Sunday, January 1, 2017

10 Years Later The Botkin Sisters Remain Unmarried: The Failure of the SAHD Movement



This is the movie the Botkin daughters made some years ago. I do not endorse it but am showing it to expose the messages of the false SAHD movement and the patriarchy movement.

I'll be blunt, when your "earthly" Daddy is raised to priestly and "god-like" status in your life, there's not much room left for a husband. Also if you are watched every minute and living like you are 12 years old at the age of 24, there's not much room to meet a mate you want to spend the rest of your life with. Seven years ago, in some of the growing backlash of "Why aren't you married yet?" the Botkin sisters responded by focusing on the poor character of men instead of questioning some of the cult control their own father had placed upon them.

Not everyone is meant to be married. Some will be single for life. I did not marry until I was 29 years old and was called an "old maid".  Sadly I believe both women could be married by now if they had not been raised in a cult. Jim Bob Duggar started arranging marriages for his girls, though he seems to be neglecting his overly-sheltered sons on that score which is why you see the uneven number of marriages among the girls vs. the Duggar sons.

The Visionary Daughter movement sadly failed both these women.

Geoff Botkin, their father is a supporter of Trump and has praised him on his website "Western Conservatory of Arts and Sciences" 

  Stay At Home Daughter Movement

17 comments:

Debra said...

I'm not commenting on the movement itself, but reading the article in which they wrote about contentment in single-hood and serving the Lord. I married later in life and my husband is 5 years younger than I. We met in church while I was doing an outreach food drive for a local downtown homeless shelter organization. When I got to the place of contentment in my singleness the Lord did bring my husband. Not saying this is the case for anyone else, just what happened to me. Many young adults are influenced by the world such as drugs, alcohol, partying, sexual activities among other things. During college years it is saturated among the dorms and even in High School. So if these girls are kept pure and unadulterated from the world I applaud them. My friends have teenagers and college age. Some of the things shared is worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't even want to hear the details obviously. These sisters are being spared from dating boyfriend to boyfriend, heart-break to heart-break, promiscuity living in acquaintances and relationships, diseases passed on and vile lifestyles. I trust that one day God will provide, if He so desires, Godly men who will be faithful as they are faithful to the Lord. I agree with the sister's comment that sometimes you have to wait until God works with these men on the Potter's Wheel.

Bible Believer said...

I think these girls are "locked up" in a cult instead of having their decisions to stay pure based on inner conscience and a relationship with God directly the descision. I am against the drugs and fornication too, but having the answer being keeping young women and {men} under constant control is no answer too. When do they get to grow up? Maybe the Baby Boomers will live long enough to keep their 30 something adult "children" under wraps but life spans are dropping among the next two generations. What of a 25 year old who is an orphan? One would hope that these morals would be self directed and not imposed by "father's" rules at an age when one should be making their own decisions. I am against the patriarchy movement.

http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2011/02/two-sides-of-same-evil-coin-radical.html

I do wish these young women had their own lives and had been allowed to grow up. I know it is more difficult for women to find Godly men.

Debra said...

In the public system and even in Christian schools there are no moral boundaries. During the age of growing up, many Christians are influenced where their Christianity no long reflects true devotion to God. My friend who has a high school daughter cannot even attend the Bible Study in her High School because the leader talks about making out with her boyfriend. She says the Christians are no different than the rest of the school kids. College age is worse if you can even fathom that. So growing up in our culture today means something different than it used to. What was shunned or hush hush before is now openly displayed and accepted.In fact if you come against the tide, you can be kicked out of school for hate speech. I don't agree with the cult practices of any false religious system. I'm looking at the positive side of it from sparing the girls from what is now the days of Noah. If they were in the public school system I could see why there was slim pickins among Godly Christian men. Even in single Christian church groups they have wolves among them so that women get deceived.

Bible Believer said...

I think it is better for moral boundaries to be instilled from the inside instead of forced from the outside. What good is being good, if you are MADE to be good. Ie chaperoned every second like the Duggar girls until they are married? I don't believe in locking up women to force their chastity. In this evil world, that is the soonest way to make a woman a naive target who won't even discern when they have become one. Maybe you see them as "spared" I see them as overly sheltered and more vulnerable in a way. I know you are newer to this blog, but I do not agree in over sheltering of youth. Yes the world is evil but if you give teens no tools to fight with and keep them in the dark about things, that is trouble right there. It is true how will women find Christian men or vice versa today? The churches are so terrible that's a tough one. I know I write this from the perspective of my own rough life. I was never protected. In this world, to be frank, oh hope I don't sound too rough here, a young woman needs to know self defense and situational awareness to keep herself chaste. Letting them think the world is 'safe" and keeping them naive is a recipe for disaster. I believe men SHOULD protect women [not lock them up like the Taliban] but many young women re not protected and fathers can be abusive and not even Christian themselves.

Bible Believer said...

These two women were locked up like the Taliban locks up it's women, but unlike the Taliban, Orthodox Jews and Jim Bob Duggar, no arranged marriages were set for them so they are single now into their mid 30s. I hope the father does not leave everything to the sons and leaves them penniless, they could be awaiting a very harsh life and could see the streets. That is when the over-sheltering could definitely be a horrible disaster. A system that precludes a father living long enough to take care of an unmarried daughter for life also is insane. Parents die.

Debra said...

I think the Duggar episodes were all scripted. After one got married you see them in a photo raising horn hands in full view. Sometimes we believe everything we see on TV and on the news when it is made to be a production to deceive the masses. As far as having a Father figure authority, I cannot relate to that as I never knew my Father. I agree that this ideology about women can only serve in the home is not Biblical. Deborah the Judge was not in her home cooking meals all the time. College in this day and age is a good idea if you can afford it, parents who can pay for it or are willing to go into thousand of dollars in debt. Going into debt is not a good idea. The average yearly tuition is $25,000 and for Ivy League minimum of $40,000. I sat next to a Stanford Student who I asked questions to. She said all Freshman dorms are wild, Greek houses too, the drug house and nude house as well. The 4 class dorms are not so bad. My friend's daughter went to a college, stayed in an apt/dorm room sharing it with a few others. One of the roommates had her boyfriend there every night. Most community colleges are less expensive but even then a student would have to work full time. My friend's daughter works three jobs and goes to a junior college full time. She still has to live at home because the cost of living is insane. When she stayed at the college apt/dorm room one of the parents would send bottles of hard liquor in the mail to their daughter so they could all party. Most of the girls on campus were permiscuous. Having God's Holy Spirit and loving the Lord with our whole mind, heart and soul can anchor us while the world spins in sin. BTW, the beiginning of this video production had a compass as in Masonic compass. I myself did not get married till one month shy of 35. He is a Godly man who loves the Lord.

Debra said...

I did want to add to my most recent comment that the Lord gives us all gifts as believers. He wants us to use these gifts according to the desires of His will. We cannot limit the Lord by any unbiblical ideology. Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
The right is doing God's will by the Spirit of God...the wrong is thinking you are doing God's will even in "good works" by doing them in your flesh.
I'm not a complete advocate of every Dr. but we need Dr's who can administer surgery, prevent heart failure, kidney transplants among other life giving things. The most important part is our salvation. If everyone was in the home, we would have a shortage in many fields of care. I believe in Jesus being my healer, but He also can use the medical profession if He so chooses as well. I'm an advocate of natural products and healthy foods so there is a balance. We don't have a perfect earthly system by no means. This is why Jesus will bring us a New heaven and earth to reign as King. Revelation 21:1

Anonymous said...

Sally Says

I see the damages that this movement from cause for women. One of the ladies in the video has now left the movement due to alleged impropriety between herself and one of the leaders who people have said groomed her for his own gratification and seems to be living a life far away from God. When I read the report from the lawsuit that she filed against this man, you think to yourself - are we talking about a young girl of 8 or 10? instead of a grown woman.

I mean when a guy hits on you like that, the most you would do is remove yourself away from that situation and file a complaint against him straight away. But what did this girl do? she continued to visit his home and nanny his children and believed that he would marry her, if she allowed him to do what he wanted to do. But again as bible believer said, when you are sheltered away like that, you have no idea what is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour and what to do when it happens. You know something is not right, but you don't know what.

I agree with a couple of elements of the movement in terms of homeschooling. The schools are really bad and you can pick up things that you don't want to pick up. My innocent 8 year old niece has already been exposed to lewd conduct from a child no older than herself. This child's parents allows her to do what she wants from the sound of things and she probably picked up such a behaviour from the TV set. If I had a child, I would not allow him or her anywhere near an ordinary school. I would rather christian homeschool. We have schools over here (England) that are A.C.E, but they seem to shut down every ten seconds and are not good in terms of the child being able to get into University. As for university, perhaps a distance learning one.

In terms of daughters staying at home. If the daughter wants that, than fine. If not, that should not be imposed on her. I am tired of the world making us women feel inadequate if we choose to stay at home with our children. I do believe that a christian woman should prioritise her home once married with children as God said and if the job is taking her away from the home, than I think she should just quit and stay at home with her children. In this day and age, it would be totally unwise to be career orientated and obsessed to a point when you children are looked after and raised by other people. Most christian parents I believe nowadays see less of their children than other people and this is way the children renounce God and become reprobates.

People may say that they can only afford to pay the bills if the wife is working, however this is the reason why you should consider if you should 'take a wife' or have children in the first place. Popping out children without an adequate job or income is just insanity personified. I do not agree with the way in which the duggars are doing it, but at least the husbands either work for daddy duggar or for other people and as long as they are not solely relying on daddy duggar for everything, that is fine.

At 40 years old, I am looking to be married and have children and trying to find a mate is an absolute nightmare. However I am not too focused on that becuase of the verse that says that us virgins (which i am technically) should focus on the lord as to how we should please him in both body and spirit. I would not however dream on getting married now becuase I want to pay of my debts and move jobs plus finnish my studies. In other words, I want to be ready physically, emotionally and spiritually, God gave us each a brain and I am using mines.

In terms of marriage in the movement, they could at least provide more opportunities for their girls to meet young men. I am really astounded by the amount of single people in the movement given the fact that these people have loads of kids. If you look at the orthodox jews for example, they seem to have quite a low rate of singles in their religiion.

Bible Believer said...

I have seen the horn hands with the Duggars, so yes there could be more to that story.
http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2015/01/did-duggars-sell-their-souls-for-fame.html

There is definitely some "scripts" among the Truman show family. So I agree with you about not believing everything we see on TV but they do seem to be a "real family having real babies that look like them.

Yes many do not have fathers, or they are born to single mothers where father has died or left town. This is why the Quiverful patriarchy model fails too. Imagine if Jim Bob dies soon. I hope Josh will not be the authority figure then, that thought is frightening. One can tell even the Duggar men are stunted not getting their own jobs or lives even into advanced ages. What is wrong with JD still living at home even though he works and has his own home?

I agree with the warnings about college, at least make sure you are in a field where one can be employed or pay off the debt. The costs are insane. One can learn many things on their own or via the Internet. Yes colleges can be places of wickedness, drinking and promiscous sex. Young people's lives are being destroyed via the debt slavery and the conformity to sin that is demanded in many college circles. Yes the video seems marked. I do believe some of these people advancing these crazy cults are "insiders".

Bible Believer said...

I agree Debra, here many people's gifts especially women's would be denied as they are controlled by father's for life. Watching Jana's life is a shame, where she still lives like she is 12 at the age of 27.

It is true we would have a shortage of many areas of care if every woman was relegated to the home for good. How many people were denied by the Duggar daughters having to stay home. Jana could have been a good teacher or nurse.

I agree salvation is the most important, not legalistic rules and lifestyles based on good health of the middle aged and old, and American lifestyles for the upper classes. Quiverful and Visionary Daughters lifestyles fail for anyone who is below the middle class.

Bible Believer said...


I believe the women are being severely damaged and one can see how depressed Jana is, it is worsening too. The amount of control and failure to mature is astonishing. Yes sex abuse is actually more possible among young women kept extremely naive and under male authority and trained to obey no matter what. It does not surprise me even the revelations with Gothard. Sex abuse was part of the FLDS. Sex abuse has already been known to occur in the Duggar home, these extreme lifestyles do not bring out healthy ways of life. These girls including the Botkins were kept in a state of suspended animation and not allowed to grow up. I have noticed even the boys in the Duggar compound are not growing up and maturing. None are choosing the military or their own career paths even out of an extremely high number. None are going to college, one went for a year and dropped out. The poverty awaiting these young people once the TLC gravy train derails will be the one of the resultant evils of the Duggar parents. My household has college degrees, and we are still poor but for those with no education life will be even far more difficult.

Yes that girl believing that man's false promises of marriage, was set up to fail and be a sex abuse victim. All it takes is one predator. All the sheltering sets women up to be exploited. It is true you do not know what is appropriate or inappropriate. You are not taught to trust your own intuition. If a girl was abused or had narcissitic parents, then her chances of being preyed on are even worse. If Daddy is a rule mongering demagogue, going to Daddy to tell him about the doings of another wicked man are impossible, because the girl would know she would be blamed and seen as a harlot in these extreme legalistic religious systems.

I have to be honest, my opinions of homeschooling have worsened. I knew homeschooled kids even here locally where they were raised to be Quiverful by two educated upper middle class Calvary Chapel parents, while they are sweet they are extremely naive. I think in this case there was some real learning unlike the Duggars, but there seems to be holes.

The schools I know are bad, but all we have to do is watch the Duggars to know their educations are extremely incomplete. They seem slow. They do not have basic cultural and other knowledge. Their vocabularies are very poor. They have been kept ignorant. I keep encountering people online whose abusive, wicked and malignant narcissistic parents kept them home and did allow them to go to school and called it homeschooling while they worked the farm and cleaned the house instead for hours. One popular movement for hippies and lazy parents who don't want to get kids up for school is called "unschooling".

I viewed one homeschooling parent personally who gave her girls 2 hours of worksheets a day and called it a day. I know good homeschooling can be possible but even with the Duggars, they had a low IQ mother who was not well-read and all were limited to her level or below. Too many are being abused in homeschooling and it is something too that affects communities where Christians are taught to go into this insular and sheltered life that does not prepare them for dealing with the real world. I hope I do not offend with my present view of homeschooling but my mind has changed. I do not have a child so I know I am limited perhaps in knowing exactly how bad the schools have gotten. Not everyone can afford a good private school either.
continuing...

Bible Believer said...


I don't think daughters should be forced to stay at home but on the other side, being told "We are kicking you out at 18" causes it's own problems. I was raised to be an ultra feminist with no protection supposedly able to make 6 figures by age 21 and deemed a failure when I didn't make it happen. I agree with you about the treatment of Stay at home mothers. This society is crazy denying women the ability to stay at home with their children. Many do have their children raised by other people. One sad thing is Gen X and millennials will not be able to afford children and are "choosing" not to have them. They are also marrying less because of the debt slavery and being unable to afford homes and because employment is so insecure. I was sick and infertile most of my life, but even if I could have had children, we barely could take care of ourselves. Often it seems now that the most irresponsible people are having the most children, the ones who don't sit back and think "can I afford to take care of this child properly?"

I don't think most of the Duggar men have real jobs beyond TLC. It is disturbing no man is going to find his own career. I've never seen anything like it. Derrick had the most promise as an accountant but now looks like a starving hippie on drugs ready to live in a van. JD works hard it seems but seems to not to have been allowed to grow up either. I do not think any of the adult males are financially independent and there is something really wrong with that. I think the patriarchial/quiverful system is damaging to young men too. The FLDS "lost boys" have made that apparent. Only one Duggar son has married and I doubt any others will at this rate unless one does break away to become their own man and not under the behest of their father.

I know dating today is a nightmare. I almost did not marry and was considered an "old maid" and I know the world mocks those who stay virgins later in life and waiting for a husband. I waited for being engaged but was not saved at the time. I do believe young people are being done a great disservice being denied economic foundations for good marriage and starting families. I believe the social ramifications of this will come to light and be severe in about 30-40 years when Baby Boomers who were mostly more affluent have died of off the proceeding generations can't even keep intact communities together among people who can't even afford homes or security. Even retirement has vaporized for younger generations and this is dangerous as many have had less children. I agree with using your brain and being ready.

Some have said this movement would die out. Daddy Duggar definitely has "arranged" marriages for the daughters but not for the sons. That's why only one son has "married". Obviously the Botkin father never troubled himself to even bother arranging marriages for the daughters and it seems he set them up for failure there too. Now especially in legalistic circles they will be "old maids" and will reach a point where their only hope of marriage is life on their own when their father dies, and they have reached their mid 40s and having children will be more difficult. Orthodox Jews arrange marriages and have match-making services.

Anonymous said...

I had no idea that Geoff Botkin was not seriously involved in searching for husbands for Anna Sofia and Elizabeth. I feel so bad for these girls- they are soo beautiful, it is tragic to watch them pretend to love the abuse they have to endure from their father. The least their father can do for them, after brainwashing them from infancy, is to find husbands for them. People who live in a culture like theirs usually do not even have the social skills to make friendships and let alone husbands for themselves in the secular world.

They have lived segregated lies from childhood, and probably wouldn't know how to go about dating in the ordinary fashion. Even though they have been sheltered and do not know how the outside world works, I am sure the Sisters understand that their father benefits from the money they make from their book and tours. This may be the reason why he does not want them free or married.

If they were in that secular world they abhor so much, at least they would be able to choose husbands and make a small family. With all the touring that they do, the Botkin sisters MUST realize that Daddy Dearest is draining their best years (or 'Flower of their Youth', to use Biblical terms) for the purposes of keeping their money. As they remain unmarried through their 30s, I wonder how much more of this they will take before they crack. I'm sure they know they are missing out- even Jim Bob's and Voddie Baucham's older daughters at least have husbands and homes of their own!

Bible Believer said...

I believe the father never wanted them to marry and yes like you do, he denied them husbands and did not lift a finger for them to "court" or meet anyone. How would a young woman with that conscripted of a life even meet a man to marry? Even Jim Bob got smart enough to follow the Orthodox Jews in matchmaking his daughters, for some reason he is neglecting his sons who are all too sheltered, controlled and employed by him to go find wives. It is true there is a serious lack of social skills which impacts this too. How is someone going to find a mate in the normal world belonging to such an offshoot.

They are almost locked up like those characters in Flowers in the Attic. It is a shame and a tragedy. I fear them finally waking up in their middle ages and the devestation and regret is going to be horrible. :( If they are happy being single, so be it, but all their writings say otherwise to me with the endless justifications, they live in a world too where a only mothers and wives count too.

The lack of adult autonomy among these extreme movements I believe is very dangerous and a very very very poor and evil fruit. We need to pray for them.

Anonymous said...

SallySays

One of the Duggar boys I believe Josiah was in a courtship with a young lady, however after the Josh affair, this courtship ended. I am not sure that it was just to do with that, I believe that seeing the fact that the girl is now at University and seems to have some sort of career in writing. See here, https://marjoriejackson.wordpress.com/my-book/ may have spelt the doom for that relationship. She was also quite outgoing and didn't seem to fit 'the duggar women mode.

In terms of the other Duggar boys/in-laws, Ben (in addition to helping Jim Bob) is at college I believe wanting to be a minister or to have some ministry in the inner city hence his relationship with Flame the rapper.

Jinger's husband is a preacher, Derrick is doing supply teaching work but was doing some missionary work. I suppose that is all the qualifications they need to be a 'Duggar husband. Just be involved in some ministry somewhere saving and helping the 'lost'. With regards to the other duggar adult children, according to the book written by the girls, they each have different skills and abilities - one can do interior design, the other baking, the other gardening, the other mechanical work. They were encourage to develop this skill by their parents. I heard that it is common practice for the parents in this movement to advocate entrepreneurship for the children especiailly the boys.

In terms of forming relationships with others, this is increasingly becoming very tough. In my example, I live in quite a deprived area where finding a mate is non existent. Everyone seems to have issues with mental health, drugs - the full works. The only option would be my church, however I am in the process of deciding whether I should stay there because many of the things that they are teaching are ungodly as well as believe in. The leader supports abortion and all sorts of things. It is not easy being a single christian female because some sort of stigma is attached to that but I try to keep my eyes on God not on the madness out there.

As Jesus said, we will not be given in marriage or marrying in heaven. Marriage is just for down here. If the boys have all these skills, then they should really be cashing in on that and supporting themselves. If Jimbob has enough land to build houses on for all his children, why not allow them to build their home little houses on that land and they go there to live? I believe they would find wives soon enough. All in all, they are not the only ones who are grown adult men living like that. There was some other family the Arndts (they call themselves the famteam) who have at least ten adult men some in their 30s still living at home unmarried.

It is true what you said Bible Believer, if daddy botkin is not looking for matches for his girls, then this is bad and we need to pray for them. I think it is rather selfish for you to advocate that control and not help them out. If you could get married and have children, at least give them the opportunity. Alternatively perhaps the girls do not want marriage themselves and like Jana have been taught to be 'contended in their situation'.







Anonymous said...



Sallysays

Sorry I meant the 'you' to mean daddy botkin. I should have used 'of him' as in 'rather selfish of him'


Anonymous said...

https://botkinsisters.com/article/should-i-keep-preparing-for-marriage-or-is-it-time-to-start-preparing-for-a-single-life