all these years untroubled by so much. I suppose not all people have the capacity to understand. I wish I had not gone to him to talk about these things, I only know a few Christians in real life and now regret it. I have gotten the feeling I offended him even years ago and have shocked him with what would be considered 5 percent of what this blog is about and on the mild end only.

Maybe I have gotten too far out there, and out of the church system, I am confusing people. Sometimes we get to places where we have to examine ourselves and our beliefs even more in depth. I am in one of those times.I suppose this is a natural progression.Some people when I told them I now am an "ex-fundamentalist" asked me if I was now going to become an atheist. How? I have already been an atheist, it is a dead end to nowhere. Creation alone speaks of a Creator. So this is not like the time when one is a kid, and hates Mom and Dad's church and thinks "Forget this, I'll be an atheist." I am still a Christian, but I am a very troubled one.

 Most mainstream church people would flip out knowing about this blog. I take enough heat in day to day life. One troubling moment is when the old pastor seemed to hint I may not have really been saved. It was sincere as far as I know. I was so on fire and passionate for years and years. I loved/love God and felt His Love, there was nothing fake about it. It scares me that mild protests and a few "spiritual sounding board" posts, have gotten this reaction. Would they have gotten the matches and the stake out for this blog?

I don't want to make anyone stumble but there's a lot I have been questioning lately. I had to face facts even my view of God was off kilter on a personal level where I saw God more as Prosecutor ready to strike me down, with Jesus being my "Rescuer". I covered some of this in the "Where is the Love article?" Severe abuse impacted my view of God.  This may have been what made some of the religious fundamentalism attractive to me. I can't go on with such a troubled and broken view of God. It's got to be fixed. It has to be honest.

Raised by people where I was condemned from day one, I continued this search for answers and got stuck on the spiritual improvement hamster wheel.  Breaking away from my abusive and connected family has changed me too. I am not accepting abuse in my life, that said, the bondages of whatever religious mind control, shaming and coercion got broken. The spiritual abuser, whatever she was didn't have a chance as I was changing. This doesn't mean all struggles are over.  This world almost crushed me. My extreme outcast nature actually made this blog possible and it's risks. Normal people conform for social rewards, I was already cast out of the city gates long ago, so I got out a spyglass and looked into the religious industrial complex and reported here what I saw from the "outside".

The later spiritual abuse, brought in some major poison. Years around fundamentalists who focused on appearances and endless rules for "proper" living also took their toll. Life itself also impacted things. I had major spiritual oppression as a child playing into these outcomes, I was not allowed to have my own feelings, thoughts, validation or beliefs.

Often in false religion there is a lot of guilt-trips, misery, indoctrination and being shamed for "not being enough" or "holy enough". I definitely underwent that with the spiritual abuser I broke away from but there was always a degree of that in the churches I dealt with. Some of it was subtle and I was in denial. I didn't want to face how I was truly viewed. This went beyond me being seen as "rebel" or "iconoclast" but gave me reality checks how the disabled are truly viewed in American society and it's far less pleasant in evangelical and fundamentalist circles. I realize even years ago I never had acceptance or other things I dreamed about in a church body or a church family.  These disappointments built up. I have struggled with dreams for this world in living the Christian life being broken. One day I cried and said "Some "Christian" ideals did not match reality". I felt guilty when I said it, but it was part of my struggle.

I have faced facts that even years ago I felt intellectually oppressed and told not to talk about things. There was no honesty and integrity in that. I was just told to obey and not to worry about things or question anything. To be frank, the Protestant and fundamentalist world isn't that much different from the Catholic world.  Those who charge it with lacking love in some circles are correct. Going into a liberal church is no solution, where I will be told what to think there too and to fit a mold. My beliefs here remain the same, so that is no fit at all. I know they are just as manipulated as any right wingers. I am out of the fundamentalist world. Some may say I did this to myself and I deserve it. So be it.

Even those who preach salvation by grace can bring you legalism. It happens all the time. Get saved and then life becomes nothing but a measurement pit. "You are not doing enough.","You are not holy enough", "You are not separated from the world enough" so forth and so on. Sanctification becomes a contest. I felt more weary around other "Christians" then I did nonbelievers. What explained this?

 Some think formulas will bring perfect lives and holiness. People get burned out. I know I got burned out. It worried me that keeping company with fundamentalist Christians out in the real world just saddened me. I never felt right. I never felt I was "enough". They seemed rigid too, like they were afraid of bending lest they would crack.  Non-believers see this stuff and want to run. It made me feel scared and I think I figured out while I felt safer away from many so called "Christian" crowds.

I've discussed the authoritarianism, many times on this blog. In real life I am a creative thinker, I was an art teacher before I was disabled and still paint. I sold three paintings in the last three months for pin money and groceries. I always felt pulled in the fundamentalist Christian world like something was wrong to be like that. I chose them to escape the vestiges of Catholicism and for their claims to believe in scripture but I was left empty-handed there too. I have struggled with the feeling of being a "failed" Christian and like I do not belong anywhere. Some independent thinking friends have told me, "you are one of those rare Christians who have gone your own way". One can feel shame though given all the talk of fellowship being so important in scriptures. Others have told me my breaking away from the churches has been done in pride. They tell me I am a know it all and refuse to obey "authority". Obviously the old IFB pastor from 10 years ago sees me as a corrupted influence, he doesn't like the mild things I have talked about. There I feel repressed, and he was the more open-minded one among the rest.

I am in the maze asking God, "What do I do now?" There's been some wrestling too. When I started this blog I still believe God showed me a lot of things, not as a special prophet or anything like that, but maybe that was the price of taking this journey on this blog. Often I worried about the spiritual outcomes of where I was going. I don't want to make anyone else stumble, so posting this is very difficult for me. I can't deny the things I found out or deny God, Jesus Christ or His Word, but I am in a very strange place lately.  Maybe seeing through the glass darkly somewhat while still alive, I am not sure how to describe it. It's like walking on a tight rope. You fear falling away but you want the truth.

Perhaps if anyone else is interested in sharing if they went through anything like this, they can share in comments. 


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Debra said...

I think our beginning and ending point needs to be with God. If we run circles in our mind, we can end up in a place God never intends for us. All these feelings of being detached, alone, without fellowship, feeling like the odd man out, never fitting in is really a blessing. Did God really intend for His bride to fit in a building with fake pastors who lead His sheep astray? So this is a blessing that you do not fit in, praise God you are not under their spell. God's word says that if we measure ourselves with each other it is wrong.
2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
God does not look at the outward appearance, He only looks at the heart.I Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
So you are blessed my dear sister because the last thing on your mind is to judge someone by their appearance. Our identity does not rest in where we fit in, who we know, who likes us or what they think of us. We are free from all that. It is interesting to note those who act righteous are the ones who want to discard any truth a person may bring. They will defend their pastor even though he is a horn hand aficionado. They know something is wrong but just can't put their finger on it, rather they continue under witchcraft rule. BB, God has brought you into a place of safety. It takes time to heal from all the false messages doled out like rotten fruit. After awhile your stomach begins to feel nauseous, maybe this is what you are feeling. God leads us out of falsehood and deception into truth and understanding.

Nadine said...

Thank you for pouring out your belief into this post. I cannot necessarily comment on your situation as I haven't really been through a similar situation but have found myself seeking out more information and questioning "the way we do things".
I attend church regularly. Quite regularly now that I am the new secretary after our last one left after 20 years of service. It is a paid position, and although it pays less than my last job and has less hours, it offers excellent flexibility and the chance to make a change.
I personally believe that we need to be the ones to create change. I could easily walk away from my church and look for greener pastures but what good would it do? From research I have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be for the best. Before I got the job, I had already resolved to faithfully attend my church and strive to help make improvements where I was able. Now that I am part of a greater role, I find myself spearheading ideas and being the person who listens to other peoples questions and ideas.
My pastor is meaning retirement age and our church is mainly retirees with a large gap and then enough young families for a thriving "kingdom kids" (I don't agree with the name) program. We are lacking the youth and single adult demographic. My pastor doesn't like to rock the boat and doesn't necessarily question tradition or "if something comes up and the main thing on google is about it", it is ok. The tradition is in regards to communion. I questioned why we use leavened bread when we can easily access unleavened bread these days and based it on the sin nature of the yeast and was told we use what we have and basically that it wasn't a point of discussing it further. In regards to Google, it was regarding calling our children kids. Kids is the term for goats and a member of our congregation voiced concern over calling our children essentially goats when we are to separate the sheep from the goats. I brought forth her concern (because it really would do no harm calling it Children's Church) and was told it is okay because there are graphics on google about it. I really wanted to say something but kept my mouth shut that time. (cont)

Nadine said...

I believe that God has called me into the position that I am serving him in to help revitalize my church. We have been poor communicators for several years and the relationships between people who attend church have been put on the back burner because we are all too busy nowadays. I believe that the end times are coming and we need to be prepared. I tale my role seriously to help combat the coming (or is it already here?) apostasy in my church.
It is hard to be creating change, yet unable to change things I would like to maybe see change with. I have to believe that the change that I am able to create will make a difference in spite of what I am not able to do. There doesn't seem to be much at first sight as to what one person, in charge of making a weekly bulletin can do, but I am already seeing an improvement in cross-generational communication among members and helping to recognize the senior members of our church that sometimes feel forgotten by praying for one of them weekly in the prayer section of our bulletin.
I have also encouraged the use of our church mailboxes by no longer handing out bulletins at the door, but getting the members to retrieve their bulletin from their mailbox. Now members and myself are easily able to see when someone has missed several Sundays and can encourage them to continue keeping their faith strong, no matter their ordeal that they are struggling with.

Nadine said...

Part 3
One reason I look to create this change is because of the impact of one former member of our church. She was the deciding factor for a dear friend of mine when she decided to join our church. This older lady, now deceased, would actually speak about God and talk about the sermon and that is why my friend joined as she appreciated her frankness and could see she had a great walk with God. Towards the end of her life, over the last 3 years, this lady pretty much stopped attending our church although the congregation couldn't admit it when it came time for her funeral at her new church. They couldn't be bothered to actually have a conversation with her while she was alive but made great strides to be involved as a church for her funeral. It was quite sad when I realized that I missed out on a great opportunity to learn from such a wise lady who actually cared about her faith and went deep into it rather than just superficially attending church on Sunday. My church has a back row mentality and although I used to sit closer to the front, I now sit in the 4th row because my husband regularly attends and doesn't want to sit closer. My view to the front in blocked by a total of three people in the third row. The second row is always empty since the lady I previously mentioned left/ passed away. The front row is never sat in except for funerals. I miss seeing her sit in the second row. She wasn't afraid to lift up her hands, sing and actually worship our Lord. She didn't care what people thought, she only cared about the things that really did matter.
I strive to be more like her. I strive to encourage whomever I am able to in their walk with Christ. I strive to encourage others to be more encouraging. I pray that I may be able to show God's love for us and that he is able to use me in my church to do his will.
As far as my pastor goes, I now have lots of opportunities for discussions or potentially creating opportunities for him to ponder topics that have been on my mind- such as the great apostasy, of which I dropped into our conversation about purchasing supplies for an upcoming BBQ. Only time will tell if God is able to use me to help my pastor to further his walk with the Lord.
I appreciate your blog of which it is a ministry in itself to all of us (like me) who "stumble" (or were led to it) across it. Keep on posting as you are making a difference and you are encouraging others like me to realize that change needs to happen in our churches.... comment was too long for one post, sorry for being so wordy.

Anonymous said...

OK, I will tell a bit of my own experiences as a christian. I was raised a Catholic and left the R.C. Church at the age of about 20, and went to a so called full gospel (pentacostal) church. These church had a lot of emphasis on speaking in tongues and casting out demons. Many got frustrated. I left this church after about 4 years. Later I joined another pentacostal / charismatic church, the Rafael community, which is officially part of the Foursquare movement in the USA. About 5 years ago I discovered, after much bible study for myself, that speaking in tongues, as is practised today, is kind of superstition. Two years ago I left the church. Reason: in a sermon the preacher taught that speaking in tongues should give you wisdom and insights. I strongly objected to that in a letter, which was not given the attention it deserved, so to speak. It seems, people persist in believing a lie rather than accepting some correction.
After I left that church, I joined a baptist church. They used the KJV and were clearly non-calvinist. However, in the constitution it was noted they believed in the pre-trib-rapture. Other thoughts like post-trib-rapture would be false teachings. I asked for an explanation about that, the only answer I got was, "well, it in the constitition, I don't have to give you an answer. Period!"
So, as you might guess, I left that church as well.
I am churchless now for about a year and some months. I don't regret the situation as it is now for me.
I asked myself, why is it so hard to find a proper church. I think the main reason is this: Luther might have started the reformation and did some good things. However, he never really broke completely with the R.C. System. There is still a strong distance between the 'leadership' (they are always right) and the 'ordinary people' (they are never right), in almost every church. Consider the title 'pastor'. Is it biblical?
I now know: Babylon is not only the R.C. Church, it is mainstream churches as well!
And we, as born again christians, have to come out (Rev. 18:4).
So, having our difficulties and doubts is quite normal. Remember Elijah, as he once was being fed by crows. Elijah, a man like us!

God bless


Bible Believer said...

Debra I agree the beginning and ending point has to be God, it's true we can get too tied up into knots and I have struggled with this. I think you are right about the never fitting in thing, how many would even discover any truth in the first place seeking conformity first. God never wanted us in control matrix buildings where they teach them a certain lifestyle and to vote for the most wicked men. Thanks for the verses about not measuring ourselves with each other. That one definitely has meaning to me.

"they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."

wow, kind of cuts through that church conformity thing doesn't it. How many look to each other as to "what to do", my pastor says, my family says, etc.

Yes my last thing on my mind is to judge by appearance, I never liked that aspect of evangelical "culture", I agree our identity does not rest in fitting in. I could not fit in if I wanted to. The righteous appearing ones are hurting many, I have seen their outcomes on people not just my own personal pain but other people and those of low status in society or who face troubles. If anything many people run away from "religious" people because of endless abuse. On the Facebook I was calling out some things, more "mild" and I have no regrets in doing so. Sure I have met the ones in the churches who know something is wrong and not right, some even have said to me, we have to talk our children somewhere, we know the church is not perfect or the pastor but they still believe in the system. The hand horn ones and mixing esoteric, new age, and luciferian concepts into their teachings, they still admantly defend under the spell of gaslighting, "you see things that are not there."

Bible Believer said...

Nadine I am glad you are questioning why certain things are done a certain way. I hope you are in a church, these may be rare where questioning and opinions are allowed, especially since you hold employment there. Just know some times this can bring difficulties. Yes many churches are lacking youth and single adults, I think a lot of the pastors don't want to rock the boat, and yes go with what they are "comfortable" with, for a sincere one, the path of least resistance can be attractive. It is odd they brought up that about communion. I will be honest I question the ritual of communion in churches and believe Jesus meant a real meal and fellowship, not a chiclet and a teeny tiny glass of grape juice. Unleavened bread would be more biblical in the Jewish sense but do not think it matters either way, I wrote a post a long time ago about communion, I'll try and dig it up for you.

With kids, I am not so legalistic on it, the origins of the word are bothersome but then we are stuck with Saturday. God will know when you mean a word for communication and are parted from it's pagan roots.

I hope you can make good changes but be careful. In churches even my mild opinions, got me censure and ostracization. Coming out against Trump has fractured even old church relationships present on Facebook. I am seen as the "bad rebel" or something along that. Maybe you are in a church where there may be more independent thinking. Also be mindful the being caught up in busyness, well that's really being in with the modern world. I am glad you were able to help some communication and offered comfort and prayers to the sick and other issues.
Do you know why your deceased friend left? Was it illness or disagreements with the church? No I don't like the idea of people suddenly "caring" after her demise, why didn't they talk to her before?Did the church ever visit her in her illness? She sounds like she was a good friend to you. It is a good sign she went deep. That is one thing I noticed in the churches I was in, no one wanted to go deep or explore anything, it happened rarely but I got the feeling fast, it was something pastors frowned on. Your friend sounds like she was a great lady. I hope your pastor is more open and sincere, and you won't experience the shut-downs I have. I will be honest, I don't accept the role of pastor in churches anymore, I'm with Joop but in your case God may have you where He wants you for now. Thanks for your encouraging words and comments on the blog.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Joop for sharing your experiences, I understand you leaving all those churches, I have visited Pente churches a few times, but saw enough to know what they are like and am glad you got out. I have written against speaking in tongues here some years back. LOL I forget how old this blog is, I need to redo the indexing too, and got behind on it. It is scary a pastor preached tongues are to give you reason when many are babbling made up words to fit in, and to show a "gift of the "spirit"
All my IFBs taught pretrib mostly, well one pastor dabbled with midtrib, but they were all Christian Zionist and taught things I have written against here. Christmas was one thing I grinned and bore it, but that had to come to an end. I knew I was sunk trying to talk to one IFB pastor about the millennial kingdom and Christmas, hey I tried my best, but have encountered what you did. There was no open communication. I am glad you are comfortable in your churchless situation, I have been totally out for two years, I had been out for some years and then went to a IFB for about a year which I left.

Bible Believer said...

I agree about Luther, the Reformation kept plenty of vestiges of Catholicism. Catholicism to be frank is in the IFB, well one has the masonic order infiltrations all over the place. My answer to the question raised in this article long ago is YES

I know some nice Lutherans in town, they are always telling me I'd make a good Lutheran but to me that would be the same as being back under the Pope. They knew I was a baptist but know I no longer go to church. The ones are Facebook friends have seen some "out of the church system" comments.LOL

Jesus Himself preached against the clergy system. The error of the Nicolatians, how close is the term Pastor to papa? {father} Call no man father, it makes me wonder. Sure the leadership are always right and the ordinary people are always wrong, don't ask any questions just take what they tell you. Some people see me as some kind of weird hippie Christian IRL, they think it's cool I dumped the churches. LOL Yeah the churchless thing can get weird. It makes it hard to define things for people, because the system is so encroaching.

I agree we had to come out. There's pressures on us. The people asking me if I was going to now be an atheist freaked me out, I thought "OH no how far have I gone?" I didn't want to renounce God. I have had doubts too, that I know have cropped up from all of this, thanks for being understanding of these things. Debra is right it has to be God and us, we can't let others define God too. I am busy trying to find the love, in my relationship with God, rather then just seeing God as the ready to punish Prosecutor. I don't like the "god" [antichrist]worshipped in so many churches, the bowing people, the harsh authoritarian taskmaster that is for the police state and oppression. The mindless obedience.

I did talk to some unbelievers online and they were fed up with the church system too, sometimes when I talk to people like that they find what I have to say interesting on rare occasion.Sure doubts and difficulties may be a part of this gambit. It's like the church system is this giant "matrix" system, and when you leave it, people can't even begin to understand you. The context is hard.

Yes the mainstream churches are in Babylon too, the IFB as well. Hey they support the Pope's Crusades as I said in that article.

I am not sure what God wants from me now but will wait on Him. I also need to clean my mind of decades of spiritual abuse and abusers using "God" to punish me and defining God in false ways. This goes way way back. When I left the Catholic church when young, I became an "evil" person to my wicked family, it has meant real life costs, I suppose there are some now to being out of Babylon as well. I could never be a blind and controlled follower. I know from this blog, there are others like us out there. There are sincere people in the churches they know something is wrong, I do hope more are shown too. Thanks for your encouraging words as well. God bless.

Debra said...

I agree BB, pastor is a gift not a title. How many use the gifts of God's Holy Spirit and put a title upon a title with it. Such as Apostle Joe, Executive Director of Family ministries, Evangelist Sally, President of world missions, Senior Executive Pastor over the 4,500 church congregation...growing and counting. This is all for show for the church to run like a well oiled money making machine. People love it so, don't they. Church people love to name drop in title mode as they can be associated with the best of the best. I Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
I was asking the Lord where the real pastors (shepherds) are? I think of David away from his valiant appearing brothers. David was tending the sheep, keeping them away from danger. Now we have self appointed luciferian, masonic, among others who are out to feed the flock to the lion and wolves.

Homeward Bound (HB) said...

I'm sometimes confused, too, since leaving the "church" system. My husband who will listen and read research on the wolves who have infiltrated church leadership still wishes to attend but not without me, and this is a confusing position to be in. Yet, if I go, it agonizes me to no end on either the Israeli flag with it's Satanic star upfront on the stage (IFB), or the "Christian" church which does communion every Sunday because "it makes them feel good" and with the pastor who drones on with his opinions for 45 minutes, or the Calvary Chapel that praises Billy and Franklin Graham and continuously shows Greg Lauries's Harvest videos of deception with fundraising for Franklin's Samaritan's Purse and making those Christmas shoeboxes in which you're not allowed to put any Scripture lest you offend someone. We even tried a Presbyterian church whose congregation has dwindled to just a handful of retirees. I could not support the Presbyterian organization, but there was much to be said about how this group which was without a pastor (couldn't support one) would gather on Sunday and just read Scripture, sing hymns and have a little meal afterwards. I do believe this style of worship is what was intended for the Church, not the one-man show and ruler of the roost.

The lack of fellowship is really hard and yes, the Bible stresses fellowship, but fellowship can only be had with like-minded people. BB, you are filling the fellowship void here, so I hope you do not get too discouraged in your walk with the Lord in this world and "church" of massive deception. I've learned a lot from you and thank you for providing a medium where like-minded people can gather together.

We've got to keep clinging to the Rock of our Salvation - Jesus Christ - finding our comfort and encouragement in Him and enduring until He brings us home.

Anonymous said...

Philippians 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Anonymous said...

Hi BB -
This was such a timely post for me. I'm in such a strange place now spiritually, been so discouraged for several months. I comment on your blog fairly often, but for anonymity purposes I'm going to post as anonymous, just in case.

I'm in an IFB now. I had initially been attracted there after I got saved, because it seemed the most Scriptural. The past several months I've had mounting concerns about many different things, and my spouse and I have been feeling very beat down and worn out. We've been faced with some pretty rank hypocrisy, and once that became apparent, it has just gotten harder and harder. I know people are sinners, I don't expect perfection, but there has just been some really strange stuff going on, can't help but wonder if there are some NPD's in the picture too. I was raised by NPD's, so honestly the fact that it took me awhile to figure it out surprises me a bit but once that "flavor" of behavior cropped up, alot of things started to make sense. I still can't quite nail that down, but you know how that is. I have even started to doubt my own experiences with people because things change on a dime, and then I wonder if I'm overreacting, but then a little bit later it goes right back.

I've really felt "shut down" by God lately, not used like I was, and discouraged more often than not. I've been so frustrated by the "man made conviction" I have felt I've been rebelling, but then I worry, I don't want to rebel against God in an effort to rebel against man. That probably sounds terrible. I found your comment about the pastor asking if you were really saved odd, I really think they believe anyone who doesn't think just like they do are either totally backslid or were never saved...I've heard it. I realize that if I ever leave, I will be the one who was either never saved, or I'm out of God's will, or something that will be my fault.

I found the "Stuff Fundies Like" website through your blog, it is so strange...some of it made me sad because I felt like their spiritual abuse has led them to a place where they reject EVERYTHING, even the truth, but then there was other stuff that was utterly spot on. I came out of the RCC at one point, and I agree that there is that element of works and tradition in it too. Yet there's outward works, for all to see, but you start to find out what happens privately doesn't really match up, and I have no time for that. Just be who you are. Especially when you are being held up to that level as a measure that you are supposed to achieve. It's a lie. I've spent so much time worrying about this or that, "not measuring up", to what? I don't doubt that there are a few who are genuine, I know a few who I believe are, I have tried to be and I am very imperfect, but I try to be genuine, but it seems like they are few and far between.

I've really been praying for God to show me what he wants and to show me truth. I've asked for that since I've been saved, and He led me here a couple years back, and other places as well. Just going to pray about this, try to drown out other influences for awhile and get in my Bible.

I have a very good friend who I can talk to about things, but this blog has become a major piece of my fellowship. I agree with Homeward Bound about finding fellowship with like minded people through this blog, I wonder sometimes just why that is so hard IRL.

Anyhow, know how much those of us who read your blog appreciate you. I have learned an insane amount (literally lol) from you. Maybe there is some truth to the being jaded piece, I try to be balanced but sometimes it is hard and I have to refocus. Maybe that is what is going on now. Anyhow, praying for you sister...take care.

Anonymous said...

I sit down with my Bible, and I keep it at that. I don't need the "church community".

The whole point of the authoritarian structure in the "church community" is to promote the power and riches of the leadership. Money goes to bigger and bigger buildings so that the widows and orphans have to hope that the secular government will help them, because the church can't help them. The church is busy paying multi million dollar mortgages.

Debra said...

When smiles are made to impress, vile seeds never flourish in deeds to be seen by men. It is only God’s pure love that endures to the end.
What does it matter if the world affirms and applauds but cannot confess Jesus as Lord while trusting in the glory of the flesh.
If life tells a story in which strife is your quest, your soul does not rest in the sovereignty of God, hunger and thirst drives your barren soul to remain cold, desolate and dry. What do you gain if the world spins at your feet but meet your maker in selfishness and greed. Who really wins?
Cursed is the fate of those whose armor is their strength and have relied upon Babylon’s pride and her lies. A pawn in the hands of the enemy bidding evil in disguise, enmity has risen and it will not stand. Tremble in fear for God is in command. The heavens will be shaken; the seas will be no more, for the New Jerusalem will come down as a bride, a Holy City adorned in crowns of glory for our King. In garments of salvation we shall sing all honor, worship and praise, we’ve been transformed, eternal victory escapes hell’s grip. Precious is His blood, it floods our hearts with overwhelming joy; God’s grace leaves us breathless in wonder, death has no sting.

Isaiah 61:10, Isaiah 52:1, Revelation 3:12. Hebrews 12:22,

Solomon Rodriguez said...

Read the epistles of John, read John chapter 3, Romans 8:28 through the end of the chapter, these passages show God and His only Begotten Son's love for us. We are adopted into God's family making us His children and Jehoshua our elder brother,heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ. If us being evil can give good gifts to our children, how much more our Heavenly Father. This is why it's important to have a biblical understanding of the Godhead which is rooted in the Father-Son relationship of Jehovah Jah Elohim and Jehovah Jehoshua Messiah. when you understand the Father-Son relationship between God and Christ then their love for us as believers and also for all mankind is manifested (clearly shown) in a most beautiful precious way. God is not an oger who is ready to smite us at the drop of a hat.

Anonymous said...

I've been reading your blog for several months, BB...find much in common. Not many topics I wasn't aware of but certainly have learned more from what you have posted. As with several others, fully relate to being out of the church system - last being IFB - two yrs. back, like you. My husband & I are very much isolated - no family, etc. The disappointments/rejections/betrayals have all driven me closer to our Mighty God & father! My propensity to think/feel deeply has always separated me from others, in a sense... but loneliness has been increased since salvation (30 yrs. old/60's now.) As with our sanctification, it is an intentional action for me to stop thoughts that will spiral down-ward by focusing on God & His promises. Thankful that our Lord Jesus & the Holy Spirit intercede for promises to think on and PRAISE GOD with my will. I want to add verses but may run out of space here. We can go before His throne of grace...He understands! Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Debra said...

We have to remember we have on royal robes when the enemy lies and tells us we are dressed in rags.

Anonymous said...

Adding a bit to my last posting, concluding with Nahum 1:7, I will resume with this one: John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. These words have always come to me when I am searching myself - we are to examine ourselves - 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? I went through several bad years with a thought I could not shake which made PRAISING God (heartfelt gratitude) difficult for me (a seed planted by something a "pastor" on the radio said.) It would be helpful to hear that but best shared 'voice to voice' vs. printed words. Anyway, the point is that it brought me to the simplicity of recognizing that God is altogether GOOD or He is not GOD: PS. 19:7-9; PS. 119; James Ch. 1, esp. v. 17 - no shadow of turning in Him! Lots of that in my early life w/parents & all people, really - including me. That is the nature of sinful mankind but NOT GOD. I want to encourage you, dear BB because I care...I was so burdened when I read this latest post & some previous to it that I finally wrote. I hate Facebook/social media & resisted even doing this but my husband said "encourage her!" Spend lots of time in the word, pour out your heart to our Father:PS. 62:8 ¶Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. & PS.142.1 So I will close with these words that are in my heart & on my tongue even on the darkest of days:
Psalms 57:5 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth.

William Sculley said...

I've said it time and again. You ever find yourself in the Gainesville, FL, or Jacksonville, FL areas, drop me a line. I experienced a lot of that same judgment in the IFB church I was raised in, and for nearly a decade, I had always thought that it was something that was wrong with me personally, instead of something wrong with the Congregationalist system, the hateful political stances, and petty internal squabbles that come when, for all intents and purposes, you simply replace the Pope with whoever is the senior pastor in your congregation. I'm going to advise anyone who is in the Jacksonville area, for example, to avoid West Jacksonville Baptist Church like the plague. Between painting my brother as a horrible person because he made a juvenile mistake which resulted in the conception and birth of my nephew, who I dare anyone to call a mistake like they did at WJBC; and the mistreatment of my mother, blaming her when my dad attempted, but failed, to kill himself. I thank God that my dad is still around, and when they threw my mom under the bus because she had been visiting a family friend, accusing her of having an affair, I was forced to face up to something that I had been ignoring: They have been so focused on maintaining a set of doctrines they think is correct that they forgot I Corinthians 13's message.

Honestly, this is something that is real easy to fall into when you believe that the doctrinal truth must be preserved, and forget that without love, all the correct doctrine in the world will never save you.

This is something that, while it is an issue that we Orthodox run into, as well, especially with converts like me. When I first became a catechumen in 2012, I went militant. Actually, that was something that anyone who cares to find my comments on the pages talking about the EOC can see, I said things I should not have said because I allowed my less tactful self run the show.

I know you have your issues with us doctrinally, but if you do come, at least in the parishes near me in the south, we'll hold the door open. Unlike with IFB churches, the synergistic path of salvation in Orthodoxy is all about being a family. We actually formally declared practices of shunning to be heresy. Any person may come and join with us in the Liturgy and afterwards the tables are always open at Coffee Hour. You don't get to choose who is in your family. But since we are family, since we are a crew, the focus of the leaders has been to welcome anyone with open arms, because we want you in the family.

But with the doctrine of Eternal Security, IFB churches become museums for the saints, where anything short of perfect is put in a back room or kicked out. I'm no longer welcome at West Jax. I will never step foot in the IFB church here in Starke because of the racist way the pastor and his wife acted toward my cousin when my aunt and uncle adopted him.

William Sculley said...

This is how you will know a true Christian. It isn't following the rules. It isn't knowing all the right doctrines. You will know them because they love their neighbor. You will know them because they are out in the community trying to fight things like poverty and domestic abuse.

Don't get me wrong. We have our share of bad apples. There are even whole parishes that I would say should be excommunicated because instead of spreading the Faith, they are too busy trying to preserve their ethnic culture. Greek churches are not supposed to prevent people who aren't Greek from coming, but there are some that do. The same goes for Russian Orthodox parishes.

I cannot guarantee that whatever parish is near you will really "be the bee" as the popular Orthodox YouTube show says, but I can promise that if you're in my home parish, I will do my best to make it feel like a home.

That invitation is open to anyone who, like me, battles with loneliness. Because of my illness and finances, I haven't been able to go to a church service in several months. I have no real friends in the area, so I battle with loneliness in many ways. And since I am politically and religiously opposed to my family's stance (they are hyper-conservative Baptists), I don't get to discuss the faith with them like I do here. At least I know that here, people aren't going to pretend that they're perfect.

Abigail said...

Oh, BB, you are such an honest, humble soul and a REAL person. I have loved that about you since the first day I read your blog years ago. It isn't easy being a real person in a fake world. And no world is more fake than the "Christian" world.

I don't comment much anymore, but I do read every post you put up, and most of the comments. I have had a rough year myself. My first-born son announced that he is an agnostic earlier this year, and it hurts. He has never been happier. Meanwhile, his siblings struggle to cling to their faith in the face of almost constant disappointment and isolation.

Speaking to my daughter today, I reminded her of the conversation between Peter and Christ. Christ's followers were dropping like flies as they began to realize that believing on Christ was going to make their lives harder, not immediately bring about the kingdom of God on earth as they had assumed. Peter realizes this, too, and Jesus asks him if he will leave also. And Peter just says, where will we go? We know You are the Truth and hold the key to eternal life in Your hands!! That's where I am. That's where you are, too. We are realizing that life is lonely and hard and that it would be much easier to be social and "happy" without the knowledge we have in Christ. But yet, we know we can't live life without Him, and don't want to. It defies logic. It is a kind of desperate, lifesaving faith.

I, too, was raised in a family of narcissists. I, too, have been shunned and rejected by them. But do not listen to Satan's lie that God does not love you or care about you. God is not a narcissist--quite the opposite , in fact. He sent His Son to humble Himself and die to save us from this place!

Life is hard. God didn't want it to be, but sinful man made it so. Worldly people believe Satan's lie that life can be good if we fill it with enough fun people and frenetic activity. All this is vain. Death, poverty, war, disease, betrayals--happiness is transient in this world. Satan lies and says that we will be happier if we question God's goodness and just eat the fruit off the tree! Have fun now! But God isn't interested in making us happy now at this moment. He knows that the only way out of this messy world we have created for ourselves is to cling to Him. Satan throws all these fake life rafts out there to drowning humanity and people happily float around on them, margaritas in hand, smiling and shaking their heads at us as we desperately cling to Christ. But it is a cruel hoax. Their rafts will sink, and we will be so glad that we hung onto Christ with our last ounce of faith and hope.

When my son told me of his agnosticism, he apologized for his "dangerous ideas." I told him as I tell you now. There are no ideas that are dangerous to the Truth. The Truth stands. It can handle our thoughts and doubts and not be toppled. The only danger to Truth is pride. God loves you, BB. He loves me, He loves my doubting son. Life is hard, and He told us it would be. He told us it would be before we ate from the tree, and He told us it would continue to be hard until Jesus has rescued the last of His sheep and can take us all to greener pastures. Difficulty in life is not evidence of anything other than mankind's poor choices in the Garden and beyond. The first step in every bad choice is doubting God's love for us. God loves us so much that, despite our sins, He sees potential in every one of us, and all we have to do is trust in His goodness and truth. Cling to your life raft, BB! I am on the other side of it--you can't see me but I am here--clinging, clinging, clinging to our Hope and our Savior!

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In Christ Alone my hope is found said...

Wow BB, you wrote exactly how I feel too...although I think I actually am jaded a biggest fear is, "am I wrong?"...what if I'm wrong and everyone else is right? Why not just conform so that you can have fellowship and be strengthened by fellow christians in real life. Is it wrong if I help out a Calvary chapel Christian with a place to stay for their youth group meetings? An I bidding them Godspeed and so becoming a partaken of any evil deeds that may arise from that. I feel like I'm ready to chew my own arm off sometimes just to show my commitment to the Lord( I have a large tattoo on that arm)...other times I feel like does any of this even matter?? Does not celebrating Christmas really matter, forcing my family to be so different but giving them no outside support...if we can't find like minded people around us are we allowed to lower the bar for what we will accept...what if I'm wrong and the bar changes? I then cut them off?? I am at a point where I have more questions than answers and have become frozen in my walk...I feel like if I push in any direction I may find a cliff and send myself or my family over it with more things we can't do or churches we can't go to...I live in south Florida and we use to go to Disney World..but I told my family we can't anymore a few years ago because of what it represents. But am I wrong? Am I just nitpicking? Who is right and who is to say? If I have no Godly counsel around to help even in the little things I fear I may just lose my religion one day.

Debra said...

Note: Their recommendation is deal with your own conscience but we won't rebuke you for worshiping a false god. From Ephesians blog; In 1992-1993, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) investigated Freemasonry and published A Study of Freemasonry and issued a A Report on Freemasonry which contained the following recommendation:

In light of the fact that many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, while others are compatible with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, we therefore recommend that consistent with our denomination’s deep convictions regarding the priesthood of the believer and the autonomy of the local church, membership in a Masonic Order be a matter of personal conscience. Therefore, we exhort Southern Baptists to prayerfully and carefully evaluate Freemasonry in light of the Lordship of Christ, the teachings of the Scripture, and the findings of this report, as led by the Holy Spirit of God.
Ephesian's comment: The study and report were produced by the Home Mission Board (HMB) of the SBC. The trustees of the HMB (about 80 people) were notified in writing of the existence of a Masonic savior prior to reviewing A Report on Freemasonry which contained the recommendation that membership be only a matter of personal conscience. Even though they had direct evidence that Freemasonry has a secret savior, the trustees voted to approve the heretical position. The report was carried before the entire convention in 1993 and approved by the messengers from the various churches. At that point, the Southern Baptist Convention, as a denomination, voted to continue to allow Freemasons to use the churches as a cover while they meet in secret in the lodge to teach salvation on the basis of imitating Hiram Abiff.

Debra said...

Jude 1:7

King James Version
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE.

The key word is eternal, it never ends.

Anonymous said...

BB. I'm sorry to hear you're having doubts. there are people who do feel that the faith is a contest. These type of people are mostly glorying in the flesh. We as believer have nothing to be proud of save Christ Jesus. I myself have been called a legalistic because, I feel the need to do what I can to uphold the scriptures and the faith. The bible tells us to strive to be perfect (complete) in all areas of the faith. Striving and accomplishing can at times be two different things as no one is perfect. I do label myself as a "fundamentalist" because I feel the only way worth living is for the Lord. this too is extremely hard when youre continuously attacked at every turn by the world and the ways thereof. I'm not claiming to be complete, but there is nothing wrong with striving...James

Philippians 3:14-15King James Version (KJV)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (complete), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Debra said...

I think there are voices in your head BB still saying you have no right to be heard. In Npd families the role of children is not determined by our own wills but the will of abusers. Your voice doesn't count, rather you are condemned, ignored, shunned if you happen to think for yourself and speak your mind. If you share your mind, you are either mocked, ignored or receive narcisstic rage because how dare you question, imply or make sense out of their whole stack of lies. They lie about their abuses pretending to be the victim and not the villain. So as the child grows up and they have followed the orders of the npd's around them, it leaves them questioning their own identity, value and worth. They either become npd's themselves because they have been taught well or they are like empty pots longing to be accepted, loved and filled. This is where they strive for approval and desperately need it. Their npd's not only deny them, raise the bar time and time again but also get pleasure out of their servants struggling in pain for approval. It leaves their servants in their place while they sit on their thrones commanding orders like cruel kings and queens. So transfer this scenario into the church system. We are to follow blindly, keep our mouths shut, make excuses for hypocrisy and false teachings, never point out that your pastor is not a pastor at all but a Freemason/Luciferian. I Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

Anonymous said...

William. Actually Christianity is "knowing all the right doctrines". Without these doctrines (the Word), there is no Christianity. Mother Teresa did good works (or so we're told), but she's in hell. She taught that all religions lead to "god". Good works comes after believing on Christ Jesus and has nothing to do with salvation. You speak as though Gods Word is useless, but it might be in your "religion".....James

William Sculley said...

Re: "William. Actually Christianity is "knowing all the right doctrines"."

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I don't seem to see a doctrinal quiz in that passage. Do you?

There is no doctrinal quiz for salvation. A person with an IQ of 40 can be a Christian. He obviously couldn't discuss the meanings of the hypostatic union of humanity and divinity found in Christ, but he is still saved. A 5 year old child couldn't explain the things which are wrong with the doctrine of Pelagianism, but he doesn't need to in order to be a true Christian.

When Christ is asked "how do I obtain eternal life", He does not say "you must answer these doctrinal questions correctly". He said "LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might, and love your neighbor as yourself."

Following this instruction will make you desire to know the truth about Who God is, but being incomplete in your knowledge of Who God is will not exclude you from heaven. This is why Orthodoxy, while firm in its teaching that it presents the original teaching (the Orthodoxia) of Christ and the Apostles, does not say that people cannot be saved if they are outside of the Orthodox Church. We say we can't attest to their salvation, but not that they aren't saved.

The only person who can say Mother Theresa is in hell is God. Unless you were recently granted omniscience, you don't know she is in hell. The limit of your judgement is what you can see here on earth. Do you know what is in her heart? No.

teshuvahmusic said...

Yes, what Abigail said! I've always known you are the real deal, BB. That's kept me coming back to your blog over the years, even when I disagreed with you on something 180 degrees. Abba led me to you back when I first started my journey of "coming out of Her" around 2010. I can't say or estimate how much your studies of the NWO, the Harlot, etc. impacted me as I was starting to see the "web" of deception woven throughout all aspects of society. Now I'm learning how to have balance -- to keep that knowledge in mind, but still function in society without becoming a hermit (which is really tempting at times!).

I know this is a really, really tough time (as if your life leading up to this point hasn't been tough already...), but I'm actually excited for you. I think you'll find a lot of freedom being "out" of the church system completely, and allowing yourself the freedom to question "doctrines of men" that you were taught. My prayer for you has been that you will overcome any temptation to go "back" to a different part of the Harlot due to sheer loneliness and doubt. I knew many earnest young evangelicals in college who turned Catholic, Anglican, or Orthodox because the church they were raised in no longer held up to scrutiny, and the supposed "ancient Christianity" seemed to fill the void. I was tempted myself. It seems so safe. You will likely be attacked/enticed by voices wanting you to "return to the roots of your ancient faith" or whatever. The doctrines can sound so attractive when you're exiting fundamentalism. And it's not that they are not wonderful people, but (you already know) what they believe is corrupted. Stay strong!

dreamzzzz said...

Dear Sister-in- Christ, I am in a strange place now as well. I am depressed. The Last time I commented to the Lori's post, I was crying and did not want to hide my emotions. I and my husband moved along with our 2 baby girls (aged 2 and 5) to a different country. My husband always wanted to make the move there and we prayed over it. I, in particular felt that the Lord wanted us to move. Since moving here, its been very hard for my husband to get a job. At 2 places, he was almost promised an offer letter but then nothing happened. It has been quiet draining both emotionally and financially. I am hoping that the Lord God our father hears and answers our cry for help. We came out of the catholic church back in 2014. We dont have any friends as such.. as most think we are strange. We do not go to any church. I would like to be a part of physical church, the last time I asked around, I was pointed to a Jehovah witness church. I dont think that lady was amused when I told her I did not agree with their teachings. I have always felt close to you.. and this post of yours put in words what I am going through as well now. I do believe you are a very mature sister in Christ, while I am still a toddler or worse maybe. Please keep us in your prayers. The Lord is our shepherd, we shall not want.

Paul said...

I have not read all the comments on your latest blog posting. so maybe this has been brought up already. I have to say I understand what you are going through. I have experienced similar struggles. My faith in who Christ is and what He has done for us never wavered. But I struggled with a lot of questions about why things are as they are. Especially when it comes to "churchianity". For years I was convinced there was something wrong with me. Why was my thinking different than most or all of the others in the church. I felt like a freak at times because I felt we should just trust the word of God and follow Christ alone. Not the church, or the pastors, or the christian celebrities. It was years later when God brought me to reality and the understanding of the fact that today's christianity?, or so its called, and the church are not at all the way Christ meant these things to be. It took me years to see that. What we could count on, for the most part, as being biblically christian a hundred years ago or more, have changed immmensely. I think one thing you need to keep in mind. And this is not speculation, or theory, or some mad fantasy. It is true. And that truth is the church, the bible colleges,christian t.v. and radio, the pews as well, have been flooded with Freemasons, Jesuits (or their sympathizers), and with those who may believe in Christ, but have never had a personal relationship with Him. They have never trusted in Him alone for their salvation. They have never learned to surrender all to Christ and live in wilful submission to Him and His word alone. I am certain many have never really repented. That is why we don't feel we "fit in". Its because we shouldn't fit in with what has filled these places today. I used to feel like an outcast and it was not good.It was horrible and very lonely at times. But now, I see what is really going on. And I thank God He took me away from all that evil and set me aside for Himself. I am closer to Christ now then I ever was before. And I can only thank Him for His mercy and grace toward me. So be encouraged.

Debra said...

BB, you are so blessed not to be roped into a church system. Just watched on line the mega church fake pastor with his horn hands. I think the bigger picture is these church organizations will become operations where people are rounded up for the mark of the beast or whatever evil doings they conjure up. The sheep will blindly follow whatever the pastor says as he is suppose to love Jesus and could never steer them wrong. Churches will be like stations where those who have attended will need to meet to get their mark or as I said be told you have to give up your I.d., money or whatever as they will be guardians of your property as it funnels through to the evil ones. Where else can these luciferians get Christians to go against God blindly? Some will be confused but go ahead because they do not truly know Jesus, others will coerce others into obeying the pastor and leaders, others will scratch their heads in indecision wanting to follow but questioning. Some may get it and flee.

Anonymous said...

William. There is plenty of doctrine there that you seem to have conveniently missed. The ones in Christs right hand (sheep) inherited the kingdom that was prepared for them from the foundation of the world. This kingdom was promised to all who believe (sheep) since the very beginning. It isn't something that's handed out to those who glory in their own rightousness (or lack thereof) like you seem to do. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so it's only fitting his kingdom was set up at the same time. Please quit spreading papal propaganda. God promised eternal life to all who believe on his Son, and this promise was made from the foundation of the world. It was given to anyone whosoever would believe on him. I can literally quote a dozen verses that prove Matthew 25 is not speaking of works salvation. Every single Catholic apologist who gets their apologetics from Catholic websites like William have not taken the time to study the scriptures. They are more worried about how people perceive their false works based religion. You cannot work your way to heaven. This idea is squashed in the first book of the bible. Cain who offered God the works of his own hands that came from the field was rejected. The Tower of Babel is an incident were people were literally trying to work their way to heaven, how did that turn out? William, what makes you think your works are any better than anyone else's, and that these works are good enough to save you? You reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. You reject the works of Christ, and think the only reason he came and dwelt amongst us was to teach us how to save ourselves through "sacraments". You make "flesh your arm", and you want to lead as many people as you can to hell with you. You're not just an average person who hasn't heard the gospel, you've heard it and reject it in favor of a false gospel and "another jesus". You are a worker of iniquity and I'm absolutely positive you know it....James

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Anonymous said...

William. Again you're denying Gods Word in favor of papal superstitions. You deny everything the bible says. Agnes (Theresa) said that all religions lead to the same "god" which is in complete opposition to what Jesus himself said. How can you call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ? It's plain to see you're not. Do you follow his sayings? It's proven here that not only do you not follow them, but you 100% reject them.....James..........John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death

Anonymous said...

It saddens me to see that some people attempt to profess the Lord Jesus Christ but deny his Word even to the point of trying to cast doubt on it. God promised to preserve it and he did. Gods Word is in every Language. I'd like to see anyone post proof that Freemasons corrupted the English bible. It was the Freemasonic historian Manly P Hall who invented the story of Francis Bacons involvement in the 1611 translation. There is zero evidence to back this up.....James

Bible Believer said...

Debra, they sure love their titles, all the phony doctors are a bit much too, it seems the longer titles are to bring the most honor too. People do love the money machine. I always thought 1 Corn 3:4 was interesting given how many Christian sects are named after a man, Lutheranism, Mennonites etc.

I have asked God too where any real leaders are too, even finding out the falseness of so many discernment ministries was scary.

Hi Homeward Bound welcome to the blog, yes that would be hard that your husband still wants to go to church. My husband can take or leave church which is a blessing in disguise I suppose. I would not want to see the Christian Zionist flag up front or the false Dominionist flag.

Sure I remember the praise for the Graham's in Calvary Chapel, it never let up and those Graham Christmas shoeboxes are all over the churches here.

Hmm the Presbyterian church without a pastor, they probably are better off without one. LOL Maybe they will study themselves out of Calvinism, I think most churches would be better off. I have seen the almost dead [5-10] people churches around here, with the very old in the churches. There's a reason the young have all left.

I think an equal group like that too is more what it was supposed to be like instead of the one man show. Thanks for saying I am filling a fellowship void here, I hope so. IRL I know it's got to get lonely for others here too. Thanks for your encouragement.

Thanks for scripture.

Bible Believer said...

I am sorry anon you have felt discouraged too, yeah I wonder how many are in a strange place spiritually. I have posted in some strange places online, talking about some of these issues, I am trying to work out in my mind. How many look at the "Trumpkin" 'Christian' world and want to throw up? Yes be careful in the IFB, it can wear you down. I know I got wore down, and well some of these effects I am facing are from severe spiritual abuse married to the more subtle in the IFB, I am even dealing with the fact, that some of these thing are tied to my spiritual abuse for leaving the Catholic church very young. In the IFB appearances count for a lot. I know I have been very disillusioned, even with my past "good" IFB pastor, I got the feeling of condemnation that was there when he told me I was wrong to explore corruptions in Christianity, I realized I never fit in that church either, even though they were kind to me, I was considered worldly in my art, and my husband didn't conform to their ideas of patriarchy. I had negative thoughts about this pastor anyhow as I am friends with him on Facebook and he went to Africa, for some missions trip, and he owns a boat,and goes on extensive vacations with it and I had the thought this is not someone would relate to my life. He wrote many people left but no one ever had come to him to discuss any troubles, well there is no open-ness in this circles only social showing offs.

Bible Believer said...

I wondered about NPD too later in this church,many of the NPDs on the outside will appear kind, and some are more covert but you never see any vulnerability among that set. They are never wrong or plagued with doubts, and yes you will see hypocrisy. I am feeling some pain wondering at the time I wasted in false religious circles, knowing what I sought was never to be found IRL anyway, and I have to admit here, at darkest moments I have said to husband the ideals of Christianity are not bearing out in reality--this pain with the fellowship.

I am in a troubled spot with God right now. The issues are the wicked being able to continue unrestrained like the spiritual abuser, the total destruction and death of a family member I once cared about--narcopaths, had her cut me off years ago and claimed guardianship over her, the continued issues of my own life, you all have heard about---being brought to a ruin of sorts etc. So yes I have felt shut down by God as well, and the discouragement is terrible. I understand the feeling of not wanting to rebel against God to rebel against man. I feel like I am walking on some spiritual cliff now. So yes I understand. Then I have that added baggage of having been told I am never good enough, and sometimes people get tired. I don't want to be threatened or hurt anymore.

I get the feeling all those pastors in the IFB believe if you even step off the reservation a little bit, you never really were saved. When I left the IFB here, I was seen as the wicked woman who "had gone liberal" or something like that. They were outraged I was against war. I never fit in there either. Maybe what we are experiencing is some kind of "Christian" identity crisis. Yes you will be seen out of God's will. I got the feeling in the IFB my non-Christian past made me a forever outsider anyhow. In the first one I openly shared in the second I didn't knowing they saw it as some kind of shame.

I found that Stuff Fundies Like website interesting too. I posted there on occasion but they didn't like me much, putting me in the fundie camp just like the ex-IFB pastor. I still read his website, and I noticed he complains a lot about the same things I do, but because I still am a Christian, well that's enough in those circles. Yes many are losing faith or acquire faith via spiritual abuse. I feel compassion for people like that, while the rest of the Christian world just wants to stomp on them. You didn't conform, so we gave up on you for good.

Bible Believer said...

When I read what they are put through, the control, the abuse, etc, there's people where you know why they rejected Who they think God is. I am even trying to deal with some of these issues myself while remaining a Christian. I hate most of the "Christian" world though, it troubles me. That pastor lambasting me over becoming jaded, that hurt, it's like I am supposed to remain in the place of never thinking about anything and he said this over the very mild I did show. Conform and pay. That sums up the church world. He told me he lost members who just walked away. I can see why now.

I agree with your advice, we have to be free of the Pharisee requirement rampant in the entire spiritual industrial complex that we all measure up, and be something ELSE, and "achieve" this crazy level of perfection, and they don't just expect it spiritually in their gospel of works but in life too. Same for the spiritual abuser, same for the Catholic and IFB church, this picture perfect version of life, they smack people over the head with as they keep their narcissistic perfection masks on and never admit any foibles.

I am asking God to show me what He wants too. Being in this place is not easy. I will pray for your Bible studies too. Thanks for your kind words regarding the blog. Yes I understand with the jaded piece, while that pastor did have the attitude of me just closing the door and not thinking about anything there is a lot to be careful of too. I even backed away from a lot too. I will pray for you. Thanks for your kind words

Bible Believer said...

Yeah stick to God's Word anon and don't worry about community, I know it is something I have to let go of myself. I agree about the power and riches of leadership in the churches, one church that helps the poor around here at least, is raising three million dollars for a infrastructure campaign. I think about that kind of stuff, that is a lot of money. At least this one feeds the poor some,but that's a lot of wealthy people with money to give.

Good verses I am planning to do a bible study for myself personally on the love of God with concordance etc, I need some spiritual feeding in scripture. It does help me when people post here verses they have chosen.

I know I have to confront some of how my picture of God became. It needs changed and dealt with. I think this can happen to many with the church system and the world, denying the love of God and showing a false God.

Thanks anon, sounds like you have been down the same path. Sorry you have faced the disappointments/rejections and betrayals. I certainly want no one else to go through this.I am glad these things have taken you closer to God. I know this dealing with not being driven by God may be a test of many a Christian. I have to remember that many will hear the messages of this world to drown out God. "God" i1 John 4:7King James Version (KJV)

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.n false religious circles is presented as an ogre and I need to find the love again.

Bible Believer said...

will respond to more posts later, have to get going. thanks everyone.

Anonymous said...

Thanks BB for your response. I needed that today! I agree about anything out of the IFB cookie cutter mold being worldly - our kids are in public school and some activities, I have to work, just those things alone "made us worldly" and we are looked down on and have been preached against (but then told we weren't preached against, go figure). Yet I've seen just even lately, some very worldly shows of things on Facebook with preachers and others I know. I have strange thoughts, but I wonder who defines what "worldly" is? Why is it always us and not them? What makes some things wicked but not others? What makes some things "modest" for some but not others? The thing I struggle most with, and have felt so beaten down about, are the "unwritten rules". "Her skirt is above the knee, and she's fine because she's "Sister so and so", but you're skirts below the knee but you need more teaching on modesty." (that really happened to me) "It's OK for me to watch those wicked shows on TV, but if you do X-Y or Z, you're not in God's will and it's BAD"." I've noticed so much outright lying trying to cover up too. I've just gotten to the point where I'm not trying to impress anyone or give anyone the impression that we are "doing things right" in their rule book. It's going to take a lot of prayer, I know I said this before but I really don't want to rebel against God but I'm fed up with the man made stuff (that seems to change as much as I change my socks and you can never quit nail it down what you "should" be doing). I like your cliff analogy, that's what I feel like, please know I'm not one to be like " close can I get to sin without actually sinning?" that's not it at's the unwritten stuff that keeps changing that just has me exhausted and I'm done.

Your comment about your husband being outside that patriarchal system got me...I have a wonderful husband, he is a great dad...but he isn't a preacher, and of course I work which is a strike against him, and he would be the first to admit it, but he is not included in different things and has also been unable to find any true fellowship because of it. I've been praying for him to find a good saved friend, he's been discouraged too.

I too came out of the RCC and others, and I agree that there is this element that you are "never quite one of us". Not saying this to be arrogant, I can't brag, none of it is of my own merits, but I have learned a tremendous amount in the five years I've been saved, led by the Holy Spirit, coming from someone who five years ago did not know the story of Jonah really, until now having been given a great gift by God. I would imagine most of us who have landed here have had similar experiences. I have found that I have more knowledge than some preachers we've had through, yet there are certain people in the church (generally other women) who at every turn will put me down, try to make me feel ignorant and stupid as if I couldn't possibly be up to their standards about things, it is endlessly frustrating and wearing. I don't need anyone lifting me up, I wouldn't want that, but please don't make me feel stupid either. It's also very cliquish, other people are invited to church dinners and not us, we aren't a "preachers family", we're just clearly always below the bar.

Anonymous said...

I agree about the Trumpkins, I just don't get that either, even a very basic look at him and his family and you see 1) Jesuit educated and 2) Chabad Lubavitcher (Kushner) and at least the Jesuit piece should throw up some red flags if you have any idea about Rome. I don't say too much about it anymore, I just keep getting told "he's better than Hillary would have been". Maybe in a more short term way, but I would imagine the long term effect is no different. I'm often shocked that more don't see that. I always enjoy the Reagan worship too, decades later, all I can think about is Bohemian Grove and his New Age wife. So there goes me and my strange thoughts again lol. My thoughts are not popular.

What you said about being a wicked liberal woman when you left made me laugh...I've read this blog for a long time and that would never be the words I'd use to describe you lol. But I get it. It's ironic, my oldest child was just saying last night, worrying about if we ever left, we'd just be the subject of endless preaching (probably even in other connected churches) "we once had this family, they seemed so wonderful, but they fell out of church and must not have ever really been saved.....or fell into the world....or whatever the case may be" I knew she was right.

I too worry about the fellowship piece, and wonder why I want to be around so few people. Part is simply my own social anxiety, resulting from my childhood...but I know what the Bible says about the "love of the brethren" and I get worried, wondering if it is something wrong with me. It has even caused me to worry that maybe I'm not saved, if I don't desire to be with so many others who say they are saved. Quite honestly, I've probably never worried more since I've been in the IFB, about whether I'm really saved or not. I can't put my finger on why that is either, it is endlessly unsettling. Maybe it's just because I never quite measure up. I don't know. There also appears to be so many theatrics around "getting saved", I never had that, maybe that's part of it. I do have periods of peace and then it starts up again, who knows. I know we are to examine ourselves, but it is beyond that.

Thank you for the prayers, I'm praying for you too. I better wrap this up, have to leave shortly but wanted to answer while I still had my thoughts in my head... Take care.

Bible Believer said...

Debra agree about the royal robes vs rags though many of Gods are dressed in rags on earth.

Thank you anon, for posting the verse,

"to whom shall we go?"

Yeah that one hits me. I even said to husband, as troubled as I am with God, where do I go? I may show him this discussion.

Atheism is not an escape hatch here. Some get fed up and while they have the conscience to see the evil of the religious system, the atheist leaders are just as "owned as the religious" leader. Didn't I post on that once long ago? Where they showed the same hand signs as our owned politicians and the rest.

Even when I have been on religious doubter boards a lot have been abused into their despair. Some who are young raised in bad churches will see Buddha, escaping the "matrix' or the "arachons"/thetans, Vishnu etc, as their escape.

I am examining myself, I see the very bad traps that have been laid too. I can't even explain here, though I have done in other places the depths of the evil I was surrounded by as a child. I was told then God was not for me and I was of the evil one. The spiritual abuser took that to town and ran with it. The religious voices telling me I was cursed and unloved, etc, all played their role. Add in the deforming physical problems, and disabilities and poverty and it became a toxic stew. One thing, and maybe some can address this that troubled me, was that.

I am questioning what brought me to the place to question the nature of God. Yes God has to be good or He is not God. I have had so many late night discussions with husband and tears, on this very issue. You helped me a lot with that one verse.

Thank you for your encouragement.

Bible Believer said...

William thanks for the invites, I am sorry you were hurt by the IFB, we may disagree about the church you are in, but I am understand leaving the IFB, there is untold damage being done to so many people. We agree about the hateful political stances, and well you gotta a point there is no difference between a Pope and Protestant/evangelical religious leaders.

That is terrible about your brother, one thing I noticed in the IFB and too many fundie circles is that mercy was a foregone conclusion, there was judgment for me, even speaking of my past. It was always weird to me how the pro-lifers wanted to get the scarlet As and slap them on both unwed father and mothers, at least these were people who made the decision to not abort. With an attempted suicide, I don't even want to know what they put your family through. One thing I noted is struggles with depression were deemed as sinful and that troubles me to this day. I am glad your father survived. They treated your mother wrong too, they probably had to make up new versions of your families history to explain their own false theology and rejection of realities when it comes to human mental wellness. I agree with you that with no love, doctrinal truth, doesn't matter. Some of the most cold hard Calvinists make these endless lists of doctrines.
I am glad your churches at least reject shunning.

I agree with you about the IFB, they have become museums for the saints. So many to keep perfect appearances, and only people with the right family, right socioeconomic class etc, need only apply. I believe there is racism, I even wondered about a taint towards me, as I am a "darker" white person within IFBs, lets just say people who look Italian/Greek/biracial/Hungarian or whatever I am--I seriously don't know...don't fit into some religious circles.

With Christians you will know them by their fruits, those who support oppression of different sorts, I do not consider Christians. I am sorry you face loneliness too. Yes illness can do that. I get housebound a lot. LOL you probably remember what life was like for church truants within the IFB. Thanks for saying that people aren't going to pretend they are perfect here. We definitely need more of that. The perfect ones, or what scripture would refer to as Pharisees are creating a lot of pain.

Bible Believer said...

Anon, LOL I remember the stuff with public school, I used to support homeschooling more then I do now. I do believe it can be done right on occasion, but I have met too many people who have been abused in a homeschooling situation. There needs to be more protections. The Duggar adult kids are so behind it's not funny. What I find most sad, is some of them could have been geared towards more fulfilling and maybe even more intellectually based career but it looks like all the men will be doing nothing but fixing cars without the benefit of mechanics school, and mowing lawns for their Dad for the rest of their lives. I saw homeschoolers in the IFB and while some children were happy althought a bit sheltered, I knew some didn't like being denied going to school with children in their neighborhood. There is a bit much of the siege mentality in the evangelical world especially IFB. Yes don't let them judge you. Many people need to work too. One salary or wage will not keep the bills paid. Yes I have heard the sermons where one gets preached against. LOL there was at least one sermon starring me when the pastor preached against those who believe the church system is falling away and people are leaving.

I agree who defines what "worldly" is and how many things they consider "bad" aren't mandated against in scripture? There is like this Christian culture, that defines good and bad that is legalistic and way away from scripture. So sorry you got the dress legalism. yes some of that freaked me out too. There were so many rules, sometimes I even felt like having patterns on my dresses was judged, and this was not a Mennonite church, or I wore too many necklaces with beads but then I was weird because I did not wear makeup and could not afford perms or hair coloring.

Bible Believer said...

I agree it's a better path to take not worrying about impressing anyone. Sadly some can get closed out of the circles even in a subtle fashion, I know it takes a lot of prayer. I know these feelings were mirrored by the treatment I got in my family, my family all makes 6 figures and above, some are multi-millionaires, and very uber Catholic culturally and otherwise though more of the young have gone down agnostic high way like the whole family of homosexuals.

I don't want to rebel against God either. These people have driven me so over the bend, it can make a person feel like rejoining the world. I have definitely loosened up on some things, though, and have worried about what an affect I had on others. Did I hurt them with my own legalisms? This is the bad effect the Pharisees can have on religion. If you read stories of adults who grew up fundamentalist and then became atheists or became done with religion, the stories of abuse, beat downs, and endless rules are very high. Don't forget I became an atheist very young under rule obsessed Catholic parents, I wasn't even allowed to talk to boys lest I "come home pregnant" or something like that.

It is a narcissistic system, the goal posts always change, like with my experience with that deliverance ministry, oh you didn't fully repent of your past dabbling in the occult, now it's your hearing secular music or going to a secular theatre play. many of the people preaching do all the things they say they are against.

Yes I feel on the edge of the cliff too. One sides says "to whom shall we go" see post above, and one is probably the devil plaguing me, "you have failed as a Christian, look at you and your life!" The Phariseeism is enough to just wear people out. I am tired of all the unwritten rules and the social and cultural things I never could match to and I'm such an "outcast" in American society, LOL I had no hope of faking it until I could make it. I am glad you relate to my feelings too of all the unwritten rules and the burdens the Pharisees have laid.

To be honest, I am glad I married who I married, one of the Pharisees, it would have been miserable. I want husband to become a Christian, but then maybe he is more Christian then some of those people. Your husband should not be treated that way, no way.

Yes you faced what I did, I erred telling the first church I came out of the RCC and the UU, the second one, I kept my mouth shut because during time in Calvary Chapel, I could tell this was pigeon-holing me as I hadn't had a life according to script. Religious circles are not that friendly to the disabled, but that would take it's own post. It seems that for churches where they preach be born again, they would have celebrated converts! And been happy for what we came out of, but in my case it just set me apart too. Yes with knowledge, I agree many of the pastors remained on this superficial level. Silly me used to try and get in well meaning religious discussions with them, not to try and tell them do this or that, or believe this but just for some "food" and some "meat". It was always a failed experiment. I felt like just by doing that alone, they saw me as trouble coming and a rule-breaker. These discussions I had with husband present.

Sorry some of the women treat you that way. It just isn't right.Many people attest to be treated this way at church, it is very cliquish and makes everything a contest too. I have in life outside a few nice Lutherans who are genuinely nice people even though I don't agree with their church, am finding myself wanting to avoid befriending "church women". Some here will know what I mean.

William Sculley said...

So because I accept that a man is judged according to his deeds and not intellectual knowledge, I'm horrible. You're the one saying that God would throw my baby brother into hell because he is incapable of knowing those things.

It isn't papal anything. It's there in Matthew 25. Unless you're saying that the Pope edited the Scripture.

Bible Believer said...

With the Trumpkins, how could they forget the 1980s but even the thinnest sliver of "conspiracy" knowledge points to Trump as evil but then all one has to do is look at the guy too with open eyes and see the pursed mouth, the childishness, open insults and overt narcissism. Sure I heard praise for Reagan multiple times in the last IFB, it floored me. I couldn't believe people could be so blind. I kind of went quiet I had so many bad run-ins, and yes I was considered strange too. With the internet, the Bohemian Grove and Mrs. Reagans astrology are known about, the cognitive dissonance must be so strong, I don't know.

Yes they see me as a wicked liberal woman. My old IFB pastor I think has put me in some kind of non-category, it's like people's minds have this build up infrastructure and anything that doesn't fit, is dismissed and put in the OPPOSITE category. Yeah your daughter is right you will be used as an example. I bet my words to some of the members of the last IFB if they got to the pastor at all, would have been the source of some sermon, maybe Romans 13 and how wicked people who do not support leaders in war decisions are all going to hell.

I get worried too about the love of the brethren, I am a near hermit, in society, and even opportunities to talk deeply with anyone are pretty removed. My own rejection of Christian circles has been part of this angst, like what I posted about avoiding church women as friends, it has made me question things about me being a Christian. "To whom will I go?" I don't fit in liberal, atheist circles either, I kind of already ran that experiment, LOL How many leave the churches like us, and fall away or it alters their relationship with God for the worse. I know some of the outraged church people will post memes on Facebook, you were looking at man instead of God, but when people abuse others in the name of God, they are not helping people to be close to God. Yes I have wondered what is wrong with me too. Remember I have been writing this blog for 7 years, and inside I had this growing dread, that most of the religious crowd would be ready to put me away for most of it, and well if not that, they would be decrying me over endless issues here. I question myself because there is this ideal of Christian fellowship and if I can't get along with Christians offline, what does that say about me? [I have some church friends who are the more open types etc....I get along with but evangelical IFB circles, forget it]

I don't feel right in religious circles either, and the last IFB well I relate to all your emotions. Even that bible study I visited I felt scared and ill. I have some social anxiety too, but in religious places the dial gets turned up 10 fold, that is not a good sign.

Thanks for your comments anon, I appreciate it.

William Sculley said...

BB: Boy do I remember what happens to church truants. I was the black sheep. For a person with azbergers, social skills aren't too abundant. So I didn't make many friends. The only person I remember positively from there is a girl name Michelle, someone who had it set in her mind that nobody deserves to feel alone. She's married with children now, but I think she's the one that kept me from committing suicide then.

Debra said...

The opposite has been for me. When we decided to leave the organized church system I stopped to think for myself which led me to a closer walk with the Lord. These churches wanted to mold me into some kind of fake reality of a Christian. It was more superficial. My heart is for God and my love is deeper now. I can hear from Him more clearly and He has revealed much more since we have been out. My heart is to be used of Him for His glory so I ask the Lord wherever I go to bring people on my path. So far in the last three days He has done just that. Ran into a person I knew from years back. At the time God would cause us to meet such as being parked next to each other at the grocery store without our knowing or the same day at another location. It happened again just this last weekend. I prayed again the next day and again I ran into someone else that I knew who was on my heart. Ministry was happening the way God planned it. Today, I started talking with a young mom whose name is Naomi and her mother's name is Ruth. Ministry happened. So when we desire for God to use us, all we need to do is ask. He has given us all gifts and HE will provide opportunities to bring Him glory. I also realize being accepted or rejected isn't important. We are here for the Lord, He loves us. There are people who are cold and evil in and out of churches. The tares are growing with the wheat. I just want to be where God wants not only in ministry but in my heart where I say Jesus I trust You, then follow Him only.

Anonymous said...

I have wondered the same thing, if I hurt others previously with stances I took. I was a fundamentalist with a capital "F", I felt into that trap of pride over being "right". I've long said there's alot of pride attached to being "the one true church" (Catholicism, and I know this well personally, I'm not just spouting off), which is scary to me, it gets in the way of a person being able to accept they are lost, but the same kind of pride exists in all "systems" including IFB.

I know I posted things on Facebook and said things that were offputting to people. Not that there aren't plenty of people who don't want to hear any type of truth anyhow, and hated me for even quoting Scripture, but this was different, I do worry about it now. I too have loosened up, not from the Bible at all but from all the expectations and trappings and Pharisee-type behavior. I have really just hoped that people see honesty in me now, but the love of Jesus foremost, and that I don't think I'm better than they are because I'm not. I would not want to drive people away from God. I can't go back and change it now, just go forward.

William Sculley - I just wanted you to know I'm praying for you too. Although I disagree doctrinally, I welcome seeing your comments here and am glad that you feel free to post as you do, and keep visiting BB's blog. I know it is hard to have poor health, and loneliness just compounds that. This life can be such a struggle. Anyhow, just wanted to say that...take care and know there are others here that are praying for you as well.

Anonymous said...

William. These people posting here don't understand that you're a catholic apologist who is just making his rounds spreading Catholic doctrine and purposefully casting doubt on the scriptures. It is the scriptures that "make one wise unto salvation" that is by faith on Christ Jesus. Without knowing this you cannot be saved, without the scriptures you cannot be saved. You deny Jesus Christ by denying his Word. He is the Word made flesh, so the Words you see in the holy bible are the exact Words God used to speak the world into existence. Jesus is the Word that created the world. You cannot separate the scriptures from Christ like the RCC tries to do.
I've not once said a child is damned, so it seems you're resorting to bearing false witness for whatever reason. There does become an age of accountability, and this comes when someone recognizes right from wrong. The bible says if you know something is wrong and you do it anyway it is sin. Your "church" doesn't teach this. In fact your "church" teaches that if a child isn't baptized they will go to hell. It also use to teach that if anyone (including children) are not part of your church, there is no salvation for them, so I don't understand how you can throw around accusations without examining your own "religion"......James

Anonymous said...

BB. I've been discussing false doctrine with an apologist, and I apologize if the discussions aren't "nice" or "loving". When someone starts preaching a false works based salvation, I always feel the need to defend the scriptures. I will refrain from any more discussions with William. When I seen him posting on a couple YouTube channels I was talking to a friend on I realized by looking at other channels with similar topics that he is all over YouTube doing these things. Now he's found his way here. I'm sure you're use to this sort of thing by now. Again I didn't mean to steer your blog in another direction. I apologize.....James

Bible Believer said...

James, thanks, I definitely cannot accept Orthodoxy so don't worry, I do hope there is a good reason William has been on here for as long as he has. He did admit being gung-ho for the Orthodox message elsewhere online.

Bible Believer said...

Debra I am glad you became closer to God. Yes the fake reality is imposed on too many people. So glad you have this close relationship to God. I know being out of the churches gave me the place to write about some of what I had here. I too had some of those days, it is a listening to God, instead of the pastors, you know...
I am happy you had those ministry opportunities. I do know sometimes I can talk about Jesus to non-believers outside of the "church" context and get somewhere, that has been a blessing, and it has happened several times.

Yes I worry about days as a fundamentalist with a capital F, sometimes I want to erase that fairy article. LOL. I still do believe the same way about their origins but believe that article may have just brought more outrage and questions of my sanity. Maybe not the best witness but we are really in a world sheepdipped in legends, myths and fantasies, that have a reason to exist. LOL so yeah I examine myself too with this stuff. It's hard you know. Yes the IFB and all systems can have the pride.

With Facebook, all the people who couldn't stand all the Jesus Christ is the only and one way posts and posts against the one world religion already unfriended me. I seem to have a lot of "freethinker" followers, independent Christian types and "interested" non-believers. There's a few Catholic acquaintances on there, not sure what they thought when I posted against the Pope a few times.

so yeah I worry about being a Pharisee too. I don't think I am better then anyone. Some people have prejudices of course about Christians on there end. Thanks for praying for William too. Yes poor health and loneliness can be hard burdens to bear in this world.

Anonymous said...

Hey James -

I do know that, and I am praying for him. I thought about what I wrote last night, he's been here a long time, whatever the case may be, I know he's heard truth and I just keep praying that he will SEE truth and get saved. I didn't feel led to say anything further. Personally, I'm not going accept Orthodoxy either, no matter what is said.

I have close family who are blinded by Catholicism, and have learned all the RCC arguments for the Scripture that doesn't add up with their faith. In that case, they are not professional apologists, just average people who believe what they have been told, and have studied their doctrine (at Catholic colleges), and it makes me sad. Only God can open their eyes, I can't, but I witness as I'm able and pray for them.

Don't apologize for how your discussion is, you have to respond how you feel led, as I did. Not my blog, but for what it's worth, I think it's good for someone to refute, in case there are newer Christians who have found their way here, lest they be led down a wrong path.

Jude 3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

William Sculley said...

James, casting doubt on your personal interpretation of the Scriptures is NOT the same as casting doubt on the Scriptures. Yes Scriptures can make you wise, but Timothy also had two very important people in his life, and ninety percent of people back then couldn't read, so I guess you believe they would never be wise to salvation since they can't use the Scriptures. And I bet those people who lived 500 miles away from Scriptures never got wise to salvation.

And yes, you are the one that tossed doubt onto the salvation of my brother, by saying this: "William. Actually Christianity is "knowing all the right doctrines". Without these doctrines (the Word), there is no Christianity."

Joey could not know any doctrines. Since Christianity is knowing the right doctrines, then Joey is not saved.

The fact that I go around speaking what I believe to be true does not make me evil. I'm doing the same thing you're doing. The only difference is that mine doesn't rely on alternative history and purely private interpretation.

As to your claims about what my church teaches, that's a place I will tell you that you are either lying or ignorant. We teach nothing of the sort. if we were to find a priest saying those things, they would be defrocked and excommunicated. None of the three statements you made about us is correct. We do teach the nature of sin. We reject the Protestant doctrine of Total Depravity, which is ubiquitous in the west. If Total Depravity is correct, then every person is born in a state of damnation. Orthodoxy teaches that infants are born pure of sin, and then learn sin from us, the people around them, and by temptation. Baptism does not achieve salvation in its completeness. It is the beginning of one's relationship with Christ. Orthodoxy does NOT teach that there is no salvation outside of the Orthodox Church. We simply say we can't give any guarantee of salvation outside the Church. The Church isn't God, so it doesn't know where the Spirit does not work. We can only say where we know the Spirit IS working.

The Scriptures are a creation. They are not eternal in nature. They are passing. They will one day not be. They are a gift from God, but they are not God Himself. If the Scriptures had the same power that God has, it would be impossible to use them to preach anything you want.

Anonymous said...

Nahum 1:7 back for a brief addition to what I wrote a short time ago...

Years back I heard this – it resonated & stayed with me: "Truth without love is brutal. Love without truth is hypocrisy."
The ethnic background/religion I was born into was not RC but no denomination could be closer. Dead religion.
This statement below is from a former RC responding to someone telling him he is hateful. I love/agree with what he says here:

"There is nothing more wicked, evil, and cruel, than systematically deceiving people about where they will spend eternity. Those who die embracing the false and fatal gospel of Roman Catholicism, instead of obeying the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 The. 1:8-9). When you accuse me of hatred and cynicism, please know there is a distinction between who I love and what I hate. I rightfully hate the apostate religion which deceives people (Psalm 101:3, 7). I love with compassion the precious souls who are being deceived. The only hope for the deceived is to be lovingly confronted with the truth of God's Word. It has the power to set you free from the religious deception that holds you in bondage."

I have to always remind myself that when facing this kind of thing, if I truly love the person…well, I cannot withhold the truth and God’s word is where that is found. We will all be in this uncomfortable place as I once was with a former employer (RC). He was the best boss I ever had. Neither of us works "there" anymore (I left in 2001)yet he sends me a b'day card & a gift every year! When we e-mail or are out shopping & see one another, we engage. I pray for him regularly. We both have/had cancer. Anyway, I'll leave it at this. I'm a verbal/expressive woman & I must say 'enough' to my own self !

Anonymous said...

LOL BB, I just posted and then saw your new post. Don't erase the fairy article. It's a good one. I was talking to my husband last night about this post, and along those lines. More strange thoughts LOL, but these are really things I think about - there is such a focus on superficial honoring of God on outward appearance but not nearly as much of what goes in. Not that I think I should go out dressed like a hooker, but a T shirt and knee length skirt should not be "dishonoring to God". Is not going to church on a Wednesday night dishonoring to God? Tithing, same. I could go on but I think you get it. Like you said, going to a secular play or something like that, or listening to a secular song, unless it is really full of profanity or other content you would not probably want to see or hear anyhow, is it really dishonoring God? There is so much talk of "separation" but there really isn't "separation".

I see so many preachers wives and families who are into yoga and mysticism and post it on Facebook, and many went to see Beauty and the Beast with their kids (aside from the homosexual piece, Baphomet anyone? Very few people even touched that one and no one cares), many who are thoroughly steeped in and are obsessed with Disney and Disney witchcraft, and transhumanistic films like The Avengers and Captain America, and see no problems with it at all. And look at me like I'm a freak show if I bring up any arguments against it. People wear clothes FULL of occult symbolism (do you know how hard it is to shop for a teenage girl these days??? Aside from blatant immodesty, everything has New Age and occult symbols, mandalas, on it, it is really getting ridiculous.) In my humble opinion, those things are the real traps today.

Our kids begged and begged to watch "Moana" recently, I was sorry we did, it was FULL of New Age/Mother Gaia junk. But I feel like I'm always saying "no" to everything, and every now and then I get worn down. I saw another poster comment on this same thing earlier, but after awhile you not only realize you can't filter it all, it is like a tsunami, but when does it become a point where you just feel like the "fun sucker" all the time, and can't keep it up...? I don't even have a great answer for that. I feel their pain though, totally. Books for children are absolutely full of fallen angel/magic/vampires/occultism/evolution, I just want to weep every time I take them to the library and there is always discussion. I try my best but it is never enough these days. I just pray for them that they understand it so they can filter it out, what they do see.


Anonymous said...

Anyhow, my point to all of that. I can't decide what is "OK" anymore than the church folk can, but I have felt for a long time that those things ARE the Babylonian system in modern day form (among other things), and once you recognize them you can no longer be blind to them and NEED to come out of them. I truly can't even watch TV anymore, we are getting rid of ours soon, and I can't wait. Even the "innocent" appearing things have symbolism that I've caught. I appreciate your blog so much, you have helped me to see alot of that too, so please don't change. And I try to protect my children the best I can, so at least know they understand what it really is. You are right, the world is steeped in legends, myths etc and I too believe they have a purpose.

Most pastors are absolutely unaware and do not worn the people in the pews. But that really isn't even an excuse anymore, with the internet, everything I've found has been my own internet research. About five years ago, I asked the Lord to show me truth and He really has (even when sometimes I wish I didn't know!). I don't want to be seeing a boogey man around every corner either, but lately it really seems they are there. When you can't walk through Walmart without seeing water bottles with an eye of horus in the "666" finger sign...sigh. You know it's bad. But sadly, from looking around, at least in my own little circle, most don't even want to know, they just want to keep on being entertained by Babylon.

I have thought of this verse alot lately, Romans 11:4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Debra said...

How we see or view ourselves can be distorted, it is what God sees in us that counts. His love is infinite being faithful to who He is (2 Timothy 2:13). This is where we need to be in our identity. Not what church we belong to, who is our pastor, what school we went to, who we know, how popular we are among groups, what position or title we hold, where we live...all this is of the flesh. The trouble is we don't like to be judged or rejected so we tend to bend or compromise our real thoughts. Those who are bold will not have many friends unless they are the ones God intends for us to have.

I thought of Jesus who could not do many miracles even in His own home town. Is that shocking or what? Mathew 13:57-58 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

We either have God's Holy Spirit living inside of us or we don't, very simple theology.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Debra said...

Wanted to add when we stand before God or kneel before Him on that DAY He is not going to say what religion do you belong to? He is going to know whether you have His Holy Spirit living inside of you because you are truly one of His disciples.

Gayle said...

Continued** Now, I knew this before, right? But, no, He had clarified it for me. He's not the answer because of what I think He can do for me or how I think He should do for me what He can do for me. He's not the answer because of what He can give me as my answer or what I think He can give me because of the answer I think He is, but He Himself, He is the answer. He personally, in His Person, is the answer in all things because He is God and He alone is God. And He has and is fully capable of saving us. It's all in Him because He is all. He has made promises to us that He will keep, that He has kept. He has in fact already done all that He has said that He would do for us. This is His love, an act. He says, love does what it is, and He is love. He didn't just say He loved us and did nothing. That would have been a lie, a hypocrisy, but He performed His love. He demonstrated it towards us. There is no greater love than what He has for you, BB, or for any and all of us whom He calls His beloved. Forget about man and seek the face of your Savior. Excellent idea to go through the Scripture's love verses/His love talk. Many, many times I have felt far from God with honestly no hope (or little anyway) of really finding help for my condition in the Word of God but lo and behold I did! The Lord says, My Word works, and it does. It truly, truly does. Its alive, as is He. He loves you and He is drawing you and He is perfectly capable and willing to show Himself to you, who He is in truth. There are a lot of voices today, much confusion. That's the design of it, to confuse us, which is why the Word of God is so important to us. I've asked the Lord, Where is the church? Where are Your people? Where are You found? Where have You ever been (looking back over the age of the church)? He said, I Am in the hearts of My people and they are everywhere, over the face of the earth. It's true, the wheat are amongst the tares and vice versa. Only God can sort it all out and He will. Anyway, trust in the Lord and He can help you with that. He is here for us and He knows full well who we are and how we're made, with all of our weaknesses. He said that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us! He knows what we are as far as our humanity. He's greater than all our sin, than all of our sin, than all of man's sin condition No worries. And He does not condemn us, not at all. Romans 8:1 is perfectly clear. Only outside of Christ is there condemnation. Anyway (again), there's a lot of us out here (I believe) who are looking for and wanting the felt love of God that should be found in the fellowship of the saints. It should be found in the healthy functioing of the Body of Christ but that's not what we're seeing today, but I am of the firm belief that our Lord is coming to fix all of this by His Spirit. This is His body of which He is the Head. He will right what is wrong and so His body will reflect the Head in truth, full of life, full of love, full of the character of the Living God Himself. That's what I'm hearing Him to say and I must believe Him. There is a time when the Bridegroom comes for His bride and she will be virgin pure. He is gathering her even now to cleanse and to purify her. He cleanses us with the washing of His Word. That's really what you're experiencing right now. It's not God pulling away from you but Him moving toward you past all of the weeds and gunk that is this world's condition right now, past all that is in you that is a barrier to you knowing Him in full. This is the love, grace and mercy of our God. He will clear up the water for you. Just keep after Him. He is Faithful and True.

Anonymous said...

It's pretty clear that without the gospel (Word of God) you cannot be saved. This is why no person who stays in Catholicism or orthodoxy is saved. They reject the bible in favor of man made traditions. It's the Pharisee scenario all over again. Please remember everyone that when you hear the accusations of "well that's your personal interpretation" coming from a Catholic, it's nothing more than the last resorts of an apologist who has nothing to stand on. This saying is literally what a papal apologist and shill says. There must be a playbook or something. It's like they read from a script. Anyways, God bless all of you who put your trust in Christ Jesus and him alone.......James.....2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Anonymous said...

BB. It would be awesome if you did an article on Internet Catholic apologists. Anyone who has read the posts on a few YouTube Catholic channels will pick up their tactics fast. Lol.....James

Gayle said...

**this was the first part to my post that for some reason didnt post so, this is before "continued" sorry!**:)** Now, all here. I find myself in a kind of strange place at this moment. I don't usually post comments in places and I may not actually post this one, but this strand of conversation pulls me in. This world as a whole is at a critical juncture. If we believe the Word of God, there's a time, according to It, that the Lord, the Most High and Holy God will come to the earth in really a way that He hadn't ever been before, where His righteous rule will be fully in and upon the earth. Jesus told us before He left that the marker of the end of the age would be a great deception. It's clear we're there. I've been a born-again Christian for about 27 years now. I was not raised in any kind of church really, just attending now and then, but when I found the Lord I found the Lord. This has been proven by the fact and truth that He has kept me as His throughout the many years of me coming into the truth of who He is. This time having been spent both in and out of church (buildings). I have questioned. I have pondered many things even down to - How do I really know that You are really real, God? That You are really who You say You are, or that they tell me You say You are? What if I get to the end of this life and find You weren't who or what You said You were?! The Lord has assured me of one thing in my questioning - well, many things but one most important thing - He can handle my questions. He is a great God and fully capable of answeing my "hard" questions, and so He has. I no longer question His reality or truth. I am coming to know Him, to really know Him. Through all of this church thing, I am coming to know the Living God. He is the Living God. No question about it, the church today that calls itself His church does not reflect the life of the Living God. We are told in Scripture that a time would come when there'd be a massive divorcing of man from their Creator, from the Living God, from the Truth that is God Himself. This divorce crosses all religious boundaries, to include what is known as Christianity. But how do we know what is what? Or What is What or Who is Who? The Word of God. It is only by the Word of God that we can know, that we can know, the truth of God. Jesus was the Word of God become flesh. He is the Word and He gave us the Word, His Word by giving us His life. I'm saying all of this to say, know Jesus, know God. No Jesus, no God. He's been really driving this home to me these last few days as I look at and am confronted with the overall condition of this planet, to again include the church: This is the truth - He is the answer. Jesus is the answer. He is the answer to every and all things.

William Sculley said...

Do not pray for me to leave the home that I have found in the Orthodox Church. Praying for someone to leave when they have found a home where they are loved and valued is about as Christian as ridiculing someone for not believing like you do, because you are ridiculing someone for not believing like you do. If it weren't for the Orthodox Church, I would have left Christianity behind altogether and probably be an atheist today. Christianity is meant to be a solid foundation. Leaving the system altogether is the opposite of what the Apostles did. They established a system, which can be easily seen in books like First and Second Timothy, James, and Acts. There was a semi-centralized organization to the Church, where individual parishes had limited autonomy, but were governed by the Bishop who was over the entire city.

I don't need your prayer to "save" me from the Orthodox Church. You may as well pray for the sun to turn into a brick. God is the One Who led me here. Instead of assuming that Orthodoxy is the same as Roman Catholicism, try looking at it for what it is. To be frank, westerners have more in common with Rome than Easterners do, because the only commonalities are external.

I have seen the true light, I have found the heavenly Spirit, I have found the true Faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, who has saved me.

If you want to know what we Orthodox believe, ask me. Don't talk about me in the third person when I'm in the conversation.

William Sculley said...

Re: It is possible for ANYONE to be saved if they confess Christ to be God, whatever church they are in. Unless you happen to be God, you lack the ability to judge a person's salvation based solely on the Church they attend and participate in. For the record, the Orthodox Church declares the Scripture to be the "Crown of Tradition", the "center of the Church", a "love letter from God".

James, it IS your personal interpretation, it is not the clear writing of Scripture that Scripture is necessary to salvation, because 90% of the Church in the first 15 centuries was incapable of reading. On top of that, most people lived hundreds of miles from the smallest scrap of Scripture.

According to you, James, hundreds of thousands of people who were tortured, raped, and killed because they confessed Christ are damned to hell. According to you, Christ asks you at the judgment if you had Scripture. You add Scripture to the requirements for salvation. Orthodox Christians do NOT disparage Scripture. Any time you say that, you tell a lie.

Do use all a favor, don't tell people what we teach unless you have completed a catechism course in my Church.

Notice also that one of your passages from Scripture, the one which asks how shall they hear "Without a preacher", it doesn't mention anything written. Did you not know that none of the gospels were written down at that time? So, since nobody who heard the gospel prior to its writing 25 years after Christ had the written Scripture, I guess they weren't really saved either. Timothy wasn't saved because he didn't have anything except the letters written to him and the Church of Ephesus when he was martyred. Clement wasn't saved even though Paul called him holy because he didn't have anything except the letter to the Romans when he was martyred.

The moment you say that a group of people isn't saved, you assume the position of God and declare your personal judgment to be equal to the Scripture. So, is your opinion equal to God's declaration? or is it possible for a person to be saved even though they don't play along with your personal interpretation of Scripture?

Anonymous said...

In a post that did not appear in the thread which was before my second one that began as "Nahum 1:7 back for a brief addition to what I wrote a short time ago..." because I entered 'here' using the verse Nahum 1:7, I'll use this to identify beyond "anonymous." Anyway, I noticed it was was missing when I came back to correct what I wrote re: to living in Appalachia (something you had remarked on, BB:-) - I said we didn't - but my husband said actually we are in a portion of it. Churches are full of Freemasons & other problems make finding one impossible & we have truly tried.

Because of how it is a great blessing that the Lord Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit pray for us, the Scriptures I included for encouragement are these:
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I won't bother re-typing the rest of what I was sharing - no need, really.

~ Blessed be the Name of the Lord ~

Anonymous said...

BB. I'd like to add that orthodoxy is no different than Catholicism. The "Coptic" branch literally takes a page out of Romes playbook and claims that Mark is their first pope instead of Peter like Rome claims. Besides their popes everything else is identical. It's all works based in nature. I'll quote Pope Shenouda III from his book "the heresy of salvation in a moment". (The title of the book gives him away) “salvation is not attained through good works, but is not attained without them.”. This is clearly works based salvation. Now let's compare it to Paul from the book of Romans who said "but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him (Jesus) who justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for rightousness". There is no "personal interpretation" here, this verse can only mean one thing, and that is works has nothing to do with salvation, only faith. Orthodoxys "pope" teaches contrary to the bible. He died in 2012 and is now burning in hell. His punishment as a worker of iniquity is greater than others for leading people to hell.......James

Grammy G said...

It can get very depressing and cause great division when we keep our eyes on anything or anyone other than the Lord. Much talk about things of this world brings anyone down. But, even God's people are divided, such that denominationalism is ones identity, instead of Christianity. The Enemy loves this division, but it no doubt grieves God. Today is Independence Day for the United States of America. We are anything but "united" and the division weakens us as a nation, just as denominationalism and man-made doctrines have weakened the church. If one studies The Word of God, we wouldn't be looking to anything of this world to bring satisfaction or to be the model for living.

I weep at the condition of the church and how we look to a lost and hurting world. Christ IS our only Hope and yet we have tried to fashion Him into a designer God that works for our worldly lusts. That is one of the reasons the US is in the condition it is in. We have diluted Christianity so much because we can't agree on the Gospel. We add to and take away from His Word. We want to control people through our man-made doctrines. We have made Church into a business plan where only dollars and cents are counted and not the number of souls. Hollywood is the leading maker of pornography exported to the world. Why is it that we even consider watching anything made there? Of course it will have hidden messages all designed to deaden our conscience. We are to be in the world, not of the world. Of course the world will have an effect on us in some way, but to what degree is up to us. We CAN have joy and be IN the world, but only of we keep our eyes on Christ and stay in the Word. Sadly, many have followed another Christ because they are not in The Word. Can't tell a counterfeit if you don't know the real thing! We need to stop being negative and pointing out all the errors of others and start sharing the love of Christ to the lost. Sadly, "Christians" are some of the most negative and depressed people I know, because they are listening to the news, watching TV, going to movies, addicted to technology, denominationalism and baptizing people into their church, etc. Repent! Turn back to the Gospel. Love your neighbor and pray for your enemies. We are suppose to be the salt and light, yet many bring darkness wherever they go. Whatever we fill our cup with, that shall we drink. IF we are focused on the True Gospel, we wouldn't find ourselves in a place of darkness, such as many now know. We wouldn't be divided and unable to fulfill the purposes God has for His Church. If I want to buy food, I dont go to a hardware store, yet many people are "selling" another gospel and we are "buying". Why? Because we are not in relationship (takes 2) with God, praying, reading the Word and seeking Him. CHRIST, THE HOPE of Glory!

William Sculley said...

James, you just proved that you don't understand Orthodoxy. The accusation of "works-based salvation" is proof of a lack of knowledge about Orthodoxy. The accusation that the use of a term that has drastically different meanings in the east than it does in the west is evidence of the sameness is proof that you don't truly understand Orthodoxy.

James says, very plainly, "we are justified by our works, and not by faith alone". This is not saying that we are forgiven because of our works, but that, because salvation is the relationship with God, and not simply forgiveness, we cannot have it without works. If I said that I had a relationship with Malia Obama, would I really have a relationship with her? I have never seen her in person. I've never gone on a date with her. I've never given her a present. I've never met her parents. Do I have a relationship with Malia Obama? Of course not!

But the western Protestant world wants you to believe that you can have a relationship with Christ without spending time with Him, without obeying His commands, and without doing anything but "saying" you have a relationship. Just "confess" Him to be God and you're saved.

Grammy G is very correct in saying that if we are focused on the gospel, we wouldn't be in a place of darkness. We wouldn't be saying "these people aren't saved" because we would be too busy praying for our own relationship with Christ to improve, loving our neighbors, and helping even the people who hate us. We would be too busy preaching the gospel, following what Christ said when He said what we must do to obtain eternal life, to preach the hate of Rome or Protestants or Orthodox.

There cannot be a contradiction between James and Paul and Christ. Christ says we must love God and neighbor to be saved and says in Matthew 25 what we are judged according to: feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, shelter to the homeless, and visiting the sick and imprisoned. If you do these things, you go to heaven. If you refuse to do these things, you go to the pit of everlasting fire. That is completely the opposite of Sola Fide. So either Christ isn't telling us about the judgment, and neither is Paul in Romans 2, or your understanding of Romans is limited because you have a presupposition that salvation is, well, to be frank, easy.

James, Christ, and even Paul all say we are judged "according to our deeds". We cannot just "believe" something and it be true. We must have a relationship with God as He is, not as we want Him to be. Honestly, I would PREFER your doctrine over Orthodoxy. It's so much easier. Who doesn't want a relationship that requires nothing from them?

Debra said...

Hebrews 11:1 King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Why would I look at what the world is doing when I can SEE what God is doing. He is mighty to save! I am not saying no discernment or testing here because we need to be alert of the ways the lion hunts and attacks it's prey. Faith gives us the ability to have eagle's wings, to fly above this world and see the hand of God in full measure. I think if we were hanging around all the galaxies, being in awe of His creation, sitting at the feet of Jesus marveling at His wisdom, filling our souls with joy because faith knows no bounds, our hearts would be in a much different place than this wicked and evil world. Just heard a good teaching on the beatitudes. He said that if people are cursing or persecuting us we will be blessed. So those whose intentions are to harm us for evil (such as the narcissists of this world) are thinking just that, to aim for our annihilation. But God says we will be blessed each time they curse or try to destroy us. This changes our hearts from being angry at their malicious behavior into being vindicated by God with blessings. I consider my salvation the greatest blessing and second being able to share the Gospel of salvation to the lost. There is no greater gift.

Anonymous said...

BB, you are in a spiritually dangerous place in your life right now. I love you and I am praying for you.

Anonymous said...

Dear one, I think I know what your trying to say. I Know a bit about being an abused child, then you get born again and you become an abused child. Me, by the ex-Catholic lady who led me to the Lord. She got angry with me and yelled at me in church saying, "I'm so mad at you!" Then later I learned she claimed she caught me in a lie, and she hates liars. I never found out what the lie was about. But as a new born babe-she broke my heart, I wept for days. I was accused of being prideful and to do a study on humility. I was accused of getting into pastors faces (I do point out error-plagiarism by the pastor! by e-mail), ect. What does God say about it? "Whoso therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in My Name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend (hurt) one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:4-6 Jesus at first tells us to humble ourselves and become little children. John calls church members "little children" "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that anti-Christ shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no double have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction form the Holy ONE, and ye know all things." 1 John 2:18-20 Worry not. We follow Christ. He loves you. Once we are born again we are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already! John 3:18 Blessings!

William Sculley said...

Debra, I love the imagery you used with the "Faith gives us the ability to have eagle's wings". I grew up going to Cedar Hills Baptist Christian School, in Jacksonville, and while I disagree with how they do things (I don't even know their doctrine any more because I really don't remember the things I learned before 6th grade as regards Christianity, probably to my own detriment, since it means I might miss some of my own base preconceptions), one of the passages we were required to learn, the number for which I no longer know, but it's in Isaiah, was the motto verse:

"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strenght. They shall mount up on wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary! They shall walk and not faint!"

Thanks for reminding me of that verse.

Anonymous said...

BB. Orthodoxy does indeed teach man is saved by grace just as Catholicism does. The problem is what does grace mean and how is it applied. Orthodoxy like Rome teaches that grace comes via sacraments. Orthodoxy teaches baptismal regeneration. In the bible grace is the unmerited favor of God that comes by faith ALONE. They have to change biblical definitions in an attempt to fool. It's obviously works salvation. Also, a believer isn't judged by their works on wether they will go to heaven or hell. The only judgement they will see mentions the word "render". We have rewards in heaven and our works will determine what those are. Jesus said us believer WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION but IS passed from death unto life. This WILL NOT and IS happens the moment someone puts their trust on the Lord. The title of the "Coptic popes" book denies the very Word of Jesus Christ. For William Scully or his Orthodoxy Pope to be right the bible would have to be wrong. We both know that's not the case. James

Anonymous said...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Anonymous said...

William Sculley - Is your Orthodox Church the same as the Greek Orthodox Church?

Debra said...

William, Isaiah 40:31 King James Version (KJV) (Powerful verse) Waiting creates peace.

31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Isn't it amazing how the Lord says wait meaning don't expend your energy on striving, worrying, wondering, frustrated and anxious. He is saying when you wait you will be able to fly, run and walk without getting exhausted. I believe the meaning given is spiritual and mental. What happens when we strive or worry, we get exhausted and stressed from trying to figure everything out. There is strength in waiting upon the Lord. The world would say the opposite, run don't wait, power walk and don't stop, sputter off the ground with wings you don't even have because you have not learned to wait. Why is it so hard to wait upon the Lord? The key is upon the Lord. We don't want to wait because that means we have to trust God in His sovereignty and faithfulness, but we can't have it both ways...trusting in our flesh and trusting in the Lord. Waiting is fruit produced from trusting in Him.

Exodus 32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

Saul did not wait for Samuel to come to do the offering, he lost the crown. I Samuel 13:11-12 11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; 12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

Debra said...

Grammy G I agree minds are being taken over and polluted by the controllers of this world who want to degrade our thoughts, our ways, our convictions. We don't watch TV, haven't gone to movies in 28 years. When the Lord says to be Holy as He is Holy I don't want my mind to get corrupted by the blasphemies given on a 40 foot screen. I desire the Lord more than that, to be filled with His Holy Spirit, desiring my mind to be kept pure out of love for Him. We are always the odd ones out, but I don't care because I'm not here to be popular or fit in. I already belong to God's kingdom, why would I want to belong to an earthly one that is decaying and full of filth. That said, Jude tells us to be careful pulling people out of the fire lest you get pulled in yourself. If I get that close to helping which I have, I only listen to what God's Holy Spirit tells me, how much of a reach I need to do. He knows whether the individual(s) are open to the Gospel and whether they may have a change of heart. Salt and light is crucial for the world to see who Jesus is. Our light may offend many because it reaches into the darkest parts of hearts and exposes them. Those who are being led by God's Holy Spirit to know truth will see our light as a gift to them. It's the light of His Holy Spirit that works among men.

Anonymous said...

--"There cannot be a contradiction between James and Paul and Christ." --Wm. Sculley.

Contradiction isn't the word I would choose to use but there definitely can be different emphasis. The fact is they were speaking/writing to entirely different audiences living under different "mindsets" > the "circumcision" (UNDER LAW) & the "uncircumcision/heathen" (NOT UNDER LAW).

--Christ > to the House of Israel, STILL UNDER THE LAW:

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." --Matthew 15:24-KJV.

--James > to the Jewish believers STILL LIVING UNDER LAW:

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad..." --James 1:1-KJV.

--Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who were NEVER UNDER the LAW:

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office..." --Romans 11:13.

Paul describes the "rightly dividing" of the "audiences" in Galatians ch. 2:7,8,9, which took place "fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem" (vs.1):

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."

And it was James himself who stood in the council in Acts 15 & announced that the Gentiles were not to be burdened with the Law: .


Anonymous said...


The 12 apostles pretty much stayed close to home in Jerusalem & took care of the Jewish believers there, & were still "preaching" very "Jewish" things throughout their lives. That's the "contradictions" people think they are seeing, but they are not acknowledging the different "missions" & "audiences" assigned to Paul & "Company" vs. Peter, James, John, et al.

"And Saul was consenting unto his [Stephen's] death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." --Acts 8:1.

Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Mark, etc., were the ones who went abroad to the Gentiles/heathens/uncircumcision.

Peter may have gone to Antioch & "partied" with the heathen ;) -- & maybe the others sometimes did, too. But i've never seen any "missionary tour maps" of Peter, James, John, etc., in the back of any Bibles.

Yes, Peter was sent to Cornelius/Gentile (Acts 10), not far away/Joppa. But that was after Paul was saved & it was not Peter's "full-time assignment" from the Lord.

And yes, Paul was the "chosen vessel" to preach to Gentiles, kings, & "the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15), which he did in earnest (all the synagogues), UNTIL... near the end of Acts, at his last meeting w/the "chief of the Jews" who, when they wouldn't agree to the Gospel in unison, Paul proclaimed to them: "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it." (Acts 28:28):

The "Jewish burdening" of the message dwindled all throughout Paul's ministry, little by little, & the "Liberty in Christ" message increased.

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?" --Colossians 2:20,21,22.

The greatest thing to appreciate is that we are & never were part of the "House of Israel," nor were we ever a member of the "twelve tribes." Why take on their burdens when we've been set free from them?

William Sculley said...


The Eastern Orthodox Church includes the Greek, Russian, Antiochian, along with the Orthodox Church in America and another 40 autocephalous (meaning they are self-governing) churches. There isn't any single leader in the Church, as all of the bishops are equal to each other in authority. We aren't currently in Communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church due to what has been figured out to really be a semantic issue that was blown out of proportion because, well, we have humans in this church. We will never be in Communion with Rome in my lifetime because you would have to either convince Rome to give up the Pope, the Filioque, penal substitution, Purgatory, and a ton of others; or you would have to convince the thousands of churches to accept them. And since many of the voices of Orthodoxy still refer to Rome as "that heretical church", you're as likely to see us join Rome as you are to see BB become Catholic.

William Sculley said...

You're missing something. I never said that there is a contradiction between James, Paul and Christ. I said that the interpretation of Paul saying that we can have salvation without works is a contradiction of James. It was such an obvious contradiction to Sola Fide that Martin Luther, who was one of the first pioneers of the Protestant doctrine, declared the book of James to be "an epistle of straw".

Orthodoxy has always taught synergism salvation, because the Orthodox Christian does not see salvation the same as it is seen in the west. In the west, because of the Roman doctrine of Penal Substitution, salvation became all about the following popular Baptist Question: "If you died to do, do you know if you will go to heaven?"

Salvation in the west, for the most part, is about going to heaven. In the East, salvation is about having a relationship with God. If going to heaven was all I wanted, then you would be perfectly correct in saying I can't work my way to heaven. But when a person does good works, remember that it isn't him, but Christ in him. He allows himself to become the hands of Christ, the feet of Christ.

The band Casting Crowns asks this question:

We aren't saved because of the works. We are saved because every time we show the love of Christ to those who are the victim of the deceiver, we become more like Christ because nothing can touch the love of Christ without transformation.

My hands are not my own. My feet aren't either. My body doesn't belong to me. It belongs to Christ, ulcers and all. I don't have any right to decide who I love because when I was the enemy of Christ, He climbed on a cross to experience death.

Because He rose from the dead, He defeated death. He didn't just forgive us. God forgave us in the beginning, before we ever did anything. But salvation is so much more. Salvation is what God promised: "He Who began a good work in me will be faithful to bring it to completion". I am not yet finished on this earth. Christ has not finished His work in my life, so my salvation is not yet complete. I must continue to "work out my salvation in fear and trembling."

Faith and works are not opposed. They are married to each other. Like the song "Love and Marriage" says: "You can't have one without the other".

You can't have truly good works without having true faith, and you can't have true Faith without good works.

William Sculley said...

Oh, and Thomas served in India. The Church of Thomas in India is the oldest continuously meeting Christian group, founded originally by the Apostle.

William Sculley said...

As to the nature of the works, they are identified by Christ in the gospels, with Matthew giving the most granular in chapter 25, in the judgment of the Sheep and the Goats. These are not works of the law, but of love and of faith. Knowing that our actions have a role in salvation does not take away from the fact that we're still saved by Grace, because the gap between us and the perfection of Christ is STILL infinite, no matter how many works we do. God is the One Who closes the gap, because infinity minus finite amount of works still equals infinity. But God closes the gap with those who would join with Him.

Anonymous said...

There is only one gospel. This one gospel was preached to both "Jew and Greek". Of coarse the Jews living while Christ was on earth was under the law, Hebrews says a testament only starts after the death of the testator (Jesus). Jesus after he was risin told them to go to all the world and preach the gospel. He told this to all the apostles. Your teaching false doctrine. In the beginning some apostles were not following the instructions of Christ, living and staying in Jerusalem was more convenient for them. It's clearly not what Jesus told them to do.......James

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature

Anonymous said...

James 2 never once speaks of works salvation. Read the first verse of James 2 and you will see he is already speaking to people with faith and therefore saved. James is just telling them something that Paul speaks about and that is being a doer of the things you are hearing and not just a listener. He is encouraging them to do good works like any good pastor would do. Faith is made perfect (complete) when it's accompanied by works. It never says these works save. The scriptures often speak of people doing good works, it's a part of being obedient to God. It doesn't ONCE say these works will save you. To Think Paul teaches something different than James is in fact admitting that you believe there is more than one gospel. Orthodoxy and Catholics try and twist James 2 as a last ditch effort to avoid the clear teachings of the bible. When you have 500 verses that tell you salvation is by faith alone, then 1 verse that's twisted to mean it by both works and faith, it goes without saying that one verse is being misinterpreted. James 2 talks about not being a respector of persons, be a doer and not a listener only, and man judges you according to your works so be a good ambassador for Christ. When you claim to be a Christian and you're not helping the poor people you're stepping over, who is your faith benefitting other than yourself? Orthodoxy and Catholicism ignore the 500 verses that teach salvation by grace through faith alone in favor of only one verse they have to take out of context. This is clear proof both are controlled by Satan. EVERY single religion save biblical Christianity teaches works based salvation. Catholic/orthodoxy, Islam, Buddism, Hinduiam, Etc etc all teach salvation is by works. I guess according to all of them they will all go to heaven. This is called ecumenism, it's how the papacy now teaches a Muslim is saved by their works and their "conscience" even while rejecting Jesus Christ. I've heard papal apologists twist James 2 so many times I literally feel like vomiting when I hear them do it. Don't glance over the first verse that says they have faith, and therefore saved. James was writing this book to saved believers, read the beginning of chapter 1......James

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Anonymous said...

I guess that thief on the tree beside Jesus, our LORD and Savior, didn't go to Paradise then as our Master stated in His Gospels, for that lowly thief didn't have much "works" to show for his earthly life.

I believe I will trust in Jesus as LORD and Savior of my life, and the works of the law won't really count that much, because Jesus came and still lives inside of every born again believers, thus fulfilling the "works" of the law. Jesus did state that His burdens were light and His yoke was easy. To hurl all of these "works" salvation philosophies upon believers makes Jesus' words null and void.

And just to note that most people who call themselves Christians, love to boast and brag of the wonderful "works" that they do, so they can be seen by men and bask in the praise of men. And the Name of Jesus is no where to be found in their conversations for the works that they do, they do in their own name and not to glorify our King Jesus.

But there are few who actually do give Jesus, the Christ, all of the praise, honor, and glory for the works done in His Name. Those workers are few.

Bible Believer said...

thanks everyone for your responses here.

I agree anon, with your post about separation and the outer trappings.thanks regarding the fairy article.

I understand getting worn down, in this world, we are surrounded of course those seeking after too much purity can be legalists, but so much surrounds us that people don't even look to the deeper meaning of it's scary.
I know being immersed in Babylon is not easy.

Agree about your simple theology Debra.

Bible Believer said...

I apologize in advance if I am guessing wrong at who posted this:

"Anonymous said...

BB, you are in a spiritually dangerous place in your life right now. I love you and I am praying for you."

I hope this isn't the spiritual abuser posting this. She once told me we weren't real friends. I am tired of being told danger, danger, danger, that is one who always ruled by fear. She never loved me. What a joke.

I have a message for you, since I saw your website the other day, LEAVE the new victim ALONE that you made reference to!!!!!!!!! Stop preying on people. Get help!

Debra said...

Very good deliverance article. These type of ministers are control freaks who are no better than every npd out there. Sounds like this person used the sweet-mean cycle to get what she wanted which was her supply. I've encountered this proud bunch as well. But it is beyond pride, they are evil. There is a huge difference between those who wish to pray for another believer out of love for the brethren and those who wish to destroy another person by making them vulnerable to their npd abuse. I'm glad BB the Lord pulled you out of harms way.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 5:45. Amen! That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The works of the believer is the "treasures in heaven" that Jesus tells us to heap up instead of earthly treasures. Works has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Paul in Romans says "to him THAT WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for rightousness". In James 2 it speaks of Rahab the harlot. She was a harlot while still believing on the Lord. She wasn't practicing "obedient faith" that papists use to rename their works salvation. Being a harlot isn't being obedient since scripture speaks strongly against fornication of any kind, but yet she was still saved by her trust and faith on the Lord......James

teshuvahmusic said...

BB, another vote in favor of the fairy post. Please leave it up. It is spot on. There's so much I wanted to say to add to that topic (about the connection between "faerie"/the occult and the emerging church/RCC...the connection is animism) but I hate to clog up your thread here.

Maybe you could do a follow-up post to "The Orthodox Church: Another Branch of the Harlot." Then James and William can duke it out on that comment thread :-) :-) and leave this one free for us to discuss spiritual abuse.

I debated whether to share what I'm about to say. I'm not sharing it to be "ooh me I'm so spiritual, God talks to me" (that's one of the deceptions Abba brought me out of). But I think it's relevant because it ties in with (one of) my own experiences with spiritual abuse. The Holy Spirit told me by name who your abuser was, when you posted last year that you had broken off the relationship. It was like an instant download as I was reading your post. This was a big deal to me because I used to follow that same person's "discernment" website several years ago, but something always felt "off" about it. Your comment here about the new victim confirmed for me that I did hear from Him! I visited the website, and saw exactly what you are talking about.

It's very rare that I get an "instant download" or "audible voice" kind of revelation from the Holy Spirit. I stopped believing in that stuff after some previous spiritual abuse I went through. But a few years ago, before coming out of the organized church, I took a job with a college campus ministry. I went to the local church (my home denomination) to meet the new pastor, since our ministry and his congregation would be working side by side. As I reached out to shake his hand, the Holy Spirit literally shouted in my ear, "EVIL!!!" I can't describe what that's like if you haven't experienced it. It's not audible in the same way a human voice is, but it will stop you in your tracks. (At that time I wasn't mature enough to recognize it or know what to do about it.)

The pastor showed his colors in a matter of two months. He was a major abuser whose objective was total control. He brought a spirit of accusation, dissension, and mistrust that destroyed the relationship our student team had with the board overseeing them. The team finally resigned as a group and none of us ever darkened the door of that church again. The other team members ended up in a very liberal denomination for a while because that was the only place where they felt "loved" after being chewed up and spit out by these people.

Looking back and putting the pieces together, I am at least 50% convinced this pastor and his wife (also a pastor) were sent on assignment and may have been witches. It seems more likely to me because the town where this occurred -- the college campus in particular -- is a hub for witches and witchcraft.

This was not my only experience with spiritual abuse, but it was a significant one. I was just beginning to learn about spiritual abuse at the time.

Anonymous said...

Amen Bible Believer! Alleluia and Amen.

Spiritual abusers seek to have followers after themselves, same as those evil men mentioned in the New Testament. They create an environment of insecurity, fear, doubt, and most of all hatred, because if they can destroy you, then you will seek counsel from them, instead of God's Word.

I, too, had a spiritual abuser as a "friend," but discovered that behind the scenes, she was set on destroying me. These spiritual abusers speak "down" to you as if you are not saved, born again by the Spirit of God, and they tell you exactly how to live your life, even though their own household is a dysfunctional disaster. Scripture states, "and ye shall know them by their fruits."

Also, I have discovered these pseudo Christian experts are nothing but meddling busy bodies going from house to house, seeking to destroy others' faith in Jesus, the Christ, alone for salvation, seeking to destroy marriages and friendships, and seeking to destroy reputations in their communities. At times, I look at these meddling busy bodies (both men and women here) and see that perhaps down deep, they hate themselves, so they desire to take those who are a threat, down with them. But they cleverly disguise themselves as "joyful, all knowing, confident, and righteous."

These types of chrisitan(?) personalities are fake and deluded, and know not the Jesus of our Bibles, but another jesus of their own makings. They take people into captivity and force them into bondage, for they themselves are in bondage to the enemy.

I am glad that you addressed that comment Bible Believer, for I believe it was intended to insult and punish you from a self righteous perspective. You are still pointing people to Jesus as our LORD and Savior and this is the true work of God, the Holy Spirit, working in your life.

Please keep pointing out the wolves in sheep's clothing on your blog for many of here, have been blessed by your work. And many of us are praying for you, for it is only Jesus that restores our souls and makes us righteous in his sight.

May God the Father, be with you and protect you, Bible Believer, for His love is like no other.

Debra said...

BB, you commented that the deeper meaning of purity is scary. I understand legalism as in a self righteous Pharisee who pretends to be Godly but denies the power thereof. These are those who are the whitewashed tombs Jesus was talking about, cleaning the outside but leaving the inside unclean. Traditions of man in some cultures would mean to walk on your knees until you bleed to make yourself holy. Other cultures wash in rivers where dead bodies are to cleanse themselves of sin. I think of purity as in the word Holy. Be Holy as I am Holy not because we are beating our bodies into submission but because having the mind of Christ we desire nothing evil in this world.
Matthew 23:27King James Version (KJV)
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Titus 2:12 - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Romans 13:14 - But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof]
1 Timothy 4:12 - Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
Matthew 5:8 - Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Bible Believer said...

Debra thanks regarding the deliverance ministry article. Yes they are just like the npds, I believe this one is a sociopath and could even be conintelpro or a Satanist. It really made me sick inside she is seeking after other victims. Yes she used the sweet and mean cycle. I know part of my spiritual troubles are SO many betrayals but hers is chief among them. She never got money out of me so maybe the psycho supply was enough. I had dreams about her a long time. She is a big part of my present spiritual crisis and trouble. It's like she laid poisonous seeds. I believe she is evil beyond belief, that may have been the intention, and I think someone trained her in brainwashing and mind control methods.

Yes good works out of faith are different then good works to gain salvation James.

teshuvahmusic, I will leave up the fairy post, enough have read it, it's out there anyhow, I wonder why the atheist set and rest don't even think about why magic and little beings are so important. Even the so called rational thinkers don't question why little magical beings became so important. Hmm do you want to do a short guest post explain that about animist, I'll put it up....

LOL about another Orthodox post.

Bible Believer said...

Can you email me [see profile] and tell me the name you got? Then I will see if it matches. Two other commenters came forward on that thread and commented under that post saying it sounds like someone they dealt with. It does sound like you were told right who it was. I hope the new victim is rescued and doesn't see the message to reconnect.

I believe you about the pastor, and being warned. I am having some major spiritual troubles now, so I hope my own discernment isn't at risk, but the Holy Spirit warned me of a Satanist in my midst, this was real life thing, and I went and looked her up on Facebook, and she had drawn pictures of herself with demons and her son who was under another name [you all know I am good at internet research] was a PUBLIC member of OTO, and high magick organizations, some I never had heard of before. His art work was so Satanic, and you all know I have seen everything from goth to what not to deviant art, it blew my mind, I couldn't even bear looking at it. This person worked in a venue, where I could have been put at major risk. The warning was upon my second meeting with them, I also realized they are faking a disability but that is a very long story.

Its horrible the pastor was a major abuser. Many of those types given so much power destroy souls. I am glad you were warned about him. There are lots of wolves in sheep's clothing. I think one problem I could be facing, I don't mind writing it here, is I found out too much, too soon, and it has been overwhelming for me. I can't even post about some of the weirdness I've had in my life because some would consider me insane.

I can see why some ran for a liberal denomination. I believe this happens more then people think after theological beat-downs and rule-followings, some easy going place like maybe the United Methodists or Presbyterian USA sounds like a pool of calm water, but then even there it's just more Rick Warren brainwashathons. One thing I have noticed and I am in a lot of churches for secular community events and my own need of charity, the churches are merging even closer, where the United Methodists are having programs like the Lutherans.

I would say Satanists, one weird quirk my spiritual abuser had was calling everyone evil witches. I told her the Wiccans don't care. She had a very strange view, and tried to tell witches were different from Satanists. I dabbled in witchcraft and don't even think she understood Wiccan basics, and paganism. He definitely could have been assigned to the place. Don't forget the freemasons and other owned types too. Some high magick witches like the OTO guy could be invading churches too, so even that is a possibility, I am sure you don't take the witch definition like the other person did to the same place. She called everyone a witch, who disagreed with her.


Bible Believer said...

Spiritual abuse does affect people. There is no way I could take these troubles to a secular counselor, they'd never believe it. I have been having some serious spiritual turmoil.

My relationship with God has become very very troubled from the outcomes of this spiritual abuse and doubts have arose. I have found myself wondering about all these evils, and been horrified, but then I come back to the point scripture warned us. I want to ask for some serious prayer. They taught me a God of "hatred". I have to go study scripture. One thing I have noticed is most of the non-believing world or people who left "Christianity" have faced some severe spiritual abuse. The control freaks, dictators and others have created a lot of havoc. I am having to re-examine my own view of God thus the spiritual turmoils.

There is an authoritarian, evil streak in what is called "Christianity" that has grown beyond belief. The church of the antichrist is here today.

Sorry you went through the "friend" trying to spiritually destroy you. I think that was this one's goal too. They all act like experts and like they are know-it alls. It was a repeat of NPD and sociopath abuse too. They are never wrong, they are supposedly your authority, and more. I agree many do destroy marriages, friendships and reputations especially if you live local among them. They will do smear campaigns and concern trolling and play like they are "holy Christian women" I don't trust anyone who comes across as all-knowing, and if they never express one vulnerability watch out though the more cunning ones will feign some vulnerabilities or mirror abuse histories to trick you.

I think they are in bondage too. One thing I have noticed about them is how rigid they are and focused on perfection. Thanks for your support, I could "feel" it being HER, I don't care if she comes and read this. I think it is more of the self righteous stuff too. She acted like she was judge and jury on my very soul.

Bible Believer said...

The purity movement definitely is white-washed tombs, no doubt of it. It is also self righteousness and show off time. They focus more on sex but in a different way then the secular world.

31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

Debra said...

We have to realize that most main stream Christianity have been under the influence of masonic or Luciferian pastors. They have become addicted to going to church even though we are the body of Christ without stepping foot in a building. Then they go and never even blink an eye to all the hand signs and horn pointing that goes around them. There is no discernment and yes BB if you were to bring this up to those who attend or even a counselor they would say you are judging others or being critical. The watchmen are shouting danger but the sheep are just sitting there grazing, being fed spells and false teaching. Do we give up and get exasperated, NO! God has given us a Nehemiah spirit and we do not have to give up because there is so much rubbish. The Lord is building up His true bride and being on the Potter's wheel we find His gentle hand molding us into His likeness. The Lord teaches us how to pray in times like this, where we see the sheep being devoured. Some may not even be sheep and are wolves in the midst, I am sure of this! God is love and we cannot doubt that. He has a Father's love that sent His Son (God in the flesh) to die for us. That is love. When we depend on human love to see God's love, well many have their love grown cold. Should we expect it from Christians? Of course, but as you, I am astonished by those who proclaim to be believers and yet their love is as cold as an ice cube. But really how do we not know they are plants of the enemy trying to destroy Christian testimony. We will know them by their fruit.

Anonymous said...

BB - I am praying for you...thanks for the good conversation on has really helped to clear my head a bit.

When I read your comment about having dreams about your spiritual abuser, I wondered if she is using astral projection on you. I have seen more and more on that lately, from New Age sources, it seems strange to me and I can't get my head around it, but that doesn't mean it isn't real. I have a Facebook friend who posted some stuff on it one day several months back, they surely thought it was real, and a great thing, and seemed to be involved in it herself. I had some things go on in my own life that were very strange about a year ago, lots of scary sleep problems, I learned a little bit about that and started to pray for safety against it, as I wondered if someone was targeting me. It got alot better after that. So that's my advice to you, if the dreams persist, ask Jesus for help and he will give it, that could be the issue.

Grammy G said...

Philippians 4: 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your HEARTS and MINDS through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, Brethren, whatsoever things are TRUE, whatsoever things are HONEST, whatsoever things are JUST, whatsoever things are PURE, whatsoever things are LOVELY, whatsoever things are of GOOD REPORT: if there be any VIRTUE, and if there be any PRAISE, think on THESE THINGS. (Emphasis mine)

BB-I know you have been hurt by imperfect people in an imperfect world in an imperfect church! I have been too and I think many of your followers have been as well. But, we have to make sure our hearts aren't growing bitter by focusing on the past. The Enemy loves for us to stay in the past, for he knows his future has been sealed and his fate is the Lake of Fire.

We are not to cause division in the Church. It is a sin! When we are harmed, we are to handle it Biblically by going to that person. We are not in charge of their response, but we are in charge of our response and obedience to God.

When we are hurt, angry and lack forgiveness, we are in bondage and our focus and language becomes a walking billboard for the Enemy, instead of Christ.

Take some time for yourself! Ask God to help heal your heart and to forgive those who hurt you. He will take care of them, lest they repent! See yourself as God sees you and don't entertain negative, self-destructive thinking. Use this Scripture to keep your heart and mind focused on the Lord and refrain from negative being around or conversing with negative people.

Take time to praise God for ALL He has done in your life and for bringing you through so much! He loves you BB and he loves all those whom He created. Some may turn away from Him, but He is patient.

When people tear others down, we are failing to see them as God sees them. Our goal should not be to tear others down or shine a light on their sin. That's God's job, though we each are to pray for discernment and allow the Spirit to warn us, each individually. That keeps us in The Word and praying.

The Bible warns us the times we see ourselves in would come
Indeed it has. But it shouldn't be.our lingo, our on-going dialogue! God's Word should be our message in all situations as it is the only thing that will set the captives free. As I said, whatever you fill your cup with, that shall you drink.

I see alot of division on this blog as each of us makes our opinions known. But the real issue is, what impression would an unsaved person have toward Christianity should he or she run across this blog? DOES IT GLORIFY GOD?

Anonymous said...

BB. I'd like to point out that the vaticans and orthodoxys apologetics are geared solely against "Protestantism". We as believers take our authority from the scriptures. The fact is Luther taught the exact same thing as Rome. Luther in his large catechism claims that there is no salvation without baptism or partaking in the Lords super. He claims these aren't works so he can still claim he believes "sola fide". Martin Luther is in hell along with the many papal and orthodox "popes". William claimed "all bishops are the same in orthodoxy", if this was the case, then why does the Coptic church have "popes"? He also claimed that Luther was one of the first to believe that salvation was by grace through faith without knowing the scriptures. We know for a fact that the OT is thousands of years older than Luther, and that Abraham was saved by his faith alone. People like Mr Sculley can't make any points outside of the false Protestant/Rome divide and conquer script. I think we can all agree that Abraham lived thousands of years before Martin Luther..........James ........Genesis 15:6 And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness

Anonymous said...

BB. For people who doubt that salvation by faith alone wasn't known before Luther should take into account that most of the books of Isaiah was found in "Qumran". While I don't need this to validate the gospel, some might. Isaiah 55 clearly teaches that salvation is free and does not require works. We know these hand written copies are around 2000 years old. That's 1500 years before Martin Luther. Jesus told the Pharisess many times "Ye err not knowing the scriptures", the same can be said to people who pretend to be religious nowadays...........James

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

teshuvahmusic said...

BB, for some reason I can't open your email thru your profile page. If you don't mind, you can email me at the address listed on the "Contact" page of my blog (linked in my profile url). I would love to send you what I have on the faerie connection and see if you can use it in some way.

I try to be careful about calling people witches b/c in the past I have gone too far in being paranoid, seeing "a demon under every rock," so to speak. But after some other experiences my husband and I had in that town, nothing would surprise me. It is a quaint rural town with a touristy flair, and you don't suspect the dark underbelly until you have lived there a while.

I can relate, a little bit, to feeling people will think you're insane if you share it all. I'm sure your experiences have been more extreme and varied than mine, as you have gone a bit farther in life than I have (age-wise and experience-wise).

All the turmoil makes it so much more poignant and reassuring at those times when He does speak to us. It is worth it all to have that amazing assurance that YES, I am one of His sheep. "My sheep hear My voice; I know them, and they follow Me." Most of the time that "hearing" is more indirect (being led in different ways to research and understand various deceptions and come out step by step...never knowing what step is next). The times when He communicates something clearly, and then I see it confirmed by what plays out (like knowing that pastor was evil, even though I didn't know enough to get out of the situation before it became toxic) are SO worth it. That is one of the few things that have helped me keep going thru my own doubts along the way.

I don't hold the "once saved always saved" doctrine, but I'm learning He will go to any lengths to keep His sheep. He is so much more loyal than we are. And He knows us before we know Him or how to please Him. He had His hand on me, calling me out, directing my steps, long before I had a clue. He loved me and let me toddle along until I was ready for the next step. He is so merciful, but the Hebrew word is chesed, usually translated "mercy" or "compassion" or "lovingkindness" but it really means "covenant love" or loyalty. Not giving up. He gave me a vision/picture of how the Holy Spirit works on us. It was a mother kneeling down to wipe her child's face with a wet washcloth, the way you have to do when they have a mess all over face and front. Like dried baby food or mud. The mother had a serious face, not smiling, but there was no anger -- just utter concentration on the wiping/cleaning up process. She was not going to give up until all the crud was gone. (It was a mother, but also kind of genderless, if that makes sense -- so, no divine feminine stuff here.)

teshuvahmusic said...

P.S. BB, you may enjoy knowing that I linked to a couple of your posts back when I was blogging regularly (or trying to).

I also copied your practice of posting a note that said "Links are not endorsements." :-)

I will pray for you, as YHWH helps me remember to do so.

teshuvahmusic said...

Grammy G, there is a difference between a brother or sister and a narcissist/wolf. There is a reason Jesus called them sons of the devil who do what their father does. He (satan) comes to devour and does not know how to tell the truth ("lying is his native tongue"). Part of maturing in discernment is learning to recognize the sons of the devil for what they are so we don't continue to endanger ourselves by trying to "reconcile" or have fellowship with them.

Handling it "Biblically" works with someone who is willing to repent. A narcissist does not understand repentance. They only understand how to get what they want, and they will tell you what they think you want to hear, because it gets them what they want (you still being around). But they will not stop the destructive behavior.

If you go to a narcissist privately, they will twist the facts to make you think YOU are crazy for telling them to stop. If you take a brother with you, they will try to turn that person against you. The only solution is to "tell it to the assembly," which is what BB is basically doing. She and her abuser are not part of the same local body, but they have been part of the same online community for several years at least.

Many believers stay in bondage because they think they have to forgive a narcissist seventy times seven and never separate themselves. But the Biblical principle is "no forgiveness without repentance!" Here is an excellent study on it from Luke 17:3 Ministries.

William Sculley said...

Re:Anonymous from July 8, 2017 at 5:45 AM

The thief on the cross had a work. There isn't a quota to the work of faith. Assuming that since there is work in faith then you need a quota of works is a non sequitur.

The problem with the quota theory is that the quota would be equal to infinity. No matter how many, or how few works, you do, there is no way to reach infinite works, and you will still have an infinite amount of works you need to do.

God looks upon us and judges us based on whether our works were genuinely from faith, not whether we have a certain number of works.

The moment you abandon the idea that synergism requires a quota is the moment you realize that it is about a relationship, not earning forgiveness, but building a relationship. We don't do works because we desire heaven. We do good works because we know that these works are the foundation of a real relationship with Christ, because by doing the work of Christ, we become the people of Christ and Christ works through us.

William Sculley said...

James, there weren't chapters and verses in the original letter of James. And I never said we are saved by works. As I said in my response to Anon, you have to abandon the idea that salvation is simply forgiveness from sins, and realize that we see salvation as the relationship with Christ and becoming progressively more like Christ in Theosis.

But James asks this question:

"Can faith save him?"

The pronoun "him" is referring to the person who has only faith. This question is explicitly clear in both English and Greek, using the Greek root Soteria, which is explicitly used for our salvation.

The answer James gives is equally clear:

"we are justified by our works, and not by faith alone"

It isn't justification before men, because soteria is not effected by our position before men. Saying that it is justification before men is making the answer completely illogical. It doesn't follow. So the justification has to be before God.

Anonymous said...

Bible Believer said...

Yes it is under the Luciferian pastors Debra. Its all about the system, well the system is perverted. Yes no one asks why they are waving the hands around pointing like crazy. Trump's hands wave so much into different various forms, I lose track. Hey the IFB pastor told me I was jaded from calling out the most stuff, so yes, they will tell you that you are crazy or wrong. Hey anyone of you see that nauseating photo of Trump being prayed over by the prosperity gospel and other false preachers? I guess they have to get out the prayer cloths and show off praying on street corners--hmm isnt that in the bible they pretend to read, to get more to go hooray for the new health bill that will lead many Americans early to the grave. Yes the ACA has problems but leaving people with no options is wrong. The republic of gilead and narcissists associated. Yes the watchmen have been shouting or suppressed into silence, and the sheep are all excited. Honestly I am sickened by the display. Babylon is here today.Agree about not giving up. I am seeking after God's love, I can't be with the "god" of the evangelical world who is now the antichrist.

Yes I agree about those with love grow cold. I believe people are growing cold in general it's frightening. Yes many expected it from Christians, I guess we have to protect ourselves and not fall into that trap, if we are in the last days, the "Christians" will be some of our most hardcore enemies.Like the Inquisition, the "church-goers" rounded the real believers up. A lot of the famous preachers are plants, but there is plenty of smaller "plants".

Bible Believer said...

The dreams about the spiritual abuser, were warning dreams. I would "see" her as a liar in the dreams, and in the dreams she would be displayed as evil to me despite the outer goodness shown me. I "knew" for a time she was evil until I could get away and knew it meeting her in person, I was floored at that moment. I could see it in the eyes.

I do not think she instigated the dreams. I sometimes have gotten warning dreams and do believe God can send dreams to people to warn. I have had dreams where I have had to cast out demons and strong spiritual warfare. I know I should let some of this stuff even set aside my doubts. I was warned in a dream once of a wicked person coming to my door even and it happened the next day, this was someone else years ago.

I do believe she used techniques on me. Not sure of anything supernatural, maybe she tried astral projection but it probably wouldn't work, I don't want any of that garbage around me. The power of suggestion could have worked on me with the constant unending talk of demons but she was doing things more from the natural psychological angle. Oh if someone goes on and on about the demons, just cut them off, I warn about evil here, and believe demons are real but when you see these people who give the demons all the power, notice and attention, just run for the hills.

I don't put anything past these people, the manipulation techniques were extreme, probably a lot of NLP, and others, she seemed "trained", if that makes sense. There was a period of time,where I knew I had to get out and away but I was "studying her" too, to make something of it, I guess before I was able to break free. The depth she went was kind of immense. Oh one time she wrote and showed me letters she said an abuser had written her. She went as far to set up a false website, for this person from what I could tell for his company and place he worked. One talent I have is to denote patterns in writing, especially if I am writing someone a lot,and she sent me these letters saying an abusive person in her life had mailed them to her, and I knew they were HER who wrote them. So there was just a lot of real funny business.This was for mirroring, so I would have empathy for what she had been put through and would let down my guard. Mirroring is something sociopaths do. If you have an abuse history, medical problems, or other attributes, they will mirror, and copy, they will seek to "be like you"in whatever way they can.

She used a lot of fear. That's one thing I think about now how fear is used so much in false religion. A lot of control techniques, telling me that someone in her family was bearing my curses and telling me if I rebelled against her, they would quit and then I would die, this was during the time I knew she was full of it. Ive read a ton of conspiracy websites, and I guess she missed her true calling as a mind control handler. The mirroring techniques etc, were never ending. By the way another one who mirrored and was a sociopath, came from me in a non-religious venue unrelated to this blog, studying the techniques of the evil was freeing for me. People in the pews are kept dumb and eating cotton candy, everyone will love you, just forgive everyone, they can't even imagine.

I don't dream of her anymore. I did have to pray before to be freed of bad dreams, this was someone else but I was freed of them.

Bible Believer said...

What would the unsaved think Grammy?I talk to a lot of them, some of them seem to have more functioning consciences then the ones in the churches. They know Trump is a sociopath, they don't want more war. There's a bit of love of justice left and conscience.

Maybe if an unsaved person saw this blog, they could think you know, maybe being a Christian has more to it, then all the garbage I have been shown. The evangelical etc, world has become a joke.

I know I am facing some major spiritual troubles, but I feel I am being shown something from it, I know this may sound odd, I can't even explain YET.

I told my husband, beauty, truth compassion and love has to come first. Not suppression, repression, control, authoritarianism and a "god" in the evangelical world that is just about "beat downs" so that verse does mean something to me.

Brethren, whatsoever things are TRUE, whatsoever things are HONEST, whatsoever things are JUST, whatsoever things are PURE, whatsoever things are LOVELY, whatsoever things are of GOOD REPORT: if there be any VIRTUE, and if there be any PRAISE, think on THESE THINGS. (Emphasis mine)

I am not dealing with the past,but the recent present. You seem to think there is some world for me to be free of wicked sociopaths and others. I don't live in the church bubble or the Christian bubble land. I don't buy into "move on" philosophies that tell people to shut down discernment. I will cause division, because some who say they are in the church aren't. I have far more tolerance for a unsaved person with some conscience left then a proclaiming brainwashed false pew "christian" who loves evil and reviles in the system and defends oppression.I am not saying this is you, but I don't need the slap a smile on your face lectures right now. I already was told to repress all emotions, thoughts, feelings and beliefs by a long enough cadre of abusers and those seeking to control.

Biblically going to seared sociopaths and narcissists, is now how it works. If I ever get time I will write how scripture warns of them. I will not forgive the seared except the forgiveness of "separation",my job is to flee and not seek revenge and warn others if I am able.

The whole negative vs. positive thing is something this world uses to oppress, you probably are just repeating these concepts as they are so ingrained in this culture, I believe that stuff is used to cover up truth.

There's a lot of sociopaths out there who use the "be positive"thing as they do their dirty deeds in darkness. Keeping the serfs smiling and ignoring the reality is what they want.

Some do deserve to have the truth told about them, it is not a tearing down but a reality.

God if anything will be setting me free from these people but we need to be able to see them for what they are in the first place.

Life is getting better as I am learning what kind of people to avoid but this world is not a candyland. Spiritually, a lot ofpeople are shamed and told why don't you feel good, why aren't you positive. Don't use God's name to tell people not to talk about what they have seen, experienced and felt.

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall NOT want... said...

@ Joop,

I am in a similar situation. But I have purposed to read the WORD of God to unlearn the lies that were taught from the pulpits of the different churches I too attended (John 17:17).

I find comfort in the fact that it is Jesus who is building HIS church (Matthew 16:18). And we know that it is NOT a building made by human hands (2 Corinthians 5:1).

As believers, our love for Jesus Christ is reflected in keeping HIS commandments (John 14:15) and NOT in subscribing to a specific denomination.

Bible Believer said...

Hi Teshuvah, yes look for an email either tommorrow or the next day, I want to write you soon. I am interested in what you have to say about the fairies, lol that was not a well received article. Yes we have to be careful of seeing a demon under every rock, some are just influenced by the culture.

There can be weird stuff going on in small towns, if you know anything about the way the masonic system works and more. My old small town, this local politician, had himself photographed some time ago in his apron bowing before a masonic altar, that sure explained a lot to me about that place. It's more then the freemasons but other good ole boy networks and other doings.

Yes I have not had what is a usual life, at least now it is more calm [well for now] and I am getting old so maybe now I will have more peace as long as we are able to keep the bills paid, and even with that I figure I can only do what I can do and let God handle the rest.

Yes sometimes our troubles can show us things. Even the trouble with the spiritual abuser, was interesting in that it has revealed a lot to me of the techniques of spiritual abusers, and manipulators, seeing it done on a small scale can translate to the big scale. As I have said, some of my mind is being changed about different things. It is better when someone is learning and growing and using this knowledge. I am not sure what God is showing me now, but there seem to be some major facets coming up. Some may say with the questions about hell, etc I have lost the plot, but everyone should examine their beliefs and why they hold them.

I agree something is being communicated. Obviously there are adjustments to my view of God that need challenged, and I am facing this now. I lost sight of God's love, though I always believed, some of this is based in the personal, but it is something to be paid attention to. Yes I have been warned of wicked people and pastors and had things confirmed. God showed me some personal things.

I tried to avoid OSAS arguments, its used too often for false conversions and easy believism, but what Father wouldn't fight for His children.I'm having my arguments but have the faith things will turn out. I can't love the "god" of the evangelical world but hey I have a whole blog, about how they are following the antichrist, so what does that say....I need to find God's true nature. I want to feel the love of God not the judgment and condemnation, life is too full of here on earth.

God in this world is protrayed as cruel. His love especially is being de-emphasized in too many places. I need more time and focused mind, but I wanted to write more on mercy, and how that has been thrown out by the antichrist church, and this world we are now in, where it's all punishment, control and conformity. Some have told me to go join a liberal church where God's LOVE is emphasized but then what about truth, that would never work. Yes there's endless verses about God's covenant love, or loyalty. I prayed "Show me YOUR LOVE" and maybe I am getting a longer drawn out "answer" or time in seeing it. I do not want to be one of those unloving Christians I wrote about years ago. [See Mean Christian articles]

That is a good metaphor with the mother cleaning a child's face with a wash cloth. "Let me clean this off you". That gives me a lot to think about.

Thanks for your prayers, I am glad you like "my links are not endorsements" phrasing and could use it.

Bible Believer said...

Teshuvah, thanks for talking more to Grammy, hope I wasn't too harsh, I want to be firm that there is too much pandering to the wicked and the churches actually oppress the victims of the wicked by telling church members to forgive, make nice, be positive. Some mean well, but this is bad advice that gives the narcissists and sociopaths more power in this world. The sons of the devil can continue unhindered and they often are status seekers and have false good appearances, while their victims are low status and have had their reputations destroyed by them.

My life is improving as I have freed myself from many wicked people. I am still cleaning the decks. I am at the point where I see a definite light at the end of the tunnel. It is hard to explain how I was so surrounded, but I was. [it has to do with the connected family] I am learning myself to discern the sons and daughters of the devil far better and freeing myself from the yoke of the seared.

People with consciences and willing to repent are a whole different ballgame then those waxed cold. Narcissists will go to all lengths to get what they want, false crumbs, presents, fake niceness, and then if the false nice masks won't do it, they turn to rage, anger and other techniques of control. The most masterful ones can turn a whole room against their chosen target. Yes I did not know this person in a local body but via online.

Lives are destroyed when people remain yoked to the evil, how do I explain they take you down with them. Doing false forgiveness with people like this is basically opening yourself up for the wolves to rend you.

Thanks for posting the Luke 17:3 article. It is a good one.

Anonymous said...

BB. The words of Mr Scully are starting to get ridiculous. First off who bases their whole dogma and belief system on a question while ignoring the hundreds of other verses that state the obvious. Scripture says " in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established". He can only quote ONE verse that's obviously twisted while ignoring the hundreds of others. Also he could NOT name one "deed" the thief on the cross done after he "confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus". And believed on him for salvation. To say there "is no quota" without even naming one deed is a cop out. He can't name one deed because, the bible doesn't list one. This man is one of those who have had their conscience seared with a hot iron. He's incapable of believing the true gospel. 99% of all internet papal apologists have debated with so many people who shared with them the gospel and showed them the error in their thinking, but yet they have rejected it every time in favor of institutionalised doctrine invented by reprobates. I love the average everyday Catholic, in fact they are very receptive of the true gospel. My mothers side of the family use to be Catholics, but not anymore. All one has to do is show the errors of papal Catholicism (same as orthodoxy) through scripture to a person who is not seared and the seed is planted, they might not believe immediately, but they will start to compare scripture to what they're seeing during "mass". I'd like to sum up James 2 by quoting what the whole chapter is truly about, and that is "I will show you my faith by my works". James was teaching the same as Paul, and that is to be a doer of the Word you are hearing, and not just a listener. If someone just listened then no one would hear the gospel. Good works in front of a non believer (unseared) shows them the love that Jesus talked about.......James

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Anonymous said...

I'd like the readers to see how James 2 gives Abraham as an example of "showing his faith by his works" and not that works save as others here are trying to imply. Abram (Abraham) called on the name of the Lord in Genesis 13, and was thus saved by his faith. He offered Isaac in Genesis 22, literally decades separate the two events, so we see he was saved by faith well before he offered Isaac........James......

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Genesis 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD

Genesis 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

Anonymous said...

In James 2 it gives Rahab the harlot as an example of showing her faith by her works. We see in Joshua 2 that Rahab was saved by her faith before her works with the spies. Again, works have nothing to do with salvation, James was giving an example of being a doer and not just a listener....Joshua 2:10 (Rahab speaking)For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

12 Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the Lord, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token:

13 And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death.

14 And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the Lord hath given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with thee.

15 Then she let them down by a cord through the window: for her house was upon the town wall, and she dwelt upon the wall.

16 And she said unto them, Get you to the mountain, lest the pursuers meet you; and hide yourselves there three days, until the pursuers be returned: and afterward may ye go your way.

17 And the men said unto her, We will be blameless of this thine oath which thou hast made us swear.

Anonymous said...

BB. I'd like to end the discussion of James 2 by quoting the end of James 1 that leads into the second chapter that proves what I'm saying is true. James actually says the exact same thing I explained. Notice he mentioned nothing about salvation, being a doer and not just a hearer brings blessings from God according to James....James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Anonymous said...

BB. I didn't mean to turn the thread into a bible study, but I felt that every attempt to prove works salvation should be refuted by scripture. God Bless.......James

Linda said...

Frances Ridley Havergal, 1870

O Saviour, precious Saviour,
Whom yet unseen we love
O Name of might and favor
All other names above.


We worship thee, we bless thee
To thee, O Christ, we sing
We praise thee and confess thee
Our holy Lord and King. Amen.

O bringer of salvation
Who wondrously hath wrought
Thyself the revelation
Of love beyond our thought.

In thee all fullness dwelleth
All grace and power divine
The glory that excelleth
O Son of God is thine.

O grant the consummation
Of this our song above
In endless adoration
And everlasting love.

Then shall we praise and bless thee
Where perfect praises ring
And evermore confess thee
Our Saviour and our King.


The ACTS:10:3-4 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Throughout this chapter Cornelius alms to the poor as well as his prayers are mentioned as a reason why he was one of the first Gentiles to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If you can't give to the poor, praying for missionaries and all who help the poor to have enough to give esp of food and Bibles pray for them as much as you can, that they would have the Holy Spirit and to be strong with the terrible things they see in so many war-torn nations. The Great Commission is still in play so if you can't give, pray as much as you can for the workers of God and to the poor. Part of the whole armor of God spoken of by Paul includes “praying with all prayer and supplication for the saints.”

There is no contradiction between works and faith. Remember Lazarus leaning on Abraham's bosom, the rich man gave nothing though he and his brothers had the word of Moses and the Prophets to help the poor and vulnerable.

Verse 6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith.
Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, "In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing," i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God.

Linda said...

On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian.
Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Pray for Children of the Night, an American charity that tries to help escaped or thrown away children who have been forced to be prostitutes to help them rebuild their lives.

Acts:11:9 What God has cleansed, call not common.

The last verse in the Gospel of St. John about the things Jesus did so many the earth could not contain them, was possibly making clean what had been unclean including the Gentiles and maybe art, I hope since I am an artist, and for centuries the main subject of art was the Life, Death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

a one man show Shakespearean actor who had memorized all of

people in audience surprised by the abrupt ending of both the play and Gospel of Mark

which starts out the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

All things are clean unto you if you give thanks for God's good gifts.

Give alms of such things as you have, and all things are clean unto you. Jesus

You are clean through the Word I have spoken to you. Gospel of St. John

The washing of the Word. St. Paul

The word “Easter” is used in the KJV in the Book of Acts of the Apostles
Appollos who worked with St. Paul and I thing there was a Dionysys did not have to change their names. New wineskins for New Wine.

The NWO is NOT afraid of religion.

They control ALL religious systems. ALL OF THEM!!

And they have since history was first recorded.


He alone is worthy of worship.

He alone is creator of all things.

And He alone, by the infinite power of his shed blood, is capable of TOTALLY WIPING OUT the power of the enemy.

Everything you see and hear on this planet that is not in line with YAHWEH's word is a simulation... a prop...a game to keep you far away from Jesus Christ.

The power of the Illuminati is DELEGATED POWER given to its members by the "hosts of heaven", those inter-dimensional beings (fallen angels, old ones, celestial beings, elder gods, demi-gods, etc, etc) that the Illuminati serve via ritual and obedience.

So why are they afraid?

Jesus said:

All power is given unto Me
In heaven and on earth.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,
and over all the power of the enemy:
and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luke 10:19

Linda said...

The power HE gives is unlimited.

The power they have is delegated.
The power of the Illuminati is wielded by Magik.
Magik is a TECHNOLOGY, not a religion.

And the ONLY thing that will destroy their Magik Technology
is the power of The Lord Jesus Christ working through a believer.

Everything else is a decoy.
Michael Relfe

But all that fear can be erased as easily as saying
“Yes Lord, I believe you,
I trust you,
and ask for forgiveness of all my sins.
Please, stand at the Helm and guide me safely home”
Throughout the Bible we also see the oil for the lamps which brings the Light of God's illumination.
Poetically the Word and Light of God is there as "a lamp unto our feet" to help guide us along the pathway when darkness comes.


Linda said...

Book of Revelations and Life after Life witnesses

The Light at the End of the Tunnel is real - source of uncreated light.

From years and years of three-times-a-day prayer, I know a thing or two.

As I lift people up in prayer so that their needs can be seen by heaven, I consistently see that the soul is forever a blazing light in each person.

No matter what has occurred in one’s life, no matter how great the woundings, no matter how horrified they have been, no matter what they have been subjected to-- the great light of the soul can never be extinguished.

This is your strength. It has always been your strength. Rely on it now.

Jesus said that John the Baptist was a burning light and you rejoiced for a while in his light.

And to work while it is day for the night cometh when no man can work.

Bible Believer has been a light esp in her kindness to people who comment who she disagrees with.

A great spiritual warfare hymn in the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal

Don't shut things off before exploring them fully, the good things God has given in art and hymns for centuries. The BEGINNING of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Son of God – the first verse of St. Mark's Gospel.

Martin Luther, translation Frederick Henry Hedge 1852

A mighty fortress is our God
A bulwark never failing
Our helper he amid the flood

Linda said...

Of mortal ills prevailing

For still our ancient foe
Doth seek to work us woe
His craft and power are great
And, armed with cruel hate
On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide
Our striving would be losing
Were not the right man on our side
The Man of God's own choosing

Dost ask who that might be
Christ Jesus it is He
Lord Sabaoth His Name
From age to age the same
And He must win the battle.

And tho' this world, with devils filled
Should threaten to undo us
We will not fear, for God hath willed
His truth to triumph through us:

The prince of darkness grim
We tremble not for him
His rage we can endure
For lo! his doom is sure
One little Word shall fell him

That Word above all earthly powers
No thanks to them abideth
The Spirit and the gifts are ours
Through Him who with us sideth.

Let goods and kindred to
This mortal life also
The body they may kill
God's truth abideth still
His Kingdom is for ever.

Charles Wesley, 1747
Redemption Hymns

Love Divine, all loves excelling
Joy of heaven to earth come down
Fix in us thy humble dwelling
All thy faithful mercies crown.

Jesus, thou art all compassion
Pure unbounded love thou art
Visit us with thy salvation
Enter every trembling heart.

Breathe, O breathe thy loving Spirit
Into every troubled breast
Let us all in thee inherit
Let us find that second rest:

Anonymous said...

Linda. Cornelius believed on the Lord. How can you fear someone whom you don't believe in first? It was his faith that came first before his baptism. You're teaching works salvation which isn't compatible with the scriptures. Also Philip would not baptize the Ethiopian eunuch until he "believeth with all thine heart thou mayest"......James ......Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway

Anonymous said...

Linda. When you quoted "if faith justifies without works, let us work nothing", I'm not sure what "apostle" you're quoting. I googled the "verse" you gave and nothing came up. Also, to assume Jesus "made clean" art would be an assuming idea orthodoxy would love to meditate on.....James

Grammy G said...

BB-I am so sorry you took my words to mean we just roll over and let evil encompass our being. To be passive and ignore the realities of the existence of evil. That was never my intentions, but I see you were not the only one who read it that way.

We must recognize evil for what it is, but my point was that we must choose to either dwell on the evil, or on the promises found in God's Word. We can spend our time pointing out the errors of the lost, or we can spend time ministering to the lost. Noone is beyond being saved from their sin and it is the Word of God through the Spirit, that shall save them. Just as you were abused by IFB church, we can do the same thing to others by broadcasting their errors instead of praying for them as we see them in bondage to sin. We don't bury our heads and ignore the realities of evil! Not what I was saying at all! Christ will take care of wickedness, so it should not be our focus. We should find comfort knowing we can leave the wicked in the hands of a just God who will cut off the wicked, but who will uphold the righteous. We don't have to expend our time and energy shining the spotlight on anyone. IF we are in relationship with Christ, the Spirit will give us each discernment to know if someone is wicked, from whom we must flee and the pray for that lost soul, not condemn it! We are called to pray for our enemies, they need it and if we wont, who will? It won't be their allies who participate in their evil.

PS 37:8 Cease from anger and forsake wrath; fret not they self in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 12 The wicked plotted against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. 13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for He seeth his day is coming.

My message was indended to lovingly point you in the direction of praying for your enemies, knowing God will judge the evil that they do
More importantly to pray that they should believe upon the Lord and repent. We don't have to expose their sin, God will and so too will He judge them. This is not burying your head and ignoring the wickedness that surrounds us. It is trusting God knowing "The Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved forever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Ps. 37:28) HALLELUJAH!

I have a friend who used to glow with the love of the Lord. I loved to go places with her and we would share Christ whenever the Spirit allowed. She has become so consumed with the news, the wickedness that surrounds us that she no longer talks about the Lord, but about people and situations. I love this friend but she doesn't see the change in her message to a lost and hurting world. She used to preach the Gospel and now her message is much different and brings NO hope to an obviously lost and hurting world. I have tried to talk to her about it and she would agree and change momentarily but go right back to the poisonous messages, affecting our Bible Study. Jesus made a whip! But it was to free the innocent and those in bondage to the self-righteous. I had to distance myself from her. But I care deeply about her soul and am in fervent prayer for her. Did she hurt me? Deeply! But I know God's plans are not for her to perish, so I continue in prayer for her. Our relationship changed drastically and you can tell she is cold toward me, but I shall remain in prayer for I know she let her guard down! She wasn't spending time with the Lord but was on the Internet and watching news all the time. She had lost her meekness and humility that God used to draw lost sinners to Himself. WE can get off track and I believe it is only because we have lost our first love and turned our attention toward other things/causes which, may even appear to be good.

Anonymous said...

May God bless you Grammy. I am praying in agreement with you.

William Sculley said...

James, as I said before, just because works are involved does not mean they do the saving. The Scripture says very plainly that to obtain eternal life, we must LOVE. Love is a work. It is not a thought, or a philosophy. Love is an action. It is doing something. You have to love god and neighbor, fully.

Synergism is NOT works salvation. You're beating on a strawman, so you didn't refute anything. You MUST take the verses about faith and actually understand what faith is and is not. It is not just a thought. It isn't a philosophy. Faith is an active DOING of trusting and obeying. That old song I learned as a child says it very well:

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

God's promise to abide with man has always been contingent on our willing cooperation. Sure, we cannot get there alone, but that doesn't mean we can be passive participants. We must participate in our salvation because that is the nature of Salvation.

William Sculley said...

BB, it is to our shame that people in churches do not follow the morality of Christ. It's sad that Gandhi said "I love your Christ, but not your Christians, they are so unlike your christ."

I think this is the result of the idea of a dichotomy between works and Faith. When people are taught that man has no part in his own salvation, they become lazy. Why should they do good works if those works don't really accomplish anything? It's a problem in the west. Now Orthodox Christians can fall into the opposite end and say "oh, it's ok for me to sin, I'll just confess it later." So I'm not saying the people are perfect, but there is no logical defense to explain Sola Fide without either destroying Free Will or the need for good works.

Anonymous said...

William. You quoted James 2 in an attempt to prove that works are somehow related to faith and salvation. Scroll up and reread your first post on the subject. James is encouraging the believers he's talking to, to do good works. To say that faith is always accompanied by works is false also. You're trying to veil your false religion by deceptive means. You also made the insinuation that Paul and James are contradicting each other, this is an attempt to put seeds of doubt in people's minds. Read what Paul said to Elymas for doing the same thing you're doing......James

Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord

Anonymous said...

James, I'm not Orthodox like William and neither am I Protestant or Catholic. But I don't see how anyone can read the bible with an honest heart and not see that it teaches us to repent of our sins and believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. To have faith in him that produces obedience and righteousness! That is faith that works by love. I'm convinced "faith alone" is just another Pharisaical doctrine that blocks people from the kingdom.
- Dai

William Sculley said...

James, did you miss what James said at the beginning of the passage about works and faith? Let's do a refresher:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

So, rewording this, it's fairly simple to see that he is asking if faith can save a person who has no works. This is the thesis of the following passage, where James establishes the goal of the next portion. James wants to talk about the relationship between faith, works, and salvation (soteria in the Greek, which is the root of the verbal word "Sozo").

There is no deception here. It is clear as crystal. This passage is the very reason that Martin Luther sought to discredit the book of James: it directly contradicts the easy believism that is part of the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide.

You can also discard the idea that salvation in the Orthodox model is dependent on works alone. That would only be true if the salvation was dependent on how many works you can do. But in Orthodoxy, it's a question of whether there are works, not how many works you have. We do not preach Pelagianism. We believe that salvation is a relationship, and not simply forgiveness.

If salvation is forgiveness, then there is no need for a person to ever engage in good works. You can say that a saved person would work purely because he loves Christ, but that is true in Orthodoxy, as well. That love for Christ is the substance of faith. And you cannot have love in the absence of its expression. You can't have faith without works because faith is something you express, not something you simply have. You have faith by showing faith, not by simply saying you have faith. I don't have love for my girlfriend simply because I say I do. I have love for her by taking her out to the movies, spending time together walking, cooking, visiting tourist sites, watching the stars, and pretty much any other way I can express that love. And when I express that love, it develops like a muscle, growing stronger as I use it. Faith is the same way. I don't have faith just passively. I express it through prayer, good works, going to the services, receiving the Sacraments, seeking spiritual guidance when I struggle against sin in my life, and many more things. That is what faith is. The beginning of James is to establish what the works of faith are, and James plainly tells us that faith apart from works is dead. What saving can a dead faith accomplish? None whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

Wow. Then I guess that thief on that tree at Calvary went to hell. But we know this is not the case as Jesus said, "Ye shall be with Me in Paradise."

To debate Jesus with any earthly interpretation is a lie from the enemy and we can wishy washy His words until the cows come home. If I am going to err on faith alone for my salvation, I will choose to err on Jesus Words of Life, rather than on the debate I see here.

The definition of "good works" offered up by man pales in comparison to the "good works" offered up by God, the Holy Spirit.

And the "Sacrements" never saved anyone, only the Resurrection of our LORD, Savior, and Master, Jesus, the Christ.

Anonymous said...

It's crazy to see people believe a doctrine that's based on a question. "Can faith save him?" According to Jesus Christ it can. It's called the gospel, the gospel of John says the word "believe" over 84 times which averages out to over 20 times per chapter, it mentions works in the same context ZERO. Paul busts the false doctrine of "works and faith" many times, but Romans 11 makes it 100% clear. Only a seared person would deny it.....James

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

teshuvahmusic said...

I've hesitated to jump into the fray between William and James, but here's a thought to put the discussion into perspective. Faith IS a work. We have this command from the lips of both Moses and Jesus. Deut. 18:15, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." John 6:29, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." The obvious conclusion is that if you believe Jesus is who He says (Messiah/the Sent One), you will listen to Him, and if you listen with ears to hear, you will obey what He says to do!

Faith is an act of the will that moves the feet, not an abstract mental process. Mental assent does not equal salvation. Even the demons "believe" and tremble (James 2?). Robert L. Shank wrote one of the best defenses ever of the meaning of "pistis" (NT Greek word for "believe") as action, not simply accepting a doctrine. His book is called Life In The Son. He started out as a OSAS Baptist minister. When he set out to write a book to prove OSAS from the Greek NT, he ended up changing his mind based on the linguistic evidence. "Pistis" is a type of Greek verb that indicates continuous action: it begins at a point in time and continues indefinitely until something stops it. If it stops, it's DEAD (James 2). If your faith dies, YOU are dead (spiritually). (Just see Hebrews 6.) Faith is an arrow going in one direction.

How does faith continue? Well, you have to keep it up just as you would water a garden. I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT nonsense like rote prayers, going to Mass or Eucharist or any other kind of service, taking "sacraments" (actually worship of idols), giving alms, or helping little old ladies cross the street. I'm talking about an actual DAILY BREAD RELATIONSHIP with the Father. It's right there in John 6: "I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN." Man does not live by bread alone, but by every WORD from the mouth of GOD. Two kinds of word: written (the commandments, established for all time) and spoken (personal revelation given by the Holy Spirit according to our needs). When Jesus said "eat My flesh and drink My blood" in order to have life, He meant no more and no less than (1) keep His commandments and (2) commune with Him through prayer. He is real and when we pray, He is RIGHT THERE.

As for the thief on the cross, he did the "work" of believing on the one GOD sent. (If he'd had more time to live, he would have started following Jesus and listening to/obeying His teachings; otherwise, his faith would have been DOA.) But that work didn't take away his sins. Only the blood of the Lamb of GOD (hanging next to him) could do that. <--<-- This is where it all starts!!

William, I am going to go out on a limb and ask you an invasive (possibly rude) question. I agree with you that we "work out our salvation" (meaning our relationship with Abba) day by day in how we live. But we can have a fondness for Christ, and fancy that we "love" Him and are doing all these things for His sake, when really we are just doing "things." This is true of people in any denomination. You can spend your whole life working to "build" or "grow" your faith, but the faith you have is still dead because YOU are dead, because you have never known HIM. William, are you born again? Do you have assurance of your salvation by the witness of the Holy Spirit to your spirit that you are ALIVE?

I know you came out of serious spiritual abuse in your fundamentalist church and hope my words don't remind you of judgmental diatribes from that part of your past. I am genuinely wondering if your spirit has been made alive. You sound like a very sincere person who wants to follow Christ. You obviously have put a lot of thought into what you believe.

William Sculley said...

So you limit God to working only how you want Him to, and not how He chooses? I never said that the good works save us, James. I said that the works are a requirement given by God. If I tell my nephew that if he cleans the toys up off the floor, then I'll paint his room whatever color he chooses, who is doing the work of painting the room? I am, not him.

In another illustration, if Bill Gates gives you a million dollars in a box, but you just set the box on a shelf and never take the money out and use it, did you benefit from it? Of course not! Salvation is a gift, offered to all men on earth. But we can never benefit from what we don't use. Without salvation, we would be incapable of doing good works. In this way, good works are not saving, because they are the salvation itself. Good works are the Faith that saves because they are the lungs that bring air into that faith.

Sola Fide is the biggest contributor to pew surfing, lazy people who wouldn't lift a finger to help people. You know why you can walk into a Baptist church and keep going for two months and the greeters who are supposed to make people feel welcome don't even know you were coming? Because they don't have anything to worry about. For all their jokes about how "there's a new name written down in pencil," they actually act as if they have nothing to lose. Why should I do good works if my spot in heaven is secure eternally? I have no reason to worry.

Sure, our good works alone pale in comparison to Christ's work. But the good works which save are the result of our allowing God to wear us like a glove, doing His work. They do not save us because we do anything, but because God does the work through us. Nobody ever says that a scalpel saved a man's life. They praise the surgeon. The scalpel is only the tool, and receives none of the glory. We are those scalpels.

William Sculley said...

As to this whole idea of not being Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant, the whole idea is bunk. You aren't something else just because you want to be. A person can't say that they accept the entirety of the five Solas without being Protestant. The Five Solas are the foundational identifier of Protestants. If you hold them to be true, then you are a Protestant. Why should a person be embarrassed about who they are? That's just dumb

teshuvahmusic said...

Dai (Anon 7/19), just curious, what do you identify as? I'm not Orthodox, Protestant, or Catholic either. In fact, I'm not part of any denomination or organized group anymore. I'm kind of close to Messianic, but mainstream Messianic Judaism is really just Protestantism under a new label. Mostly I just try to be Biblical. :-) Agree with your comment BTW.

William Sculley said...

So...James is lying and Christ is right. Guess I should burn the book of James, then...Oh wait...Let me see what Christ said about how to obtain eternal life...

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

So let's see. Seems to me that Christ said that if we are to obtain eternal life, we must DO likewise to what the law says in that commandment. Love God and love neighbor. Further, in the Judgment as portrayed in Matthew 25, the judgment is based on actions, not beliefs. You feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the homeless, etc. Those seem suspiciously to me like works. Then again, Romans 2 says we are judged "according to our works"...

All these works attached to the judgment and to eternal life. It takes a huge set of blinders to miss all that. Either that, or a desire for an easy belief that doesn't challenge. So...Which is it?

William Sculley said...

William, I am going to go out on a limb and ask you an invasive (possibly rude) question. I agree with you that we "work out our salvation" (meaning our relationship with Abba) day by day in how we live. But we can have a fondness for Christ, and fancy that we "love" Him and are doing all these things for His sake, when really we are just doing "things." This is true of people in any denomination. You can spend your whole life working to "build" or "grow" your faith, but the faith you have is still dead because YOU are dead, because you have never known HIM. William, are you born again? Do you have assurance of your salvation by the witness of the Holy Spirit to your spirit that you are ALIVE?

Do I know that I have a relationship with Christ now? Yes I do. Do I know that I will never, of the free will God gave all men, reject Christ? I do not know. Do I know how that effects the future? No.

What I know is that on the other side of the door to the future, my Master and Lord is waiting for me, and beyond that, I need know nothing else. My Jesus waits for me on the other side of that door, and I would go through anything and everything with Him alongside me.

I agree with your reading of what Faith is. That is what I am meaning. It is a reading that marries the words of Christ, James, and Paul regarding eternal life, faith, and works. They are not mutually exclusive. It is a doctrine called Synergism in modern words, but was referred to by the early Church as Theosis (meaning before Rome established the Pope as more than "first among equals" in the 11th century). It sees our sanctification by God in response to our drawing near to God (draw near to God and He will draw near to you) as part of our salvation. It sees that relationship, the living together with God, as the nature of our salvation, not simply a coincidence.

Anonymous said...

To "love God with all thine heart" you would obviously have to believe on him first. Works comes after salvation and has nothing to do with it. You do NOT need good works to receive the free gift (grace) of God, which is eternal life. Since grace is obviously free (Ephesians 2:16), if you have to work for something, then it is no longer a gift, but a reward. Grace is a free gift. Grace is not "sacraments" as the papal church tells its congregants, where you have to partake in these seven sacraments to obtain grace. This is works salvation where they try and falsely define the meaning of grace to fit their satanic doctrine. You do in fact believe in works salvation, and are therefore not saved. You rightly named your false beliefs as "my jesus" because your "jesus" is not the true Lord of the bible. Your god is a wafer that you eat and discard the next day. This is truely satanic doctrine.......James

Anonymous said...

Faith is not works. When Jesus was asked what the works of God consisted of, he replied faith which is different than works. Ephesians 2:16 clearly tells us that faith is not works believers are ordained and commanded to do good works and spread the gospel, but not everyone is obedient. Even if a saved person does zero works they are still saved. Works are what a believer builds up. Jesus called them "treasures in heaven". A true believer works out of love and will be rewarded for them.

Ephesians 2:16 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Heather Noelle said...

Yes, James. The wafer God is quickly discarded.

Matthew 15:17 (KJV)
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

Mark 7:19 (KJV)
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?


William Sculley said...

"You are justified by works, not by faith alone."

James says faith without works is dead. This does not mean you will show works after faith. Body without blood is dead. You cannot have life without blood. The works are the blood that enliven Faith.

Christ said we are judged according to works (Matthew 25). Paul said we are judged according to works (Romans 2). James said we are justified by our works.

You don't demonstrate faith by works. You enliven it by works. You build it up. How does your trust in your romantic partner grow? By just saying you love her, James? I guess you never need to go on a date with your wife or girlfriend to have that relationship, right? You never talk to her. You never bring her a present. You never play board games or whatever hobby you share. Is that a relationship?

Likewise, you do not have any relationship with God without prayer, Scripture reading, and spending time working on the things important to Him, listed in Matthew 25.

Anonymous said...

You made the point yourself. James is speaking about works justifying a person in the the eyes of man, and not in the eyes of God. we know that man is not justified by works in the eyes of God. Your churches interpretation of James is highly flawed and completly contradicts all other scripture. You can't reconcile James 2 with the rest of the bible, you choose to hold on to this flawed theology in the face of overwhelming scriptural evidence that clearly proves you wrong. Like I once stated here, if 200 bible verses state that salvation is by faith alone, and only 1 ( and I do mean only 1) is used by papal apologists to prop up works salvation, then wouldn't common sense say that the 200 clear scriptures are right and that 1 verse is being taken out of context? It's to the point that it's hard to understand how someone can try and make an argument when they have absolutely nothing to stand on. This is apologetics 101. Just deny, rinse, then repeat. The only reason I still comment on this topic is to show others how papal apologists work. I can't calumny how many straw man tactics you tried to use and was called out on. Anyways, I believe you're a person who's conscience has been seared with a hot iron, and to see people like this makes me sad. You are an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ. You go through forum after forum deliberately attempting to undermine the gospel. You're a worker of iniquity........James

Roamsm 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

Anonymous said...

Heather. Amen! Jesus speaking with Peter at the end of John 6 tells us what Jesus was referring to towards the end of that chapter. When Jesus asked the remaInning twelve disciples if they too would go away Peter answered "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the WORDS of eternal life" then they stated that they believed that he truly was the Christ, the Son of the living God. There are plenty in this chapter that proves that john 6 isn't literal when speaking of "eating my body and drinking my blood". In John 1 it tells us that Jesus is the Word made flesh, and it is this context that is applied to John 6. I know that you know this, but I'm only emphasizing it more lol. Take care and God bless..........James

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

manho valentine said...

Heather. Amen! Jesus speaking with Peter at the end of John 6 tells us what Jesus was referring to towards the end of that chapter.

William Sculley said...

So I guess, then, James, that you think James is answering the question "can faith save him?" with "we are justified before man by our works". So, now you believe that we are saved by being justified before man. That makes no logical sense. How is "we are justified BEFORE MEN" have ANYTHING to do with answering the question of how we are SAVED? Last I checked, being a believer in Christ and standing up for Him in the time of the Apostles was a sure fire way to end up finding yourself looking up at an executioner's mask. Looks more to me as if the early Christians were literally incriminating themselves before men. Justification before men has NOTHING to do with what James was talking about, otherwise, He would have actually said so.

As to the "eat my Body and Drink my Blood", if Jesus were being metaphorical, HE would have said so, just as He did with literally every parable He told. Whenever you find a metaphor coming from Christ, He will explain exactly what it means to His Apostles, even if not to the main crowds. But Christ didn't say "I was just speaking metaphorically" ANY of the times He talks about that topic. When John 1 was speaking, He was being literal, saying that God became flesh in the person of Christ Jesus. He didn't say the Word was "like a god" or "like God". He simply says "The Word was with God, AND the Word was God." That doesn't set up ANY metaphor relating to John 6, and neither Christ nor Paul say it was a metaphor in ANY of their discussions of the topic. It isn't until the last 200 years that people said it was a metaphor. Why should I think people who never spoke Koine Greek are right and the people who literally were tortured and died never renouncing this belief, and also were native speakers and readers of the language, were incorrect.

If I said that the deer is dear to me, you would know exactly what I meant, while I know many foreign friends of mine who struggle with homonyms like that. I'm going to pretty much guarantee that you haven't ever used Koine Greek conversationally anywhere near to the level in which the Apostles would have. So don't pretend that you understand the Greek better. The belief in a symbolic Eucharist is only 200 years old. You might base it on the Bible, but I can argue that God created sin and that Jesus was just a man from the Bible. Why should I think you're right and literally millions of people who lost their lives for the love of Christ over two millennia were wrong? Heck, just look at the time before Christianity was made legal. They certainly didn't believe it.

So were the "true believers" just directly disobedient? They just ignored the Great Commission? I find that hard to believe. And since literally every other heresy, including some that are around today in new forms, has its writings preserved, I sincerely doubt the "oh poor me, the evil Romans tried to hide the evidence!" That kind of thinking belongs in conspiracy theories and flat earther theories.

Anonymous said...

I fully understand there's no way you would ever admit you're wrong, doing so would unravel your whole "religious" system. Papal apologists never admit they're wrong, even when they can be proven wrong from a history book or their own sources. Jesus did explain what he meant in John 6. He clearly says "the flesh profiteth nothing" then went on to say "the words I say unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". It's pretty clear to anyone who isn't seared.......James .......John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Anonymous said...

It seems you're either not reading my posts. James gives 2 examples at the end of the chapter. One is Abraham the other is Rahab. Abraham called on the name of the Lord long before he offered Isaac, and Rahab believed on the Lord before her works with the spies. I posted the scriptures already. This will be the last time I mention James 2. Your shill tactics are noted. You act as though it's never been mentioned before. You're trying to turn this into a circle argument. I've touched on all subjects, just scroll up and read my past comments for your future questions. It truly is sad to see this on BBs blog.....James

Anonymous said...

It says more than "in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God". It tells us Jesus is the Word made flesh, and dwelt among us.He is the living Word. Put this in the context of John 6 like it's meant to be........James ....John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Anonymous said...

200 years? Here's a quote from one of your fake "church fathers" Clement of Alexandria. You can't help but telling lies can you?.....James......“But you are not inclined to understand it thus, but perchance more generally. Hear it also in the following way. The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit; for the flesh was created by Him. The blood points out to us the Word, for as rich blood the Word has been infused into life; and the union of both is the Lord, the food of the babes–the Lord who is Spirit and Word. The food- that is, the Lord Jesus–that is, the Word of God, the Spirit made flesh, the heavenly flesh sanctified…” (ibid)

Anonymous said...

Here's a quote from tertullian who died in 225AD. That's quite a long ways away from 200 years ago wouldn't you say?.....“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40

Anonymous said...

The Didache, written in the late-first or early-second century, referred to the elements of the Lord’s table as “spiritual food and drink” (The Didache, 9). The long passage detailing the Lord’s Table in this early Christian document gives no hint of transubstantiation whatsoever.

Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood“(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Cyprian (200–258), who sometimes described the eucharist using very literal language, spoke against any who might use mere water for their celebration of the Lord’s Table. In condemning such practices, he explained that the cup of the Lord is a representation of the blood of Christ: “I marvel much whence this practice has arisen, that in some places, contrary to Evangelical and Apostolic discipline, water is offered in the Cup of the Lord, which alone cannot represent the Blood of Christ” (Epistle 63.7).

Eusebius of Caesarea (263–340) espoused a symbolic view in his Proof of the Gospel:

For with the wine which was indeed the symbol of His blood, He cleanses them that are baptized into His death, and believe on His blood, of their old sins, washing them away and purifying their old garments and vesture, so that they, ransomed by the precious blood of the divine spiritual grapes, and with the wine from this vine, “put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man which is renewed into knowledge in the image of Him that created him.” . . . He gave to His disciples, when He said, “Take, drink; this is my blood that is shed for you for the remission of sins: this do in remembrance of me.” And, “His teeth are white as milk,” show the brightness and purity of the sacramental food. For again, He gave Himself the symbols of His divine dispensation to His disciples, when He bade them make the likeness of His own Body. For since He no more was to take pleasure in bloody sacrifices, or those ordained by Moses in the slaughter of animals of various kinds, and was to give them bread to use as the symbol of His Body, He taught the purity and brightness of such food by saying, “And his teeth are white as milk” (Demonstratia Evangelica, 8.1.76–80).

Athanasius (296–373) similarly contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)

Augustine (354–430), also, clarified that the Lord’s Table was to be understood in spiritual terms: “Understand spiritually what I said; you are not to eat this body which you see; nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify me shall pour forth. . . . Although it is needful that this be visibly celebrated, yet it must be spiritually understood” (Exposition of the Psalms, 99.8).

William Sculley said...

Re: James

I admit that I am wrong about things all the time. Just because I am correct on something does not mean I am inerrant. Your problem is that you have insufficient (read: nonexistent) hard evidence to support the assertion that I ought to accept what you are dishing out. Firstly, the entirety of the first part of Romans establishes CLEARLY the protocol according to which we are judged. "The Lord will render to each man according to his works" is pretty dang clear to me. That is the foundation according to which we ought to understand the rest of Romans. It is the thesis portion of the book. It sets the rules by which the reader ought to understand the text. This understanding of Scripture is the oldest understanding of Scripture by far, since Sola Fide wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Rome changing the definition of sin from "missing the mark" (hamartia, in the Greek, which you will find pretty much anywhere you find sin in the English) to "committing a crime". In other words, your belief wouldn't even exist as an interpretation of Scripture if Rome hadn't split from the rest of the Church.

As to the Spirit/Flesh dichotomy you create, it is NOT saying that physical things have no effect or power. Sex is a physical thing. The Gnostics, like you, claim that the flesh profits nothing is saying that physical actions cannot have a spiritual effect on your life. As a man who fell in the past to the temptation of fornication with a former girlfriend, I can attest to the fact that physical actions can and do have lasting effects on your spiritual life. The Gnostics, however, followed your misinterpretation of John 6 to its logical end: since the flesh does not have effect on the spiritual welfare of a person, then a person can do whatever he so desires with his physical body, so long as he maintains a "pure spirit". Want to have sex with dozens of different women? fleshly actions cannot have effect on your spirit, so go ahead! Want to do drugs and drink alcohol until you're stupid drunk off your rocker and higher than the planets? Go ahead!

Physical actions can, in the correct context, have both positive and negative effect on the Soul. Obedience to the command of God in the Sacraments is positive to the soul, not because of some mystical transformation. I'm not here preaching transsubstantiation. I never said there is a physical change in the particles. I'm saying there is a REAL change. Something does not have to by physical to be real. The Father isn't physical, but He is certainly real. The Spirit isn't physical, but they certainly are real. Claiming that something is spiritual is not saying it isn't a real thing. So all of those quotes about "understanding the Eucharist spiritually" don't detract from the reality. As to those that said it was symbolic, you do know that we don't consider the Saints to be perfect. Orthodox Christians consider Augustine to be a Saint but we reject his brand of soteriology as an overreaction to the teachings of the Pelagian heretics who said we could achieve salvation without God. Both the Pelagians and Augustine conflated forgiveness with salvation, instead of a living, working relationship with a holy and awesome God.

Without the Pelagians and Augustine, and then without Rome, my Church would still be here, but you would never have come around, because nobody would have conflated salvation to mean forgiveness.

William Sculley said...

As to your response about James, even though Abraham called upon the Lord long before the actions described in the letter of James, it wasn't the original calling that James said justified him:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham's faith was incomplete until he offered his son, not before. Incomplete faith could not save Abraham. God called for him to DO something and when he had obeyed, that obedience made his faith complete.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Your explanations run completely contrary to the CONCLUSIONS the Apostle draws in these passages. You're telling me literally the exact opposite chain of events. The Chain of events you give is this:

They believe, then they are saved, then they do the work because of the faith.

The chain of events in James 2 is this:

They believe, then they do work because of the faith, then they are justified.

I don't have to read anything into the text. It's right there!

You say I won't follow your teachings because I've been "seared". Replace the "r" with an "l" I won't believe what you're telling me because it runs contrary to the Spirit and to Christ. I would have to give up everything Christ and the Apostles said about salvation and eternal life to accept it. Things like "he who endures until the end, the same shall be saved" would have to be given up. Matthew 25 would have to be stripped of all its application and instead made into nothing more than an object lesson. I would have to give up all hope of ever having a real relationship with God because such a relationship is impossible.

You act as if accepting that works have a role in salvation means I have to meet some quota of good works or that my relationship with God can be gone in an instant because of some mistake. But that isn't how relationships even work! I cracked under the stress of studying for a new job while my symptoms are flaring up and let it off on my girlfriend this week. Did that have a negative effect on my relationship with her? Of course. But did my relationship with her completely disappear? No! I apologized after I came to my wits and we are still together, planning for our sixth anniversary. That is how salvation works. It isn't dissolved by stupid mistakes. No matter how many times you trip and fall against that brick wall, you aren't going to break it. But there's a door in that wall, too. You can voluntarily, of your own free will, choose to leave the relationship, with the complete knowledge that you are endangering yourself. If you aren't, then there isn't a love relationship between you and God. You cannot love that which you cannot give up.

William Sculley said...

As to putting John 1 in the context of John 6, you're putting the cart before the horse. You put John 6 in the context of John 1, not the other way around. That's how people mess up reading Romans. They disregard Romans 2 because they read it in light of their assumption that "gift of God" means works aren't necessary to our relationship with God. But that means that they make Romans 3 the foundation of Romans 2. But that's nonsensical logic. It is extraordinarily rare that a person would pour the foundation AFTER they erected the frame of a building. Imagine what you would think of your contractor if he did that while building your house? "Oh, we're going to pour the foundation later. We'll put the house up first and then pour the foundation."

If you had any sense in you, you'd fire that contractor.

William Sculley said...

Finally, did you not notice that Clement of Alexandria is both not calling the Eucharist "bread and wine" in your quote, but "body and blood"? He doesn't question the reality that this is the Body and Blood of Christ. He doesn't even attempt to say how they are Body and Blood. He simply says that there is a deeper truth underlying the Eucharist.

As to the fake church fathers claim, unless you can establish that your belief was, in its completeness, preached in all centuries since the Apostles, your only argument is "my interpretation is better than theirs, so they're fake. It's pretty much no different from Trump's "Fake news" campaign slogans. Lacking evidence that they aren't real Christians, you just present your personal views and interpretations of Scripture as evidence. I find it funny, though, that those "false church fathers" have the authority to say what the Canon of Scripture should be and even tell you who wrote the four gospels. It seems you let them tell you what is in the New Testament, but not what it means. That sounds like a double standard to me. If they don't have the authority to interpret Scripture, then they CERTAINLY don't have the authority to compile Scripture. And yet you let Athanasius of Alexandria be the foundation of your canon of the New Testament? How does that make any sense? That's like me having the right to hire and fire employees, but not the authority to tell those employees what to do.

If you really thought they were fake, you'd use a canon they didn't make. Might I suggest the Canon of Marcion? At least then you don't have to deal with the letters of James or the gospel of Matthew, since they prove so troublesome when it comes to your view of salvation.

I mean really, you already rejected the first 1500 years of Christians in their canon of the Old Testament when you accepted the canon of the 5th century Jewish Masoretes that rejected Christ. Why not just go the rest of the way?

Anonymous said...

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Anonymous said...

William. I see you're at the point to where you have to put words in my mouth. I never once said that sin has no repercussions, the book of Hebrews tells us "whoever God loves he chastens". I also never told anyone to sin. I'm not a Gnostic as Gnostics believed that Jesus did not come in the flesh, they also deny his physical resurrection. Your whole idea of sin is unbiblical. Your thoughts are of such as you act like you've never read the bible at all anywhere. The bible tells us what sin is, so your false idea of Rome defining sin for me is ridiculous. They have defined it for you and your cult. Sin is not "missing the mark". It's not necessarily "committing a crime" either as some countries laws are unbiblical, an example would be queer marriage. If a person speaks out against queers it's considered a crime in some countries. Sin is in fact the transgression of the law. This is why the law was given. Scripture calls it a "school master" that we me know sin and that we may know we are sinners in need of a savior. Even people who grew up without the law, the bible says it was written in their hearts. Everyone knows that murder, theft, adultery etc is wrong no matter what culture they grew up in. It's quite obvious we are on two different pages. The bible is my authority and it's where I get doctrine on salvation and the Lord Jesus Christ. You get yours from books written by reprobates who not only deny the bible, they are contrary to it. I've given you many quotes from your "church fathers" who clearly say that John 6 is meant in a spiritual sense, so I guess they're Gnostics too in your eyes. That doesn't make you a very good papist or orthodox by saying such things. You'd probably get kicked out of your church if they knew you thought they were teaching gnostic doctrine. You're a reprobate who gets his doctrine from reprobates. It's that simple. You're incapable of believing the gospel because, your heart has been hardened. This is why you're in direct opposition to the truth and would make any excuse to attempt to refute it. Read these verses to know what sin is according to the bible. It also says that if a person does something he knows is wrong, it is sin as well.....James

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

Romans 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me

Anonymous said...

William. You are truly blind, you're also a hypocrite and can't help but contradicting yourself. It proves you're so far from the truth and your only reason here is to deceive. You blatantly contradicted yourself in a two sentence comment. You claim that I'm "putting the cart before the horse" in regards to John 1, but you claim that Romans 2 is the foundation to Romans 3, and that a person very rarely "pour the foundation after they erected the frame". Please read Romans 1,2,3. Romans 1 is clearly written about the Romans (Gentiles), and Romans 2 is clearly written about the Jews, and Romans 3 is Pauls summary of the first 2 chapters. Paul tells us what he means about Romans 1 and 2 in the third chapter. He actually says "therefore we conclude". You're a walking contradiction to the point that it's almost funny. I really don't see the point in commenting on your other wild lies and accusations. There's no point in commenting when you're being both spiritually and intellectually dishonest. .......James

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Anonymous said...

Your wafer will perish, but the Word of God will endure forever........John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed

Anonymous said...

Jesus is the Word made flesh. More proof John 6 was spoken in the context of John 1......John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

William Sculley said...

James, now you're saying that God plays favorites, judging the Jews differently than the Gentiles in the final days, which is NOT what the point was. Romans 2 says "the Lord will render to EVERY man according to his deeds". Now, just because Paul was talking about how the Jews were living and acting under the law does not mean that the EVERY is limited to the Jews, any more than the Calvinist's lie about Peter's claim that "God is not willing that ANY should perish" is only applied to the Elect. When it says "God will render to EVERY man", it really means EVERY man. That's the simple meaning of the words, is it not?

Now, you said originally that we should take John 1 in the context of John 6, not the other way around. That's what you communicated. So when I said you should interpret John 6 in light of the prior context of John 1, I was telling you to, as the Gene Wilder version of Willy Wonka was fond of saying "strike that, reverse it." You reading that as contradicting me telling you to read the latter portions of Romans in light of the portions preceding it, such as the portions you are so clearly seen quoting above, the contradiction is rooted in your misinterpreting what I said in a most grievous fashion, with no respect to the fact that what I am saying is, quite literally, the exact opposite of what you are reading. For the Protestant, the "Romans Road" is not so much a road as it is a switchback. It starts in chapter 3 to form its foundation starting with 3:23, then steps back to 3:10, then goes all the way to chapter 5, then to 6, back to 5, forward to 10, and ignores the rest of Romans. There is not a single mention in that about the rest of Romans, even though Romans is the closest the Scripture gets to a systematic view of any topic in Scripture. The entire book of Romans is focused on one thing: salvation and how we are saved. The foundation is in the first three chapters. Remember that this book was not written with chapter numbers, verses, or anything more than paragraphs and page breaks to serve as demarcations of where you were.

The theme of the book of Romans would best be summed up as "God's righteousness revealed in Christ for our salvation. The first two and a half chapters focus on the mortality and actual sinfulness of all mankind, and how we are judged. He moves on to talk about salvation through Christ apart from the MOSAIC Law, then to new life in Christ, with lots of references to the Baptism. He then talks about our anointing in the Spirit, with references to the actual anointing they would do to all new believers, just as priests would be anointed (that is what "Laying on hands" means).

William Sculley said...

I'm going to quote from an article in the Orthodox Study Bible here as a reference for you. If you want to see it for yourself, it is on page 1523 of the OSB that I am using, published by Thomas Nelson Publishers. I am also including quotes from their Scripture references in the parentheses with the verse numbers. Without further ado, here it is:


Even as believing Christians, we must not take the outcome of God's final judgment for granted. In every Divine Liturgy Orthodox Christians pray, "For a good defense before the dread Judgment Seat of Christ, let us pray to the Lord! Lord have mercy." Romans 2:2-16 describes God's Judgment, showing how we can prepare ourselves for it. God's righteous judgment will be:

1. According to truth (2:2-3: But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?): Nothing is hidden from God. He sees everything and knows the truth about each of us. One of mankind's greatest self-deceptions is to say, "Who sees us?" (Isaiah 29:15) and think there is no judgment.

William Sculley said...

2. According to impenitent hearts (2:4-5: Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God): An unrepentant or hard heart despises God's goodness, treasuring up the wrath of God at the judgment. A repentant heart, on the other hand, is grateful for God's patience and abides in Christ, practicing a lifetime of repentance, which produces confidence before Him at the judgment (I John 2:28: And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming).

William Sculley said...

3. According to our deeds (2:6-15: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)): The "doing good" referred to in 2:7 is not an attempt to gain merit with God. Rather, it the the unity of intentions with actions, faith with works. Even unbelievers are rewarded for good works, apart from spiritual understanding (2:14-15). But note the following:

(a) "Doing good means seeking God's glory (2:10), not our own glory; God's honor, not our own honor; the eternal reward of immortality, not reward here and now. "Doing good" is seeking first the Kingdom of God (Matthew 6:33: Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you)
(b) Good intentions alone, or faith without works, will not save (2:13). Simply to hear and not do is religion without reality. Those with true faith, "the doers" of the truth, practice virtue from pure and repentant hearts (James 1:21-27)
(c) "By nature" (v 14) people are inspired by and cooperate with God's grace. Therefore, good deeds are natural to us, whereas evil deeds are contrary to nature. Because we all fail, we need God's mercy (3:9-10: What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one."). The presence of God's law in our conscience (2:15) condemns anything we do contrary to true human nature. Therefore, even Gentiles--people not under the Law of Moses, those who do not know of Christ--have an internal law from God, the natural law written in their hearts, according to which God will judge them. Melchizedek, Job, and the Ninevites are Old Testament examples of non-Jews judged to be righteous. Jews, then, have two laws from God--the Law of Moses and conscience--and are accountable to Him for both (2:12).
(d) Those who are condemned choose to reject God. There is no automatic, fated condemnation: God's just judgment of us is based on our exercise of free will. Although sin impairs our powers, it does not destroy God's image in us or our free will.

William Sculley said...

4. By Jesus Christ (2:16: In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel) In the day of Judgment we are not judged directly by God the Father, Whom we cannot see, but by the incarnate Son Whom we do see, Christ Jesus (Acts 17:31: Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man Whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead)(John 3:16-21, 35-36: For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God...The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."). Christ will judge on the basis of the light He Himself has given to each of us (John 1:9: That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.) and our response to His Light (John 3:16-21). "The secrets of men" (Romans 2:16) are "the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12: For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.)

William Sculley said...

Bottom line is that salvation is not merely forgiveness. If you're saying that salvation is a relationship, then you must say that there must be active involvement by two parties in a relationship for that relationship to be real. That doesn't mean the relationship is not one-sided. It's a relationship with an infinite, all-powerful, all-loving God that made a sacrifice we can't even begin to equal on our behalf. Nobody is downsizing how awesome God is. What you are doing, rather, is downsizing what God expects, nay, demands of us. If works are unnecessary for salvation, then there is absolutely no need for us to obey even ONE of His commandments. What's the worst that can happen to me if I refuse to obey? I believe He is God. I believe He sacrificed His Life on Calvary for me. I believe He has offered forgiveness and eternal life. At least, I do that in the English meaning of believe.

What do I lose if I don't do good works, then? What is the worst that could happen if I believe and say I'm sorry? Nothing whatsoever according to your doctrine. You can try and say that a true believer would do good works, but that's just rationalization. Logically speaking, it doesn't matter at all what I do.

It is correct that a true believer would have good works in my theology. It's inescapable because the works are the substance and product of faith. That is what Faith is. Romans 2 mentions working either good or evil 11 times from verse 4-15. That's once per verse over that passage. It pretty clear what Paul was saying. We are judged according to the content of our actions, and not simply the firing of neurons inside your brain. If what you say doesn't make it to your hands, then it is worthless. You may as well expect paper to beat rock in real life.

Grammy G said...

James, you must remember that some people haven't arrived yet and are seeking. When you make unloving and demeaning comments it serves only to discourage others. Your comments can lack loving-kindness and could be the very thing that turns someone off from learning more about Jesus. Some people could care less about how much you know, but rather more about how much you care. We are to correct in love, but first we need to make sure we are indeed correct. Please seek the Holy Spirit when making statements to others.

"Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? Let him show out of good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.But if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descended not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." (James 3:13-18).

Anonymous said...

Grammy. William isn't your average everyday "unbeliever" that hasn't put his trust and faith on Jesus Christ yet. He's an apologist who knows what he's saying is contrary to scripture but doesn't care. He has continually taken the stance against the gospel in favor of "another gospel". He's all over the Internet spouting off scripted apologetics. He has heard the gospel MANY times but has rejected it every single time. His conscience is seared with a hot iron. Only God knows how many times he allows a person to reject the gospel before he rejects them. People are given over to a reprobate mind that do these things. How can someone who is staunchly opposed to the gospel and is speaking openly against it be someone who just hasn't found the gospel yet? I know who I'm speaking to when I have discussions with William, it seems you don't know who he is. Just do a google search for his name and you will find a few tid bits. I earnestly defend the gospel against anyone who tries to drag it through the mud, I will not apologize if this offends you. I don't love those who don't love God. I don't have "compassion" for ravening wolves that seek to muddy the waters and draw people away from the true gospel. Mr Scully is all of this and more. I've been called a lot of things by a lot of people, and I always have those who criticize my lack of "compassion" for those who are enemies of the cross of Christ. Please remember that there are examples of people in the bible (David being one) who have said more uncompasionate words than I have toward people like this. Jesus called such people "vipers". Have I called Mr Sculley a viper? I think you get my point.........James

William Sculley said...

James, if that is sincerely what you think of me, then you are sincerely mistaken. Here is what you are mistaken about:

1. I am not saying something I know to be contrary to Scripture. You are a man. Calvin and Luther were men. What I am saying is contrary to the Protestant interpretations of Scripture which you are posting here.

2. I am not staunchly opposed to the gospel. I am opposed to the innovations dreamed up by men who wanted an easy salvation designed for pew surfing. Your gospel is much more desirable on the surface than Orthodoxy will ever be, but that does not make your gospel correct. Since your gospel is in direct contradiction of large swaths of Scripture, like Romans 2, which says 11 times that we are judged according to our works; Matthew 25, which demonstrates that we are judged according to how we treat the least worthy person we come across; and and James 2, which declares, in answer to the question "can faith save a man without works?" by saying "we are justified by our works, and NOT by faith alone.

You come up with more and more convoluted excuses to ignore the plain truths shown in Scripture. I have not dragged the gospel through the mud in GOD'S eyes, and those eyes are the only eyes that matter to me. The only way you could ever make the libelous claims you made just now is if you happen to BE God. I don't worship you. I worship the one True God. You do not know my heart. The people Christ called vipers were called so because they pretended that they were holier than other people. So when she calls you out for the sin of lacking love, she is 100% in the right on this, because you failed to deliver on the commands of I Corinthians 13. You have depicted no love, but rather slander and libel. You speak of what you do not know because you pretend to know what I am saying.

You cannot tell me why you believe James, Christ, and Paul are not telling the Truth regarding the judgment. You have said they are telling the truth, then turn around and say that the truth is the exact opposite of what they said. You say James is correct in saying "we are justified by our works, and not by faith alone", but then turn around and say that faith has no part in salvation, even though justification is an integral part of salvation. You say that the words of Christ are not correct, not by directly claiming it, but by relying on a tradition invented by the Protestants in their hatred and fear of the Roman Catholic Church.

So yes, Grammy, I encourage you to actually read the other things I have written in the past five years. Don't take James's Fox News approach to knowing what others believe. If you want to know what I believe and think, ask ME, not James. He is not God. He cannot see the content of my heart, and places the tradition of Sola Fide above Scripture, rejecting every single one of the passages that say we must do works to be justified. Do not listen to people who intend to slander others by judging through their own personal biases. James cannot judge himself according to the standard he judges me by, because he would fail to meet that standard himself. He is one who talks a big talk, but he simply says that something is untrue by virtue of it not being what he believes. He can't give satisfactory answers regarding any of his beliefs. So I ask, why ought I to follow him when he can't "be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear"?

William Sculley said...

I believe and affirm the following to be completely true:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Any gospel that says that eternal life is obtained through any means other than doing good in obedience to Christ is a gospel that was never known to the Apostles as anything other than heresy. I left the Baptist Church because it had nothing for me. I left Protestantism because it had nothing for me. And whether James likes it or not, I see the same message in his writing that I see in the Protestant world. He doesn't like being called a Protestant, but he persists in writing things that are patently Protestant.

teshuvahmusic said...

Grammy G, spot on. Where is the meekness of wisdom in this discussion -- on either side?

I long ago gave up trying to have fruitful discussions with James on this board, because he doesn't play fair. He argues with what he thinks you're saying, not what you are saying, and throws out accusations like candy at a parade.

I took the challenge to google "William Sculley." All I found was a YouTube video of him interpreting a sermon in ASL. Not sure what the hullaballoo is about with him being "seared" or some big-name false teacher or whatever.

Guys, please, just give it up, or take it to private email chat. The rest of us are weary of your bickering. Neither of you is going to convince the other, and you know it.

Anonymous said...

Teshuvah. the only thing I've ever spoken out against was false doctrine. You put out plenty of that.....James

Anonymous said...

Salvation by faith alone wasn't taught before the reformation? Again I'll use your own sources. There is no way you can justify your stance on this issue. The scriptures and your own sources prove your false beliefs wrong.......James......."And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work." (First Clement, 32-33)

In the earliest extant treatise on baptism, Tertullian addresses a large variety of views held by various individuals and groups. Among the views he addresses is the belief that "Baptism is not necessary for them to whom faith is sufficient; for withal, Abraham pleased God by a sacrament of no water, but of faith." (On Baptism, 13)

In the seventh century, Andreas records the comments an earlier Christian author made about faith and baptism:

"Now someone might object to this and say: 'Did Paul not use Abraham as an example of someone who was justified by faith, without works? And here James is using the very same Abraham as an example of someone who was justified, not by faith alone, but also by works which confirm that faith.' How can we answer this? And how can Abraham be an example of faith without works, as well as of faith with works, at the same time? But the solution is ready to hand from the Scriptures. For the same Abraham is at different times an example of both kinds of faith. The first is prebaptismal faith, which does not require works but only confession and the word of salvation, by which those who believe in Christ are justified. The second is postbaptismal faith, which is combined with works. Understood in this way, the two apostles do not contradict one another, but one and the same Spirit is speaking through both of them." (JPJ, 32)

Anonymous said...

Continued.........Augustine refers to a large variety of views of justification that existed in his day (The City Of God, 21:17-27). Here are some of his comments:

"But, say they, the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned. Let the Apostle James summarily reply to them: ‘If any man say he has faith, and have not works, can faith save him?’” (The City Of God, 21:26)

"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (ECD, 484)

“Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (BOP, 61

Anonymous said...

Here's another I found. It's obvious Rome doesn't represent the the beliefs of their "church fathers". I don't need these quotes to believe what my bible clearly says. I'm posting them for those who claim that salvation by faith was "never taught before the reformation". It's clear this failed apologetic stance has been refuted. I expect denial and the changing of subject to occur, or maybe another flat out lie. Whatever it is I'm sure it will be along the lines of the apologetic script. No matter how much evidence is provided it will never be enough for those who's conscience has been seared......James........Clement of Rome "Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which alone Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time." (Early Christian Writings [New York, New York: Penguin Books, 1987], 36)


Anonymous said...

William. It's important to read the bible while considering context. Without context you can make it say a number of false things. In Romans 1 Paul is talking about how the Gentiles are without excuse. In Romans 2 (the verse you quoted) he's talking about how the Jews are without excuse. He's talking about those Jews who think they are justified by their works. He's telling them that if ones capable of living their whole life without breaking the law (sinning) then they would in fact be justified. Since the law is our school master we know there is no way one can live their life without breaking the law in one point, and scripture says if you break it in one point you're guilty of breaking the whole law. If deeds could save you then Christ died in vain. I urge you to stop taking the bible out of context and read whole chapters. Read Pauls summary of the first 2 chapters which is chapter 3. The first 3 chapters of Romans is telling and important doctrine when read together as it was meant to be read. In chapter 3 he summarizes it by saying we are justified by FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. If you still think your religion is based on the bible, you should stop reading commentaries and get your doctrine from the source. Read Romans 2:25 to get an idea of the the chapter. Better yet, read the whole thing. Have you ever broke the law? Well since you're relying on your own deeds then you will end up paying for the penalty of sin. Christ Jesus profits you none if you're relying on yourself.......James

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision

William Sculley said...

James, please reread that passage, because there's an awful lot of putting the Greeks or Gentiles (depending on your particular translation) into the same pot as the Jews. Observe:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I am not relying on my own deeds to make up for the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is paid for. But the penalty of sin is not the only obstacle to salvation. Salvation is a relationship with God, not a carnival prize that the muscle man of the carnival won for you by ringing the bell that you didn't have the strength to win. Get this through your skull: any person who says that Orthodox are trying to achieve restitution for sin via works is either a bold-faced liar or is ignorant. This is not Pelagianism or Western in ANY way. The idea that the penalty of sin is what salvation pays for is a Roman Catholic idea which stems from an erroneous teaching that was derived from St. Augustine of Hippo. Nobody is teaching this in Orthodoxy because it is a fundamental difference between Western and Eastern theology.

Can you, for the love of all that is holy, manage to actually admit that maybe, just maybe, you don't understand what I have said because of your false assumption that we preach that we obtain forgiveness from the penalty for sin from works? Salvation isn't simply that. To be saved, one must have a living, active relationship with Christ that is built on shared experiences with Him. That is salvation in Orthodoxy, because that is what eternal life is.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
-John 17:3

You can't know God in that manner by just saying a few magic words. As Fr. Stavros of Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church said, "just because you say the prayers right or I say a prayer for you does not mean you are going to heaven."

Anonymous said...

William. When Paul is saying "for all who sin" he is speaking in reference to the people in context. He's telling them there is no difference between the "Jew or Greek" who believe in Christ, I believe the scriptures make that part clear. Read my above statement about Paul saying the "doers of the law" being justified", yes if you're capable of keeping the whole law which no one is capable of doing hence the need for a savior to save us from the penalty of sin which comes by faith alone. There's no need for circle arguments or a rehashing of past points. You claim that salvation is by faith when up against undeniable proof, but you still deny it subtly. I believe it's you who are either in the dark and thus in complete denial, or you're yourself a "bold faced liar". Does the Orthodox Church have a sacramental system set up where the laity is dependent on them for their salvation? YES!!! In RC and orthodoxy the laity are told there is no slating unless you partake in "sacraments". These "sacraments" are works. This is where the Protestant churches and other pseudo Christian spin offs agree. It's all works based salvation. Your trust is in these sacraments instead of Jesus Christ and this is the crux of the issue.......James

William Sculley said...

So...A passage that says that all people will be judged according to the saame standard is actually saying the polar opposite of what it actually said.

Finally, the following statement is a patented lie. I told you it was a lie. You continued in it. Here is the statement:

"Does the Orthodox Church have a sacramental system set up where the laity is dependent on them for their salvation? YES!!! In RC and orthodoxy the laity are told there is no slating unless you partake in "sacraments". These "sacraments" are works"

That is 100% false. Are you a liar or will you retract the fallacious statement? If you're going to be a liar, then this conversation is over. There is no profitable purpose to discussing anything with a person who will depend upon slander and deceit. So just tell me: will you continue teaching the LIE that Orthodoxy depends on self? Or will you allow the actually Orthodox person who is actually in the Church say what it is that he believes instead of putting up your lies to use as strawmen?

Anonymous said...

Sculley. It's obvious you don't read the bible, nor do you intend to. If you did you'd know the context of Romans 2. If you spent half the time reading the bible as you spend on apologetics you wouldn't believe in works salvation. I find in humorous (more like sad) that you in one breath claim you don't believe in works salvation, but then in the next you are still trying to say Romans 2 says we are saved by works. Which is it mr Sculley? Here's another scripture in James that I'm sure you never read " a double minded man is unstable in all his ways".....James

Anonymous said...

Mr Sculley. This quote is taken from the Greek Orthodox archdiocese of Americas own website. It clearly says that without water baptism, and the "Eucharist" (sacraments) there is no salvation. That is sacramental salvation. I don't know why you're trying to deny these things. It only proves your dishonesty.....James........". Our “new birth” is given to us in Baptism according to the words of the Lord: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). And if we lose our way, heartfelt prayer, repentance, Holy Confession and Holy Communion provide personal occasions for spiritual renewal throughout our lives. How important for salvation the Eucharist is, we know from the words of Christ: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:54). In these many ways, according to Christ, Orthodox Christians throughout their lives receive salvation and renewal through faith, works, and the sacraments of the Church."

Anonymous said...

I'd like to point out that the scriptures clearly say that Noah's ark was a sort of foreshadowing of water baptism. Peter compares it to baptism in 1 Peter 3, then clearly says that baptism does save us, but it's not water baptism but the baptism of the Holy Ghost. He clearly says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (water), BUT the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Christ". This "good conscience" is putting your total trust in the Lord Jesus Chriat and NOT the "putting away of the filth of the flesh" which comes by water. Water baptism is something every believer should do as God clearly say to do so, but it's clear by Peter himself that it does not save.........James.....1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Anonymous said...

Here is another verse (5) that papists and orthodoxy like to twist. They do this by only quoting verse 5 and ignoring verse 6. Being "born of water" in verse 5 Jesus compares to "that which is born of the flesh", so he's speaking of the physical birth. Every person when they are born is born of water, the water then breaks and a child is born. Please don't believe anything that an apologist says.......James......John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

William Sculley said...

It's funny that these quotes don't name any people or give a link to substantiate your claim.

Rules: if God gives a command, it is NOT optional. If it is not necessary for one to have a saving relationship, then it is completely optional. Don't murder? That's just a suggestion. Go ahead and murder all the people you want. The magic of "pretty please" means it doesn't matter.

That is the result of Sola Grazie. If the commands of God are made in ANY WAY to be optional, then there is no point for them. If you get some special treatment, like crowns or a prettier mansion for doing good works, then you have reason to boast, making your pet verse in Ephesians a lie. The person can say "look at my pretty crown that you don't have.

It's funny that Peter doesn't REALLY mean save, even though he used the word. James didn't really mean save, even though he used the word. Jesus didn't mean that you have to love God and neighbor, even though He said "GO AND DO THOU LIKEWISE"

Basically, your argument is "because I choose to assume that works must fully replace grace, even though there is nowhere in Scripture or logic that says that, Jesus and Paul and James all didn't really mean what they said. They were lying."

Either the Scripture is true in its plain meaning and your interpretation is twisting things, or the Scripture is false and I would just flat out leave Christ behind in ALL manners if that were true because I won't follow a liar.

Christ said you must do something to obtain eternal life. That is 100% true or else Christ is a liar and does not deserve following

Anita said...

I have felt the same things you describe. A misfit in the church and certainly a misfit in the world. I've realized that there is no perfect church. Seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and listen. I also struggle with the very things you've described.

Anonymous said...

Greetings, I've been in and out of your blog for the past few years and have found that you do stand for the truth.
I can feel your confusion, pain, and weariness, and I must say I am, and have been for years, going through all the trials, false accusations, etc., that you are experiencing.
The Apostasy is so great, and it's web of deception has been going on for so many decades, it is overwhelmingly wicked.
Popular pastors I once listened to many decades ago over the radio and TV when I was a babe in Christ, I now realize are false Shepherd's fleecing their flocks, and feeding them God's Word filled with Leaven. The Lord has been opening my eyes, and ears, since the 90's, and I could see the Anti-Christ system spreading like a wild fire.
I have not been in the "systematic government run, organized" churches in many years.
The last church I visited a couple of months ago, which was a "First Baptist Church", was simple, small, and the people seemed friendly, but I always grab the Churches brochures, and Newsletters which are put out by their "national" office, and when I searched it out and did some research, I found they are involved with Emergent and church growth structure.
I have not gone back, it's so sad, and frustrating and depressing.
Like you I suffered spiritual abuses in a number of places, one was a home fellowship lead by a woman, and was a believer and teacher of the "Kingdom Now" teachings, pentecostal and rather charismatic, with the gifts. The lady pastor was arrested with abuse charges, and ended up in jail for 6 months, I ran from the place so wounded, confused beyond measure, and felt I was a Judas for leaving the group.
The Lord brought me through it all, and after a couple more experiences with cult like fellowships, I have been on my own with a few Christians here and there through the years.
It was extremely lonely at times and very trying, and questioning if "I" be the one, possibly deluded......but the Lord always brings me back to HIM and His Word!
I am presently going through some trials and dealings, the Lord is finally helping me face the sexual, and physical abuses I suffered through my mother, and the layers that have not been dealt with for decades, but I am going through it, because the Lord is going through it with me and bring healing in His Wings.
There is so much more I could share, but I desire to try and keep it some-what simple. I just desire to encourage you to push closer to our Lord, read the Psalms as the Lord should lead you, cry out to HIM all you your thoughts doubts, and confusion and Trust in HIM, Wait upon Him, and He shall bring you through it......HE is TRULY our only HOPE, and His Promises are ever steadfast!
No matter what, when we have NO ONE else to run to, HE is there for US, and sometimes to be alone is EXACTLY where we need to be, because we must face the reality, we like running to many people where possible for support, assistance and encouragement. When the blocks are there, then it is HE we need to turn to.
I shall be praying for you......
Love in Christ.....A brother.

teshuvahmusic said...

Anon 2:47 pm, Good on you for checking out the denominational level teachings and getting away from the Emergent garbage. I'm so sorry for the abuse you suffered from so many sources. Praise and thanks to Abba that you are finding healing! Amen to your words -- read the Psalms, and cry out to HIM! Especially the Psalms of Ascent (120 through 134). They are very good if you have been thru spiritual abuse.

Debra said...

EXODUS 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
The Israelites were held in slavery, captivity and bondage for 400 years in Egypt. God delivers them so they can feast with Him in the wilderness. My first thought was how does one feast in the wilderness when you’ve come from 400 years of bondage? Their mindset must have been wrapped around being enslaved and beaten, without freedom to worship the Lord. God wanted them set free, free from their old life under the wicked Pharaoh who would throw them a choice meal or two.
God calls us out of the world and into the wilderness, separating us from a type of Egypt that could imprison our souls. You typically would not find much entertainment, luxuries or establishments of fine eateries and wells of fermented grape juice among the sand beneath your feet. This is what disturbed the Israelites. They were used to fine foods where their palatable savory’s glided down parched, hungry, worn and wasted bodies. It would hold them over until the dawn would break and the sounds of heavy labor breathed in the weary souls of Israelites.
We would not think of feasting in the wilderness but what God was calling the Israelites to was total worship unto His glorious Name. There were no burdens to carry, just a time of complete devotion to our God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This is why God says, “Come out of her my people!”
Revelation 18:4 (KJV)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Jeremiah 51:45 (KJV)
45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
The problems the Israelites encountered came because they thirsted and hungered for Egypt’s debasement. The blandness of the desert and its offerings were much too sedate and mundane. Compared to Egypt there was no idolatry, reveling, prancing and dancing even with the stripes on their torn flesh, they mourned for Egypt.
They turned their backs on God and decided to worship in the custom of God’s enemies. Sometimes we may feel like we are in a desert, a type of wilderness where all you can hear is the lizard’s tail gliding across the sand. The air is still and the rocks majestically hold their place. The sun is silenced by the coolness of night when the winter brisk finally arrives.
There is no chattering, turning discord into fighting competitors only aiming to win. There are no shouting matches, plots to deceive, manipulators and antagonists. There are no beating drums that require others to be hypnotized to their repetitive sounds. There are no theaters at work for exclusive viewing deceiving through a television box or any other means. There are no invasions of sights and sounds to defile the eyes and ears.
The wilderness is not to be a place of roaming and wandering in faithless garments. It is a place where God called the Israelites out to worship and feast on Him alone. What does the heart do when God calls us onto Himself, without all the clamor and bellowing babble echoing in our minds? Do we say yes God, I’ve come out to worship and celebrate a feast to declare Your glory.
When we are born again we enter into the new life, leave the old behind. We no longer are slaves to the flesh or under the control and dominion of satan as the evil Pharaoh. We are freemen.
GALATIANS 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

teshuvahmusic said...

Debra -- well said. Wilderness = freedom = not what we expect. Adjustment is hard, but worth it!!

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