Saturday, November 12, 2016

Does God Install Evil Leaders?

Just like the church system mutilates Romans 13 to preach blind obedience to authorities, I think, the idea that God installs evil leaders is another false teaching. Satan is the prince of this earth. Is God "choosing" Satanic Illuminati chosen leaders? It doesn't make sense. Some say He does this for Judgment and maybe this is allowed, but to see God as an author of evil, doesn't work either.

I like what James, a commenter on the blog wrote:

"I know that God is capable, and does place who he wants running over the nations if he wants, but wasn't it Satan who offered Jesus Christ the kingdoms of the world if he would fall down and worship him? I do not believe that God is responsible for the mess that is taking place in this world. It was man who first imagined things that never came across the mind of God. God, being ever rightous and ever good from everlasting did not invent the evil that's in this world. I have a hard time accepting that God put evil rulers in place, since Satan is "the god of this world". im betwixt the two. I know Gods ways cannot always be understood by man, but it's still tough for me to believe........James"

Hillary was an evil would be leader as well, no doubt of that. Some do hope in Trump and I know there is the human tendency to want to believe in some real change and more optimism, but in my book the global elite are what they are and we will not see the true change wanted on this earth and for this life. The default of history is always nations succumbing to further wickedness.


Anonymous said...

Hi BB,

Daniel 2:20-21 "Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding."

Psalm 75:6-7 "For promotion cometh neither from the East, nor from the West, nor from the South. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another."

Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

I understand when Paul asks believers to pray for those in authority that we might live in peace. Supporting any of the candidates doesn't save.

Hebrews 13:13-14 "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come."

Believers in the LORD Jesus have no place in politics.

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall NOT want...

Bible Believer said...

This may sound like an odd comment, but wouldn't biblical warnings about the seared supercede praying for leaders.

In other words, I am not going to pray for full-blown luciferians who have been given over. I see no use in it.

We are in different times now then most of the world has lived in. The wisdom of praying for leaders was to keep society in more peace. I pray now that the innocent aren't harmed. There's been other times in history I think God would not mandate praying for the seared wicked, like going and praying for Hitler. {yes I know I may be breaking the internet Godwin's law with this one}

Surely God setteth up some of them but if we are in the beast system now...well wouldn't that explain the luciferians?

Anonymous said...

First anon, I was going to post Daniel and Jeremiah and verses Deut about God's sovereignty as well.
Satan has zero power, he's created being, it isn't at war with God... Job is a perfect example. Even Jesus said they had no power over him unless it had been given to them by the Father (John 19).
I live 85 % of this blog, but there is still some of the "Universalist belief system" in some of the posts. Which, takes a lot of work in the mind and heart to overcome. Scripture is specific that GOD IS SOVEREIGN. He raises up kings and kingdoms,and knocks them down. Israel is an example, anytime they were disobedient, they were turned over to their enemies to repent and return. So to say that he doesn't put evil people in power is not true, there is a purpose to it.

Bible Believer said...

I just can't go with this.

We have luciferians who worship Satan in charge. I have posted of the masonic and other links, the hand signs, the evil doings, on this blog.

There is no way that God is the one putting them in. They are the result of sin, a fallen world and a world run by Satan.

Remember this article...

this one ties into this matter. If God gives us evil leaders or evil diseases what does that make God?

Be careful of false religious who support the evil of this world, and try to say God is the author of it. They seem to love suffering, evil and badness and lack empathy.

Bible Believer said...

This world is a wicked horrible place.

It is wicked and horrible because people have forsaken God and because of sin.

God did not make it wicked and horrible.

[trying to put this in the most simple logic I can]

Anonymous said...

Hi BB,

1 Timothy 2:2 is for the believers to live peaceable and quiet lives. It is not for those in authority.

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall NOT want...

Anonymous said...

Try the WORD of God BB.

It is for your life, preservation, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. (Psalm 119).

"Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity. For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb." Psalm 37:1-2

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall NOT want...

Anonymous said...

You don't have to post this... This is for you Bible Believer: Be extremely careful of Calvinism and Calvinist; I have suffered greatly and continue to suffer greatly from their doctrines and ever increasing influence (They have no qualms doing things in secret and ensnaring people). Because Calvinism uses the same word/bible but changes it meaning in particular ways, it has viral mental cult-type properties that play havoc and deep root into ones heart and mind. Be careful, otherwise it's a long drawn out terrible battle that can result in suicide.

Bible Believer said...

I had that thought, one of the astroturfers who told me I was complaining to much, yelled in one post that GOD WAS SOVEREIGN, and I had the thought, that's a CALVINIST or one influenced by those false doctrines. I hope you don't mind that I posted what you wrote me. I do believe they have viral mental cult properties. The Calvinism is even influencing the view of the poor in the article I posted after this one. They do harm people very much so. God has spared me the worse of despair and shown me how they operate but it is a very hard spiritual battle.

Anonymous said...

I do not mind that you posted what I wrote to you.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks. :)

Anonymous said...

To say Satan has no sway in this world is folly and false doctrine. To say that God has created the way this world is, is to say he's the author of suffering, misery, and despair. It's completly wrong. Also whenever one here's the word "sovereignty", rest assured a Calvinist is posting it.......James

Anonymous said...

God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. Those who say that God is responsible for evil is a false prophet......James.....1 John 5: 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Anonymous said...

Excellent insight from commentor James!Thanks for posting it!

Bible Believer said...

Thanks for the warning James.
I appreciate you posting here and glad you commented on this error. It is one that is all over "Christian" websites.

I have warned of Calvinism before on this blog, it is even related to hateful attitudes towards the poor with it's chosen people edicts, of the "elect".

Anonymous said...

These types of false doctrines are all you hear about anymore. Calvinism at one time was staunchly rejected in most churches. To say God is the author of both good and evil contradicts the epistles of John and is basically Gnosticism. We have to remember that Calvinists believe that when the bottom of their sneaker blows out from walking too much, it was the will of God. They completely reject all forms of free will. john Calvin was one of two things, or both. 1 a mass murdering wolf in sheeps clothing. 2 a tool of the papal church to infiltrate the reformation. The true men of God that lost their lives during this period, we don't know their names, and won't until we are glorified. Scripture tells us "woe to you when people speak well of you", knowing that false worldly doctrine is only elevated and praised by the world.......James

Anonymous said...

God does raise up wicked leaders for means of judgement. Isaiah and Ezekiel are very clear on that.

Anonymous said...

anon at 2:28. Why won't Calvinists admit they believe God is the author of evil, since he controls everyone according to John Calvin? No one here denied that God doesn't do so, but Calvinists reject the idea that the bible clearly tells us, and that's, that Satan is the god of this world.....James

Luke 4:6 "And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it"

John 17:15 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil"

Galatians 1:4 "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father"

2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"

Anonymous said...

I was not referring to calvinism at all in my comment to which you addressed me @anon 2:28

Anonymous said...

I was pondering this scripture and wonder if anyone has any thought on it.

3 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. KJV

Anonymous said...

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Anon at 6:10. This is speaking of the "higher powers" that are doing the will of God. evil men like Ante Pavolic, and all other mass murderers were not " a minister of God to thee for good". anyways, the "higher power" in the USA is not the government, but the constitution, a lot of people forget about the good old constitution. It is the one legal document that all presidents and government officials are suppose to go by. If they break the constitution, then they are breaking an oath that they swore to protect, and therefore unfit for office. If you obey Gods Word and our constitution, then you will be doing as Romans 13 requires of you. Donald trump, Hilary Clinton, or any other stooge that gets "sworn in" is NOT our constitution, nor are they America. Our governments role is to protect and serve, not lord over the populace. Hope this is the kind of "thought" you were looking for. God bless........James

Anonymous said...

BB. I didn't mention obeying the law as they coincide with Gods Word. Sorry I didn't include this. There are obviously laws that a Christian is not to partake in, like abortion.......James

Scott Wasinski said...

People do not understand the broader picture. God made man in His own image, after His own likeness and has set man over all the earth to have dominion over all of His creation. Man sinned and willfully gave this authority over to Satan and his angels in our lives and in this world. Through sin, we have yielded our lives unto condemnation. Jesus Christ came to set us free from sin and from the bondage wherewith we chose to be entangled in. Throughout the centuries. nations have risen and nations have fallen, and the Lord God is sovereign over ever single aspect, JUSTLY providing the outcome of all things in our lives, both small and great. We are living in the end times. The prophecies shall stand and the authority of the entire world has been given unto the final beast. We should pray for our leaders, that they might escape their positions of power and be saved. Many have pledged their eternal allegiance unto Satan in exchange for their great power. I do question whether they can be saved. I have no knowledge of any man ever having come out of the upper ranks, being born again. If they do, they are either killed or otherwise silenced successfully. I do suspect that part of their allegiance rituals include receiving a spirit that they must declare is the "Holy Spirit of God" thus, sealing their eternal damnation. All manner of sin shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall never be forgiven.

Donald Trump is absolutely on the inside of this system, in the upper ranks of the public performers. He supports the official narrative of 9/11 and the war on terror (which is, at its core, the war against the saints). The foul of the air shall eat his flesh and drink his blood, just as they shall of all the kings of the earth.

Do not trust your identification to the digital verification system and the embedded microchip in your driver's license, Passport, debit card, or "PositiveID." This will be the only way that you will be able to make one single financial transaction, once the international governing body presents the coming "order out of chaos."

Our hope is definitely NOT in money, nor of the things of this world. We have this to comfort our hearts:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

AW said...

God is not the author of evil and things like sickness and death are part of the human experience because of the Fall. He asks us to trust Him through these things, but that in no way means He is the one who brings it on us.

I will however note that the Bible says in numerous places that God uses, even raises up, entities that we would consider evil... it is unto their own judgment but also for fulfilling God's word, especially that the Lord will be glorified in their final destruction.

"God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart and refuse to let the children of Israel go, and God even warned Pharaoh at the beginning what the final consequence of his refusal would be.

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, ‘Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let My son go, that he may serve Me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.’” — Exodus 4:22-23

"The Bible says that Pharaoh sinned and hardened his heart as well as that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, both of which are perfectly consistent with the fact that God alone knows the hearts of men. When God ‘hardens’ someone’s heart, it is by giving them over to what they’ve already chosen. God knows the end from the beginning and He knows each heart — No one’s cooperation or lack of cooperation will thwart His will being accomplished, and yet at the same time, each of us will be held responsible for what we choose.

"This concept is critically important to understanding the nature of God’s judgments as Recompense & Vengeance, where He gives people over to what they have already chosen and brings the consequences of their own deeds on their heads.

"Unfortunately, this often results in more oppression and wickedness as those who have been given over ‘fill up’ the cup of their iniquity. That God foreknows this and accomplishes His purpose despite the intentions of the wicked does not mean that God causes their evil or that He will not judge them for their deeds, just as we see with Pharaoh.

“…I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure’” — Isaiah 46:9-10

"God tells us this is exactly why He raised up Pharaoh.

“And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, “Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let My people go, that they may serve Me. For I will at this time send all My plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like Me in all the earth.

“For now I will stretch out My hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee My power; and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth.” — Exodus 9:13-16"

AW said...

The Lord raises up the Assyrian...
Isaiah 10: 5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. 6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

... and then punishes him for his pride:
Isaiah10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. 13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: 14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped. 15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

God calls the Northern Army, "His" army...
Isaiah 13: 3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

...and He calls Joel's Army (Northern Army), "His" army...
Joel 2: 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? ... 25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Isaiah 54: 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

AW said...

The Lord also tells us WHY He does this, just as He did with Pharaoh...

Ezekiel 38: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. 17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

... 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 39: 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


God calls the king of Babylon, "My servant"...

Jeremiah 25: 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. 15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

We see this 'wine cup of God's wrath' again in End-Time Babylon...

Jeremiah 51: 7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

God also raised up the kings of the Medes for Babylon's destruction...

Jeremiah 51:... 11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

AW said...

The Lord told the prophet Habakkuk that He was raising up Babylon (Chaldea)...

Habakkuk 1: 5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you. 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's.

God says He puts His sword into the hand of the King of the North/Babylon...

Ezekiel 30: 24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly wounded man. 25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

...and here God equates His sword with the sword of the King of Babylon.

Ezekiel 32: 10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee [Pharaoh], and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

...and here again, God says it is He who brings the sword upon a land in judgment:

Ezekiel 33: 2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman...

In fact, His 'four winds/spirits of heaven' are the same horsemen of the first four seals in Revelation...

Zechariah 6: 2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; 3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. 4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? 5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits[winds] of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.

...and it is these four winds that raise up the beast(s):

Dan 7: 2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion... 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said [the four winds?] thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard... 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

AW said...

We see an amalgam of these beasts in the final beast, who looks like a leopard with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. It has all 7 heads of the four beasts as well as the 10 horns from the 4th beast. We are told that the dragon gives his throne, power, and great authority to the beast, but he is not the one who raises it up nor is he the one who gives the 11th horn dominion for 42 months.

In fact, God Himself says He raises up the beast:

Hosea 13: 6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me. 7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: 8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul [rib cage] of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

Hmn, like a leopard, devouring with the teeth of a lion, and like a bear with ribs in its mouth...

And on a related note of God not being the author of evil, does He cause delusion? Yes, but only in that He is giving people over to what they've already chosen in their hearts.

Ezekiel 14: 2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; 5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

1 Kings 22: 19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
(also 2 Chronicles 18)

2 Thess 2: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It's more complicated than just saying that it's not possible God is the one raising up the wicked when scripture indicates otherwise. In fact, some of the best bible studies have come from seeking the Lord on things I don't understand how to reconcile to His character with other parts of His word. Instead of falling into the trap of the calvinists and others who wrest/cherry-pick the scriptures, it's often a 'both/and' or a 'neither/nor'. So in this case, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you based on the above scriptures.

Scott Wasinski said...

AW, that was very well put together. Thank you for the insight. I love it when someone presents scripture well placed. I did want to correct you on one thing. The Lord God is the only Creator. He is the One that creates the evil and the good that is demanded for the choices of men and angels.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Anonymous said...

Scott said: Do not trust your identification to the digital verification system and the embedded microchip in your driver's license, Passport, debit card, or "PositiveID." This will be the only way that you will be able to make one single financial transaction, once the international governing body presents the coming "order out of chaos."

We cannot live in society, hold a job, drive a car, travel, etc. without having these items. That is not realistic. We have to pay taxes and register with the government.

Your fear that these things will be our downfall are groundless. Born-again believers in Jesus Christ will be protected. We can't isolate ourselves from society and go live on a mountaintop. We are to be salt and light to our world. We are to be with people and share the Lord and the Gospel.

There are differences in escatology (end times) scenarios here on this website. I happen to believe in a pre-tribulational Rapture. I extend grace to BB who does not believe in it and I hope she will return the favor. Time will tell who is right. But either way, God's promises to His children are true and He is faithful. The things you describe are not evil in themselves. They are laying the groundwork for the Antichrist who will control the population. But that does not mean that we have to abstain from every form of digital method commonly used to conduct business and lead a normal life.

Scott Wasinski said...

Anon 7:52, There are a lot of people that do not like to entertain the idea that truth is absolute. Personal opinions and various views or private interpretations are usually more welcomed in today's godless society, than literal facts and evidences of soundness of education. Jesus Christ is the Truth. His Spirit leads us in all Truth.
For one to be born again, is to have the Spirit of Christ dwelling inside of them.
That is why the world hates us. We do not bend the knee to bovine scat.

1 Peter 1:20 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

That is the same Holy Ghost that indwells born-again believers. He is to be our Teacher of the scriptures, not John Darby, Margaret MacDonald, Scofield, David Jeremiah, Irwin Lutzer, Scott Wasinski, etc...

I do not have a fear of rejecting the verification system for financial transactions that the scriptures warn of. "For the love of money is the root of all evil." The pre-trib rapture fairy tale is nothing more than a lie. Period. The Word of God is not subject to any private interpretation or opinions of men. The Pre-trib rapture was fabricated in the 1800's and popularized in the schools of theology. Jesus specifically warned us to not be deceived; and to beware of the teachings of those that are degreed in the schools of religious education (i.e. Pharisees, Sadducees, etc...)

It is interesting that you stated that you think that born again believers will be "protected"

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Jesus, Himself said "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" Mountain top? I'm thinking the valleys of the mountains are going to be more inhabitable.....

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

The "protection" of the saint's lives only belongs to those that flee into the wilderness, according to the scriptures. Those that remain "the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ and keep His commandments" and are in society, will be killed.

Revelation 6:9-11 also show that the TRUE saints that remain in society will be killed. So your belief that "born again believers will be protected" is the exact opposite of what the scriptures clearly teach. There is no room for private interpretation.
The Pre-Fib is comfortable and warm and fuzzy and all... It does sound good. It has made many authors and teachers and preachers pretty wealthy, but it is not found anywhere in the Word of God. It is in direct opposition with soundness of the Word.

You see, currently you CAN live in society and make financial transactions without verifying your identification. Banks have begun the war on cash, and everything is transitioning to a system of digits in a computer, and electronic chip and pin, verification at the registers. You will see that I am right.

"Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter"

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Anonymous said...

Scott. No, God is not create evil as in wickedness. The word is used differently today then it was meant to in Isaiah 45:7 . Look up the word "evil" that is used in Isaiah 45:7, then look at the definition of the Hebrew root word,and you will find it lines up with definition number 3 in the websters 1828 dictionary. This dictionary came out about 30 years after the KJV revised edition we use today. I can't believe that people honestly believe that God is the author of both good and evil. What about the verse "God is not the author of confusion"? Wow......... E'VIL, a. e'vl. [Heb. to be unjust or injurious, to defraud.]

1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.

Some evil beast hath devoured him. Gen 37.

2. Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse; wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; an evil generation.

3. Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.

E'VIL, n. Evil is natural or moral. Natural evil is any thing which produces pain, distress, loss or calamity, or which in any way disturbs the peace, impairs the happiness, or destroys the perfection of natural beings.

Moral evil is any deviation of a moral agent from the rules of conduct prescribed to him by God, or by legitimate human authority; or it is any violation of the plain principles of justice and rectitude.

There are also evils called civil, which affect injuriously the peace or prosperity of a city or state; and political evils, which injure a nation, in its public capacity.

All wickedness, all crimes, all violations of law and right are moral evils. Diseases are natural evils, but they often proceed from moral evils.

2. Misfortune; mischief; injury.

There shall no evil befall thee. Psa 91.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself. Prov 22.

3. Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness; malignity.

The heart of the sons of men is full of evil. Eccl 9.

4. Malady; as the king's evil or scrophula.

E'VIL, adv. [generally contracted to ill.]

1. Not well; not with justice or propriety; unsuitable

Anonymous said...

BB. I forgot to put my name down in my last post. Sorry. Also is wanted to post this to prove after God created everything he saw it was "very good"........James.......Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Anonymous said...

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven..........James

Scott Wasinski said...

Anon 4:17 I don't think you are understanding the verse in Isaiah. You seem to have a different definition than the original manuscript. The Hebrew word for evil in Isaiah 45 is "ra'"

In context, it specifically means "ethical judgments of affliction." He is the only Creator of just blessings and cursings.

I shall not argue about what the scripture CLEARLY states. I will only declare the Words of God rightly divided and fitly spoken.

All throughout history, the Lord has brought great affliction upon those that choose to sin. It is the Lord God that created the curses of the which we see in the garden. To think that God is all "love" without justice (i.e. evil for sin and blessings for good) would be blasphemous and heretical. For it was the Father Himself that afflicted Jesus Christ as a recompense of reward for OUR SINS.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

It is heresy to teach that God does not create the outcome or consequences for our choices. Whether that outcome or consequence is good or evil, is determined, righteously according to our choices to do good or to do evil. The evil that we do is unethical disagreement to God's revealed desire for good. "Do not eat of the tree..." The evil that the Lord creates in response to our choice to sin, is His ethical judgments of affliction.

What part of this does not agree with the Word of God?

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Scott Wasinski said...

James, I have not found so great of a blatant disregard to the Word of God, than among those that have fallen for the pre-trib deception. It is a very strong delusion that will not allow them to see what the Word of God unambiguously states. Yes, Jesus said "AFTER the tribulation of those days...THEN (at that point in time) ...he shall send His angels to gather his elect... unto heaven...with the sound of the trumpet..." It is only people that truly want to believe lies that can so strongly disagree with the scripture.

The prophet Paul spoke of a "mystery "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This angel sounds that last trumpet in Revelation 10: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What part of "AFTER" and the "LAST DAY" and the "LAST TRUMPET" can people not understand? These all have specific and absolute time stamps!!! The people that swallow the Pre-Fib (mis)leaders, parrot theological excuses that directly oppose the literal words of the scripture.

It is a strong delusion. That is all I can say

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Anonymous said...

Scott, you are the one who is twisting scripture and trying to cram it down others' throats in a very unloving and definitely ungentle way. Your remarks smack of pride and I am sure you are aware of what God thinks of pride.

I was not looking for an argument about eschatology. I merely stated what I believe and then EXTENDED GRACE to those who might disagree. I did not resort to name calling or insults. The truth does not need to insult anyone. You have judged my heart. I am a born-again believer who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and I do have the Holy Spirit as my teacher. I do not stake my beliefs on any of the men you listed. I interpret the Word of God differently. I seek to honor Christ my Savior in my life although I realize I am just a sinner saved by grace. The Bible speaks highly of those who show humility and meekness.

Do you know how to treat other believers who do not agree with you in the way God says to? I could quote scripture after scripture that instructs us how to do so.
Your remarks are unkind and self-righteous and judgmental. I am not judging your heart, merely your fruit. It is possible to get one's point across without being unkind or insulting.

I firmly believe in absolutes and to dismiss me as a deluded unbeliever is certainly not biblical. BB does not believe in pre-trib but I still come on her website and value most of what she informs us about and do appreciate her ministry.
I don't argue with her about it but dwell on things we can agree on. I believe that Christians can have honest disagreements. It is her website and she can express her views and I respect that. I merely mentioned pretrib and it brought out a tirade from you. That is not Christ-like behavior, is it?

Anonymous said...

So, Scott, your saying that a 5 year old that has been afflicted with cancer, is afflicted because of their own sin. That's the consequence God chose to give them?What have you to say to that.

Scott Wasinski said...

Anion 12:12, I was addressing James. You call it "grace" to "agree to disagree", when it is a dangerously unbiblical philosophy that allows room for many contradictory, false teachings. With that evil philosophy, no one can reprove another, rebuke another or exhort another, neither can they suffer reproof, rebuke or exhortation. The implications are obvious when you actually read the Word and stop listening to false teachers.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

No one can be of one mind, one judgement, or one accord, if people "agree to disagree" you (and many others) have been influenced in a very subtle and evil way. That philosophy abounds in the godless culture of our time. Can you show any scriptures that support that worldview? You are calling it "grace" to accept different, opposing opinions, yet you are intolerant to what I have stated (which was clear scripture), because it directly opposes your opinion (which is false). How do you reconcile that conflict?

What we have here is one person (me) believes in absolute truth of the scriptures; and that sound, biblical doctrine is to be proclaimed and agreed among the brethren.

The other (you) believes in private interpretations and opinions that conflict with others, but agree to allow many contradictions to be acceptable among the brethren, without any real conflict resolution, just "gracefully" tolerating false teachings.

Just answer this to yourself: Which one is a biblical stance?

I will not even address you with your false accusations against me. Thanks for showing your heart.

Anon 12:26, Who created the curse of "death" in the garden when Eve and Adam did eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Was it God? Is cancer a part of that curse? You are bringing up a scenario that theologians do to try to find conflict through emotionally twisting a scenario to prove their own opinions and find fault in the scripture. That is the same thing that they did to Jesus all the time, because He declared the absolute Truth. I did not say that everything that comes upon everyone is a direct result of their own, personal actions. Sin is in the world and the curse of sin (death) will abound until after the thousand years is fulfilled and God creates a new heaven and a new earth. Then, there shall be no more curse. Rev 22. There truly is only One Creator. He creates the light and the darkness. He creates good and He creates evil. He will judge every man according to his own works.

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Anonymous said...

Scot. You claimed that God is both the author of evil and good. The people of the Calvinist persuasion define the word evil as wickedness, as though God is the author of both, which is completly wrong. You seemed to be defending that mode of thought, but I might be wrong. I was pointing out that the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 isn't what Calvinists believe it to be. Yes God can chose to bring "calamity" (evil as in Isaiah 45:7) as he chooses, and that verse in Isaiah is just one example. It's also a false doctrine to say God brings all the calamity that's in the world, and all that each person may experience. An example would be the comment one poster made about the " 5 year old girl with cancer". Does God bring about the tribulations that each believer encounters from time to time, or does this "present wicked world"? Is it God that brings about the "wearing out of the saints" that BB eluded to on a previous article? Of coarse not. God would not do those things to those he calls his children. There is "chastening" that God does, as Hebrews states, but our tribulations are not those chastenings. Paul speaks many times about our tribulations, but never puts the blame on God for them. Again, God is not the author of confusion. God is not "dualist" God as some seem to believe. If I read your post wrong on Isaiah 45:7, then I apologize sincerely. It did seem you were trying do defend that doctrine though.........James

SJLC said...

Unbelievers love to complain about God allowing consequences of evil to affect other people, because to them only the pain they see in this life "counts". Happily God does not have such a limited view, so when God promised that *everything* works for good to those who love Him, He was paying attention to the whole picture, a lot of which we do not understand yet.

How many of us would have thought of having God Himself be tortured to death in order to solve the sin problem? We would have been more like Peter, "No Lord, don't even say such things!"

Our Lord is both competent enough and loving enough that for every trial he allows, we would make exactly the same decision if only we understood the gain as well as the cost. Someday we *will* see that clearly, but right now it is time to be like the 5-year-old who understands that the torture of chemo is going to help her in some important way, because her parents said so.

That is not a hypothetical case btw, I've seen a 5 year-old perservere through chemo like a trooper, and eventually get cured...

SJLC said...

Forgot to mention that part of the plan designed for our eventual good is an earthly experience where the consequences of sin can spread to others. The 5 year-old's sin didn't cause cancer, any more than mass murder victims killed themselves. Somehow both are allowed in certain cases, because in those instances they turn into good results in the long run, just like an innocent man being tortured to death was turned into the greatest gift ever.

AW said...

Scott, I agree actually, but that word for 'evil' also means 'causing harm' (like "evil" beasts who devour). It is also used to refer to calamity/disaster, which is something God brought upon Israel and Judah in judgment. It is something He will allow to happen again, with the express purpose of revealing Himself to unbelieving Israel and reconciling the remnant. It's not in judgment of them this time around, but rather the apostate church and her kingdom (that northern kingdom of Babylon) that directly brings about this final 'calamity' or the time of Jacob's trouble.

But no, God does not choose evil for someone... Satan chose for himself, just as each person who ever lives makes their own choices and are judged for them. And to Anon 12:26, that's not the same thing as the sickness and death we all deal with in the world as a result of sin. It's unfair and causes enormous suffering, but was not how God intended things. If someone must be blamed, you could blame Adam, through whom sin and death entered the world. Jesus has rectified that, but we have not yet seen the completion of it and thus there is still suffering and calamity in the world.

Romans 5:12, 17 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ...For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

AW said...

Scott -- An fyi on Margret MacDonald, whom people so love to blame for contributing to 'pre-trib' actually mentioned the church still being present at the same time as antichrist. Even Manuel Lacunza's writings are technically classifiable as pre-millennial, post-tribulational!

Without getting too into the details, what do you suppose Jesus was specifically referring to in the Olivet discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) as 'great tribulation'? Are you positive that it refers to the same period as Daniel's '70th week'? From my own bible study, I'm not so sure it does... I think Jesus meant exactly what He said, that those in Judea, the southern part of the West Bank, will not survive the overflowing scourge if they do not flee immediately after the setting up of whatever is the abomination.

But those in the city of Jerusalem will have no way to escape. It will be a miracle that they even survive as long as they do. They are in imminent danger of being completely cut off, as we see in Zech 14, but it is Jesus' coming that allows their escape into the wilderness. If that understanding is accurate (so far it is the only understanding I have that all the separate scripture passages fit into without squeezing out or contradicting something else), then there are still 1260 days that the remnant are sheltered in the wilderness (I'm very sure that the woman of Rev 12 is Israel, I mean, Joseph's father Jacob/Israel immediately recognized the symbolism of the sun, moon, and 12 stars in Genesis 37:9-10). We also know that the 'time of Jacob's trouble' has not yet happened:

Jeremiah 30: 4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's [Israel] trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

What I find incredibly troubling is, if that understanding is accurate, how bad is the 'overflowing scourge' and 'great tribulation' that even the 42 months of the 11th horn/beast's kingdom not considered as bad (at least, from the Lord's words)? I have found myself praying much more for this coming remnant.

ps - this is not to say that true believers will not face persecution, they will and already are. I also believe that persecution will get much worse as the apostate church claims her dominion. But I don't think this or even being beheaded for not taking the mark are part of the 'great tribulation.' And in case anyone thinks of Revelation 7 and that great multitude which comes out of 'great tribulation'... that's exactly what I would expect if the resurrection takes place at Jesus' coming, which is precisely what ends 'great tribulation.'

I respect others' rights to opinions and views different from mine, but would hope that we would all be will willing to continue searching God's word. If I am willing to be corrected by Him on anything, then I know He will continue showing me the truth and refining my understanding. I know how many things I used to be so sure about, that it keeps me pretty humble. The last thing I want is to wrest the scriptures.

Anonymous said...

I am Anon 12:12. Scott, you have committed the sin of judging my heart. I did not judge yours. I described the fruit of your words expressed here. I well know the fruits - claiming to know it all and not willing to even consider that you might have something to learn from someone.

Other contributors on this blog show that they are willing to learn from others or at least RESPECT what their right to their opinion if it is different from what they believe. Believers are supposed to help one another, not tear each other apart. No man is an island - the Body of Christ is supposed to RESPECT one another and not think too highly of ourselves. It is a dangerous place to put oneself that one knows it all and everyone else is wrong especially when the Bible is viewed differently especially about end times.

The exception of course if the essentials, fundamentals of the faith such as the plan of salvation which is nonnegotiable as well as other bedrock mattere of doctrine.

Anonymous said...

You Calvinists are the ones who are unbelievers. You don't believe the account that God gave of his Son. Here's one example that Calvinists love to twist.

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." It's true no man can come to the Lord unless the Father draws him. This is a staple of Calvinist scripture twisting as we shall see.

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" was Jesus Christ lifted up from the earth? Yes, so he will draw ALL men unto him, but to hear a Calvinist wiggle his way out of this, he says "well, all doesn't really mean all". YES ALL MEANS ALL. Also I truly do suggest you look into the meaning of that word "evil" in the Hebrew word, it in FACT lines up with definition 3 from the websters 1828 dictionary. You people are on here to put doubt into people minds by teaching against what scripture says. Read the first and second epistles of John, they destroy every one of your imaginations concerning your false dualist "god". God is light, and in him is NO DARKNESS AT ALL. BB I can understand if you decide not to post this comment. I feel as though these false prophets need to be stopped, as Paul did the judaizers that brought false doctrine in among the Galatians........James

Anonymous said...

I've seen a five year old having chemo and dying of Leukemia and not understanding. Who said I was an unbeliever?
I don't get the feeling your the one I'd want around when I was struggling for answers like Job.

Scott Wasinski said...

Anon 5:06, I never claimed to know it all. You are obviously emotionally charged and have many things to say that are simply not true. Implying that I am somehow, become an island and that I think that I have all the answers. I would guess that you are a church goer. You obviously have been heavily influenced by the church teachings that promote a false sense of unity and have "respect" for things that are not true and have a disdain for absolutes, that do not gender questions.

For some reason, you decided to interject in my conversation which was addressing a specific individual that was NOT YOU.

I hope that you seek the face of the Lord and come out from the institutional church mindset, to hear the voice of Him that is Faithful and True. He does not want us to be carried about with every wind of doctrine.

"the essentials, fundamentals of the faith such as the plan of salvation which is nonnegotiable as well as other bedrock mattere of doctrine." Is the blanket form of unity in among the ecumenicals of churchianity. Even the various denominations do not agree as to what the gospel of Jesus Christ is, but they gather together in their local ministerial alliances to form a pact and false unity to come against any that will stand up for sound doctrine.
You have departed from the admonitions of the scriptures against such heresy.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes."

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Good bye.

Bible Believer said...

I agree with James's statement about tribulations. I do not believe God sends them. I have referred to having severe rare medical problems of a long lasting nature, I do not believe these things were "sent" by God but are the product of a fallen world, and also the sins of others--[medical neglect when I was young]. To think God sent me these troubles would be absurd.

When I say bad medical problems, I mean extreme horror movie stuff when I was at some of my worse situations too. Let me just say it this way, Job's skin sores, would have merely been one of my symptoms and was. There's cancer patients and people who have had other disfiguring diseases who have gone through just as bad or worse. I went deaf too though I have enough hearing left for conversation one on one with hearing aids. If I believed God did all this stuff to me, where He was the instigator, how could I love a God like that? He would be an abuser.

A 5 year old dying of cancer is not God's will or doing, it is the diseases of this fallen world, sometimes genetic mutation, or toxins or just even a cell going off the rails. Look at all the atheists who are horrified by Christians who think God sent us diseases and death, false theology has kept them away from the faith.

With the suffering of Jesus Christ, Jesus is God, so that was God taking on the sacrifice and suffering HIMSELF.

Remember I came out of Catholicism where they taught suffering saved. That is a philosphy that leads to the pit of hell.

With pretrib I make my opinion known, and I do think some believe in it who mean well though I hope they can see the truth, I know there other saved believers who still hold to it.

Bible Believer said...

I believe Romans 8 is one of the most abused verses on the planet. Wow need to write about this, I have a growing list, wish I had more time and stamina. The verse is a promise that everything will come out in the end, for a Christian and God's child but it does not mean that everything that happens to you is for a reason. There is a lot of bad bad bad stuff that happens to people. War, bombings, even beyond hideous things. Heard of one of those murder shows on TV where someone gets blown away? I am sure some Christians get murdered, and well, we are supposed to believe that is "everything working together for good"? Give me a break. Also that verse is used a lot in prosperity leaning churches, I faced abuse by someone who wanted to do a "deliverance" with me and thank God I escaped and this was online, but even there, I was told that bad things happened to be me because I was "bad" or "sinful", and it was absurd.

Are Christians as they get jailed and martryed going to be crying and thinking "Oh I have messed up now and been abandoned by God because "everything isn't working out for the good". There are things that happen on this earth that make no sense and have no sense and NO REASON. There are evil things that happen. God is not the author of it. And these things are not part of the "everything works for good" except in the fact that when you die as a believer you achieve eternal life with God. Yes the most abused verse on the planet in my book.

There are people I know who died hideous deaths. One friend who was a Christian literally had an ulcer open in her stomach, making her bleed to death. I see no purpose or "reason" behind that, she came to all good as a believer in heaven but that event happening in itself had no inherent "goodness" in it.

So there is no good in disease and death. No good results from death and disease IMO either. This world crushes some people to death, believing that are ill-fortunes and horrors are sent by God will lead to a bad place. It is devastating theology, and one the churches seem to sell far too often. God did not design human beings to have disease and death before the fall. The same would apply for evil rulers, they are not God's will.

Jesus healed people remember He never made anyone sick.

Matthew 8:1-3King James Version (KJV)

8 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.

2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

I agree with Scott, God never intended this suffering in the world. It came from sin.

Calvinists have that influence of Catholicism that believe suffering comes from God and is His will. [I am talking outside cases of chastisement]

Yes Job struggled too.

[and what I said about illness applies to evil leaders too in general...A country may be given judgement by God, but the wicked leaders themselves are their own sins and combined sins of those who chose them and elevated the wicked]

Anonymous said...

Scripture says in many places that men do evil "out of the lusts of their own hearts", not becasue they were "predestined" to be wicked. It also says God made man upright, but they sought out "many inventions". The book of Jeremiah says at least twice that the acts of the child sacrificing Baal worshippers never came into the mind of God. I'm stuck on this Calvinist issue. Sorry...James .......Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:....psalm 81:12, Ephesians 2:3, Ephesians 4:19 etc

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Anonymous said...

Scott you have me pegged so wrong. I am not ecumenical - in fact I disdain it. I believe in the Bible and the absolutes that are taught within. I believe in the true complete Gospel, not the false gospels of most churches. I am in a fellowship, but it is strictly based on the Bible - no compromise. I am not "emotionally charged", but have a few years under my belt. I have stood for truth and been persecuted for it many times. I am not a part of the "church system". You have misjudged me in so many ways. But it is only what God thinks that matters. He knows my heart and He is my Judge. I obviously offended you by my words, I ask forgiveness. I will not comment any further.

Anonymous said...

People don't know how to hold the tension between what seems like contradictory passages in the bible. I think this is partly because of our bad education system. I am guilty of it myself. All the past issues like Calvinism and others are from this error. Is Christ God or Man. He is both... I could go on but you get the picture.

Anonymous said...

What does Jesus Christ being both God and man have to do with Calvinists claiming God is the author of good and wicked? Not understanding the comparison. Total depravity is totally unbiblical as well. The whole "TULIP" system can be picked apart through scripture. I also like how a jab was made at people's intellect, but was justified by lumping yourself in there. Please elaborate on your claims that because of a bad educational system, And a lack of discernment, Calvinism is justified......James

Anonymous said...

James your reply to Anon at 6:39 a.m. was spot on. What it boils down to is that the TULIP is a false gospel just as much as the gospel of Roman Catholicism and others. You are right, intellect really has nothing to do with it. We understand through the light given to us through the Holy Spirit, not the education we have received by a secular system.

What I have found about Calvinists is that they generally pride themselves in their intellect and are highminded. They love to debate and argue. They see themselves as superior - they have been chosen while the other chumps are down the tubes straight to hell.

They are so deceived and deluded.

Anonymous said...

James- In no way was I justifying Calvinism. I said I had a bad education. I did. The JW's are an example of not seeing Christ as both man and God.I was trying to say,bad theology comes from not being able to hold the tension between what seems like passages in the bible that say contradictory things, Therefor people latch on to one theology or another.Instead of holding the tension. I am not good at explaining things, I admit. But there is no good reason for you to go on the attack.I was not making a Jab at peoples intellect. I was saying our educational system is lacking. Clearly I'm not that intelligent myself. I don't explain things well. I apologize for that. Maybe I just shouldn't comment. But I felt lead to write that.I'll try to google what I am trying to get at and find someone who can say it with more clarity.
It's comments like this that make me want to give up on Christianity when I am just hanging on to my faith. If your so lead by the holy spirit why did you not sense my meaning before attacking me.
Oh, and I was the one that commented how I liked your comment that BB used in her post article.

Anonymous said...

I hope that helps clarify. I don't know anything more than that article, so it's not an endorsement of the website. Hope it's more clear than I was. I personally thought it was interesting. I'm O.K if you do not .

Anonymous said...

Anon at 5:57. I apologize, but I was not going on the attack. You used the word "people", but did not explain who these people were, I took it as people posting on this article. Again I apologize.....James

Anonymous said...

James - No problem. I don't write well, and my mind is kind of fuzzy. Thanks for the apology.

AW said...

Sometimes people create a 'false dilemma' where only 2 alternatives are considered when neither one is the truth. I humbly ask that you consider if this is part of what's going on here. No one is defending Calvinism's erroneous belief that God is responsible for all evil. Yet it's treated like these are the only options, that God is either responsible for ALL or NONE of it, regardless of the many Bible passages indicating that the Lord brings death and disaster as part of judgment.

To ignore all those scriptures because it doesn't fit what we think sounds right isn't any different than the Emergents who can't fathom God's wrath at sin and so make Jesus' atonement on the cross an offering/ransom to Satan. Or the Universalists who just can't imagine a God who would condemn unbelievers to hell and so believe that everyone gets saved in the end. Or the Open Theists, who in rejecting the Calvinists' error, claim God does not know the future.

James, this is not meant rudely, but did you even read the many Bible passages included in my previous comments? Or were you too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming 'CALVINIST!' :-/ Your reference to 2 Cor 5:21 implies that those who think God does bring 'evil' or disaster are imputing sin to God's character. Was it sinful of God to bring plagues upon Egypt? Or when God killed all the firstborn?

Ex 12:12-13 - For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Was it sinful when God struck David's child with Bathsheeba?(2 Sam 12:13-15) Have you read the Blessings and Curses God instituted under His covenant with Israel(Lev 26 & Deut 28) or the many places the prophets talk about God fulfilling these curses on Israel & Judah, are they calling God sinful? Is it sinful for Jesus to open the seals, sending out His four winds to bring judgment, including famine, war, and death?

No one here has argued that God is responsible for every last bit of suffering and calamity that ever happens, but you must not ignore the numerous places God Himself says He does bring calamity and judgment. I don't relish the idea of a wrathful God. I wrestled with these same scriptures. God has allowed much wickedness and injustice because He has given people space to repent. But there is a point when He says no more and brings judgment, affecting everyone.

Ez 21:3-5 - Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth My sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall My sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth My sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.

Is it sinful of God's 2 witnesses to devour their enemies by fire, withhold rain, and smite the earth with plagues as often as they want? Good grief, even Jesus treads the winepress of God's wrath! Does that sound like 'no, Jesus only ever healed people'? It's horrifying to me, but God is both just and merciful. He will never be one without the other & I must trust that.

Please be willing to read through the Bible as a comprehensive whole, as the word of God which does not contradict itself. When you come across seemingly-contradictory passages, ask Him to show you the truth. It really does all fit together, but may not be what we initially assume sounds right. But do not dismiss entire passages of scripture because it contradicts what you've already decided is so.

Bible Believer said...

Calvinism is a path way to hell. I consider it akin to Catholicism too.

Bible Believer said...

Anon 1:55, those would be times of chastisement and judgement would they not? [special events against the seared wicked. The idea though that God would bring evil against His own children though is against the gospel. This world is a wicked place. How many could hold faith in God as "Abba" believing that evil came to them from their own "Father" in heaven?

Scott Wasinski said...

AW, very well put. Again, thank you for your insightful contributions. People have been programmed to not fear the Lord with true fear. They do not tremble at the hearing of His Word, nor do they consider the gravity of what they read. Every single Word of God is pure and to understand His wrath, and the severity of every Word should cause all men to fall down before Him. Yes, He shall draw His sword from His sheath and shall destroy all flesh.

Isaiah 66:1-5 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? Acts 7:49
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Acts 7:50
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."

We should all be humble and contrite before Him, seeking to learn of Him and be willing to address all contradictory beliefs. His Word is pure and perfect in every way.

Scott Wasinski said...

Oh crud! I forgot my tag

"I'm not a robot (anymore;)"

AW said...

But BB, how could I expect to be exempt from the effects of judgment? I can trust God regardless of what happens, such as my debilitating health problems and division within my own family because of wicked and abusive people. God has used these things for my good even though I'm aware that it is the direct consequence of evil choices other people have made.

But when God gives people over to delusion, they will at some point begin persecuting the real believers... do I think that is punishment from God on true believers? No, and here's where I think we are getting our communication lines crossed. Sometimes God brings consequences for our own sin(like with David), but other times, bad things happen to people who didn't do anything to deserve it (what Jesus addressed when He asked the people if they though the men killed by the falling tower must have been great sinners).

When God brings judgment on the whole world, a time I believe we are now entering, everyone feels the effects of it, including the righteous, the innocent, the oppressed, the powerless. I do believe (because of all those scriptures cited above) that God does raise up the Wicked to accomplish this judgment (remember, End-time Babylon is a golden cup in the Lord's hand that He makes the whole earth drink).

Does that mean God is judging or punishing His real followers? No, of course not. His raising up the wicked is judgment on those who are deceived, those who do not love the truth, those who love covetousness, and those who use the Lord's name a cloak to hide their evil. (His raising up of the wicked is also judgment UPON the wicked, who doesn't see it yet). But if believers are here for this (which is what I understand your position to be), then we will be affected and even targeted by this evil.

When God brings judgment upon His house first, that is upon all that calls itself "His." It's not just the true believers, but all the chaff as well (and many don't even realize that's what they are, because they're serving a false christ). Part of God's judgment in the last days is separating out of His kingdom all things that offend (Matt 13), but there is a short time period that these deluded reprobates rise to power.

Here's another thing I think we are miscommunicating on, because the scriptures in which God says He raises up the wicked, the beast, the king of Babylon, aren't in judgement of the real believers, but rather in judgment on the apostates, then Israel (with the purpose of having them finally turn to the Lord), then on the King of the South, and the rest of the world before God destroys Babylon near the end.

Do you see what I mean? ...That God doesn't do this to intentionally punish His real children, but rather to accomplish the remain prophecies about the reconciling of Israel and the judgement of the rest of the world. But I think all of us realize that as this rises, we will be increasingly persecuted, even killed by people who think they are serving God.

So I guess I would conclude that God doesn't bring 'evil' or disaster on believers willy-nilly, but that as He brings judgment on the rest of the world, we will be affected by it and must trust Him through it. And from the many scriptures I've read, it does seem that God raises up the wicked to accomplish this judgment (though again, this is also a judgment on them, though they do not realize it). I hope that makes sense.

Anonymous said...

AW, you say "So I guess I would conclude that God doesn't bring 'evil' or disaster on believers willy-nilly, but that as He brings judgment on the rest of the world, we will be affected by it and must trust Him through it."

I am curious how you believe God is going to protect believers through this time of mass executions and inability to obtain the basic necessities of life? If one is a professing Christian, one will be executed. The way that will be revealed is that the Christian will not take the mark. Has it ever occurred to you that the way Noah and his family escaped the flood was to be sealed inside the ark? Can you see the significance of that in modern times and the possible application? Who or what will be the "ark" of safety?

Anonymous said...

The wrath of God abides on those who do not believe...James .... John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

Anonymous said...

Revelation 9 says those who have the seal of God on their foreheads will not be harmed......James ....revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them

AW said...

Anon 9:45, I have no idea how you got that understanding from my comment in light of everything I clarified therein. I was trying to clarify for BB that I agree with her that these judgments are not sent specifically on believers as either punishment for some 'secret sin' they supposedly committed or because God must be 'teaching' them a lesson.

But how exactly did you get "God is going to protect believers" from all the effects of His judgment on the world, when I specifically said:

- "When God brings judgment on the whole world, a time I believe we are now entering, everyone feels the effects of it, including the righteous..."

- "But if believers are here for this [the raising up of the wicked] (which is what I understand your position to be), then we will be affected and even targeted by this evil."

- "But I think all of us realize that as this rises, we will be increasingly persecuted, even killed by people who think they are serving God."

- " He brings judgment on the rest of the world, we will be affected by it and must trust Him through it."

And trusting the Lord through this also means being faithful unto death, however it comes.


Anonymous said...

What I don't understand, after reading these comments, is why just because someone says God is Sovereign and in complete control, they are immediately labeled by most of you a Calvinist? that is so strange to me...I believe God is sovereign and I am definitely not a Calvinist.....this is very concerning - I believe sin and death entered the world through Adams disobedience, that we ARE to be obey, that when we don't God can send us calamity to cause us to turn, that is a pattern throughout ALL of scripture. God did not call EVERYONE out of Egypt, it was a select group of people, there was a mixed multitude that followed - but Pharaoh didn't, nor his household, nor his army.. I believe this blog is dangerous - I am concerned this is another Jesus that is taught on this blog and at this point, even though I come here quite often, I am going to go with discernment and remove myself from it.

AW said...

Scott, that passage from Isaiah 66 is one of my favorites! In it the Lord talks about the true temple and the acceptable sacrifice of a broken and contrite spirit (Psalm 51:17). He then talks about the outward form of 'obedience' (after all, all those ordinances were specifically commanded by God), yet God sees the heart that has chosen its own way (even if that heart has deceived itself). That is as offensive to the Lord as all the things He specifically prohibited (strangling, unclean offerings like pigs and dogs, idolatry, and manslaughter).

Isaiah 29:13-14 - Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

And here we see the same end result -- God giving them over to delusion, just as He says in Isaiah 66:4. Of course, they think they are doing God a service by persecuting the real believers in the name of 'glorifying' God.

(With Biblebeliever's allowance) There is a specific nature to God's judgments and the delusion He brings as part of His 'Recompense & Vengeance', a sort-of 'Let the Punishment Fit the Crime' if you will. Also relevant is the method by which God separates His true followers from those who have departed from Him in their hearts (even if they lie to themselves and God... He sees the heart!). This is the Law of Jealousy which God gave Moses in Numbers 5, and this is what I meant in my 1:50 comment when I mentioned the judgment God brings on His house first and His separating out of His kingdom all things that offend.

You see, if the Husband suspected infidelity, he would take his wife before the priest and the priest would have the wife drink 'the bitter water than causes the curse.' It didn't matter if the wife was innocent or guilty, she still had to drink the cup! But the one who had been faithful would be free from the curse and be fruitful, while the unfaithful wife would have the water turn bitter and become a curse among the people. I do think this has an application to God's people now, and if we have not been unfaithful, then we can trust Him knowing we will be 'cleared' of the charge. However, for the very same reason Cain killed Abel (because his offering was acceptable and Cain's was not), the ones who are given over will hate and persecute us (just like Isa 66:5 warns us, as well as promising us that the Lord will appear to our joy. We will be proved faithful in the end.)

So to tie back into the main subject of the post, God does not bring evil upon His true saints for punishment or 'lessons', but His judgments do directly affect us because He raises up 'the Wicked' as part of His judgment upon the entire world (remember that rod of God's anger and the one into whose hand God places His sword -- the King of the North/Babylon... Babylon, that land of double bitterness/rebellion... 'marathaim' - Jer 50:21).

Anonymous said...

Calvinists believe God is "sovereign" and in complete control, and deny the free will of man. Is God in control when a person murders another? Did he cause this to happen as Calvinists believe? Of coarse not. Scripture repeatedly speaks of the free will of man. Obviously God can intervene and do as he pleases, but to say he controls the actions of everyone, and orchestrates everything everyone does is a dangerous belief. The word sovereign in terms of Calvinism does in fact mean these things. the "god" of Calvinism makes one man a believer, and the next a monstrous pedophile and singled out for a reign of terror and subsequent damnation for no other reason than its his pleasure to do so. It completely rules out the influence of sin and wickedness from our adversary, who as scripture says is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. It also rules out the sin and wickedness that men have in their hearts to commit wicked crimes. People take instances of certain things happening in scripture and try to apply it to everyone. if the "god" of Calvinism is in complete control, then he is a failure, as he has allowed innocent children to starve to death, and be harmed by monstrous perverts. Thankfully the God of the bible isn't the god of Calvinism. Calvins god is more like Satan, who's goal is to steal, kill, and destroy.....James

Anonymous said...

AW. God does chasten/chastise His own to discipline them, but it is for their own good. The Israelites were punished for their rebellion quite severely and evil men were used in the process.

Bible Believer said...

One problem here, is those who believe all the evil happens in this world for a reason. No that is not true. I do not believe that all evil will be for good either. I have seen young people die for no reason, two people of conscience even in my own family were destroyed by the wicked and died very young. The wicked outlasted the good. It is such an extreme situation, I would blow everyone's mind if I told the story here. What am I to think of that? That God long ago abandoned us all. My health was destroyed by an early age, by the wicked. Am I to see "good" in this. I do not.

Did that have a "good" behind it? No, it was the actions of the wicked. I cannot accept God "sending" evil kings, God knows the evil kings are coming and warns in Prophecy but He did not "produce" them, they had free will. The Best Life stuff is rife, and goes deeper then the surface prosperity gospel nonsense, if Christians are taught God will rescue them in THIS WORLD [isn't Pre-Trib based on this?] and then no help comes and they face the death how will their faith remain intact especially as times gets worse. What of real Christians who died under the lash of Rome, and then who are dying now where families are destroyed and entire lives turned to ashes? Any "good" in that?

That belief is dangerous where one is taught that God will bring people object horrors, to bring "good" out of it. Will it shock some if I say this world is a Satanic snake pit, and many of us suffer out of Adam and Eve's fall and just the evils done by wicked people? No good in it. Our reward and the recompense will be in eternity NOT HERE. Does that shock some?

Bible Believer said...

I even had a false deliverance person teach me that God would protect people in the Trib if they were faithful. She told me things like God would "hide" people supernaturally. What about all those Foxes Martyrs did they die and have their families destroyed because they lacked faith? Why didn't God "rescue them"? According to her theology they were all failed Christians. I am sure she is a disinformationist now.

My own life is sinking to ashes. I haven't had to do it yet, my home is still intact, but homelessness could loom. Yes I would take some offered help here if it comes to that, but my husband's health is being destroyed, my own was gone years ago. For us that meant no children, the "future" as far as this world looks, look pretty dark. Even then many more have suffered far worse or died younger. People are starving, people are being imprisoned. While America prospered better then most places for decades that is ending though the world is full of such immense suffering to make us all be in horror.

Yes there is some judgement, but if people believe that their sufferings are God produced, how will they maintain a loving relationship with God? If a normal earthbound loving father would protect and defend his children, what of endless abuses and horrors, that people say are "God sent"?

The Calvinist god is a scary cruel narcissistic father, ready to beat you to a pulp and say you will never be enough.

He is a destroyer, and yes there for reigns of terror and horror. He is the "god" of destruction and cruelty. Doesn't the gospel of John tell us that God is love? How does this concide with God supposedly being the producer of Satanic Luciferians [the evil kings] who will bring endless horrors to life? Human free will is the destructive force where they have chosen EVIL.

I struggle myself lately wondering why my own life has turned so bad, so many losses, and if people were to tell me God did this to you, what would I think of God then? Would I have a loving relationship with HIm? I'd probably go in the corner crawl into a ball and not stop crying and my faith would be cinders.

Bible Believer said...

I see tons of atheist boards where people left behind God saying "he" is so cruel.

They see human suffering and are horrified, and well, when Christiandom preaches stuff like God protects His own so you suffering people get what you deserve and evil kings are sent by God, for more wars and dead children, how do you expect people to react? The antichrist teachings are leading to the destruction of faith. Just look at the religious right, they push a "monster god" that hates the poor, and defends the endless oppressions in this nation, and worldwide. So wonder that pastor's son at the old IFB I was in praised war and killing. I still want to throw up.

Yes like James says if the god of Calvinism is in complete control then he is a failure and he is a cruel monster like these atheists charge...

Remember bruce gerencser became a Calvinist, I believe there was the root cause of his later atheism.

The "god" of Calvinism is a monster to me too.

If I believed these things about God, I don't, I would have walked away too. The suffering of my own life if produced by "god" would mean that would be a "god" I could not love.

Bible Believer said...

I do not believe we will suffer under God's judgement. God prophesized the evil kings, and leaders and other wicked, and they will be here, but GOD DID NOT CREATE THEIR EVIL. They chose that in free will. In fact being saved keeps us from the judgement of God but it does not keep us from the natural effects of a fallen satanic world. So if we are suffering, I do not see God as the producer of it. If Trump destroys America or civil war comes here, or other wars, God did not mandate these wars, destruction and other evils. God knew the future of these wicked men. These men [and women] who are seared are already lost to hell. Be careful of the Calvinist views of judgement too. Does God send hurricanes and the rest to kill even the innocent or are these just the natural outcome of a sin-filled world? Here one is dabbling with basically saying "god" comes to kill and destroy.

The question of suffering keeps many away from God. Many struggle with the idea that God has sent their sufferings. Many are taught their sufferings have come about from lack of faith or that they are not "good enough" Christians. The god that brings wicked kings does not conicide with a God that is love.

1 John 4:7-10King James Version (KJV)

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

King James Version (KJV)

Anonymous said...

BB no one here is saying that God creates evil ruler's evil. Nor is anyone here saying that they don't have free will. But the bible is quite clear that AS A RESULT of people's FREE WILL that God does use the consequence of that free will to further cast judgement.

Anonymous said...

When I think of the way things will be during the time before the return of Christ, I think of how it was during the inquisitions. They endured their "tribulation" knowing a "better resurrection" awaited them. They wasn't waiting for God to come a save them. He could if it was his will of coarse, but it's not, and scripture attests to this. We are no better than the millions of martyrs that died for the sake of the gospel in times past. There is no pre tribulation "rapture". Jesus Christ returns one time only, and that is on "the last day". The same day the martyrs of the past will recieve their eternal reward. I don't believe that people during the inquisitions were awaiting a "secret rapture". That doctrine wasn't invented yet....Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

Anonymous said...

If I believed Calvinism was true, I too might not have started seeking after God. I have a nerve disease, and if I believed Calvinism, then I might have thought I was predestined for hell, or that God had forsaken me. I'm so thankful that these were issues I was studying while seeking after God, and that I didn't believe the first "preacher" I heard on the subject. Even though I hurt constantly, I still feel as though I've been blessed......James

Anonymous said...

BB you said: The Calvinist god is a scary cruel narcissistic father, ready to beat you to a pulp and say you will never be enough.

You are so right. It is a false god and a false perverted gospel.

I am so sorry you and your husband are in such dire straits. But you are right, God did not create the evil in this world - we live in a fallen world and must suffer the consequences. However, our God does promise us that He will never leave us or forsake us and He will be with us through everything we endure and He will bring good out of it for us. We don't always know how that plays out, but we know God is true to His promises.

God is in ultimate control of this world and its events in the bigger picture. He used Pharaoh to free the Israelites and He can use anyone to further His purposes. But he does not violate the free will of man as He created him/her.

I do hold to pretrib, but I do not view it as an escape. It is my hope and I do look forward to the Lord calling us home. This world is a wicked place and who would not want to go be with the Lord when He decides it is time - but until then we occupy and go about His business and endure all the pain and suffering of this earth. He can use suffering as a witness to the world when a believer endures it and maintains faith. I agree with you completely - God is not the author of evil of any kind. He cannot be and be God. We may not understand why we go through the things we do such as your situation, but we can know that God is good and He will always do what is best for us. Sometimes He spares and sometimes he allows.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will comfort you give you strength to endure and provide your needs. Someday there will be no more suffering and I think it is okay to yearn for that day and for the Lord Jesus to set things right. And the day that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord and give Him the honor that He truly deserves.

I know you do not agree, but I do not believe the Bible teaches that believers will go through the Great Tribulation. There are tribulations and the Lord even told us that we should expect them. But the GT will be a whole new ball game. Noah and his family were saved by the ark and I believe we will be saved by the Ark of safety. I don't think any of us can even imagine how horrible the GT will be. Many people have been martyred in the past and many suffer under repressive regimes today, but this is going to be on an entirely different level.

I don't argue with people who do not agree. I hope I am welcome on this blog even though I do hold to pretrib rapture. I don't like it when it is called a false doctrine and such, but I understand and don't take offense. I don't believe in Margaret McDonald or the usual suspects regarding this. I believe it is in the Word of God. But now we see through a glass darkly and time will tell. I don't want to see a division over this. We have to concentrate on getting out the Gospel and the truth and contending for the faith no matter what happens.

Anonymous said...

What about when Jesus fed the five thousand with the loaves and fishes. Did he say to make sure everyone of them had a job or were looking for work. Did he eyeball them to see if they were lazy or if they were trying to get free food?

Anonymous said...

Oh my - what a misinterpretation of this miracle! The people followed the Lord and they could not get away to get food to eat. It also was an opportunity for the Lord to show God's provision. These people were not beggars!! He saw their need and met it. They were not there to beg for food!

Anonymous said...

Yes, mock me for taking something out of context. This is why I am questioning christianity.
The attitude of it's followers. Yes you are smarter than me.
Proverbs 16:18

Anonymous said...

Anon at 11:38 a.m. I was not mocking you. You were the one who was mocking when you threw that into the mix.

If you are questioning Christianity, you are questioning Christ Jesus, not me or any other Christian who is simply a sinner saved by God's grace and mercy. Look to Jesus Christ, not to men. He is the perfect One, His Word is infallible, people are. If you are looking to people, they will disappoint. The Lord will never disappoint or fail.
Please look to Him and His Word alone.

Anonymous said...

Actually there were people that followed Jesus Christ for the free food.....John 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Anonymous said...

In John 6. After Jesus told them "except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" most left Jesus think he was teaching cannibalism, as it says Jesus asked them if they were offended by his words. The context of this chapter goes back to John 1 were it tells us Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. He affirms this in verse 63 telling them his words weren't meant in a physical sense as Roman Catholics believe today. He tells them "it is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, the WORDS I say unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". The only ones who remained with the Lord was the Twelve disciples, and "one was a devil" (judas). Jesus then asks the if they will also leave, then Peter said "to whom shall we go, you have the WORDS of eternal life".....James........John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

AW said...

Anon 6:39 (11/26), you are quite right and scripture repeatedly attests to this. It is in God's MERCY that He does so, with the intent of them repenting and returning to Him. Even GOD's name, Jehovah Makkeh, means 'the Lord who strikes' (Ez 7:9) which HE gave when talking about the judgment HE was bringing upon His own people:

Ezekiel 7:8-9 - "Now will I shortly pour out My fury upon thee, and accomplish Mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations. And Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the Lord that smiteth."

Anon 8:01 (11/24), you have a point worth of prayer and consideration as well.

Bible Believer said...

Yes thinking of the inquisitions is interesting. I guess if that was happening now they would be judged for "not having their lives" together and suffering poverty and decimation of their lives. The churches would tell them to conform and look what trouble you are making. They kept the faith even as the worse happened to them. What is happening now to people as we are all indoctrinated to expect happiness and success in THIS WORLD? I can't go with pre-trib rapture either. Some have presented Pre-Wrath to me but that verse saying "For thy sake we are killed all the day long" makes it clear to me, that escaping tribulation in this world isn't always the outcome for the Christian. I know I need to voice this in a way that is understandable but in false Christianity goodness in THIS life has been equated to goodness in the person.There too the slaughter is not mandated by God but the devil's disciples.

Bible Believer said...

When I think of the way things will be during the time before the return of Christ, I think of how it was during the inquisitions. They endured their "tribulation" knowing a "better resurrection" awaited them. They wasn't waiting for God to come a save them. He could if it was his will of coarse, but it's not, and scripture attests to this. We are no better than the millions of martyrs that died for the sake of the gospel in times past. There is no pre tribulation "rapture". Jesus Christ returns one time only, and that is on "the last day". The same day the martyrs of the past will recieve their eternal reward. I don't believe that people during the inquisitions were awaiting a "secret rapture". That doctrine wasn't invented yet....Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

I lived in a very Calvinist area in my 20s. I remember the "Christians' of that time and they were cold and judgmental and seemed to equate financial success to goodness and appearing "proper", they were even worse then todays evangelical Quiverfuls. I almost died of an asthma attack and went to hell at the age of 21, because of false Calvinist gospels and that delayed my conversion for some time. I consider Calvinism so harmful I can't even begin to explain. At the time being raised in a wicked family, I thought I was "not good enough" for God, and the Calvinists certainly didn't help with that feeling. Thank God by then I started reading and studying the Word for myself even when I was the UUs. Yes Calvinism anon is a perverted gospel.

I know I have paid for my faith already in this world. [literal money too] The connected family wasn't too happy with me long ago.

I won't separate over someone who is pretrib, I am glad you do not see it as escape. I agree with you the earlier God can get us out of here the better. LOL I agree with you that God is not the author of any evil. Thanks for your prayers for comfort. I do not understand a lot of what I am going through, even the 20 years of crazy health problems. At this point trying to understand it may be a lost cause, I need to just keep the faith. Yes the day when we will no longer have suffering is a day we all await eagerly in being with God. I have considered the "Pre-Wrath" positions as possible.

I agree about the loaves and fishes, some of the Republican-bots would scream socialism if they were today and shut it all down. Who cares if they were beggars or not? I don't know. They probably were most likely a mixture of people who had chosen to follow and listen to Jesus and were merely hungry and far away from home.

And Jesus fed the 'moochers' too.

there are some verses about not grilling beggars, wish I could remember exactly where.

Yes that verse disproves the Catholic Eucharist too, I know I have used it before when speaking to Catholics. It is the spirit not the flesh.

Bible Believer said...

anon: 9:20 why are you questioning Christianity?

Don't look at the churches, we would have all fallen away then.

Look to God's Word.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:01 (11/24):

I have been a long time reader and sometimes lurker at this blog. I do not agree with BB's eschatology, but I still come to the blog and do not write it off because there is a lot of good information and she stands for the fundamentals of the Bible.

The Sovereignty of God is a buzzword with Calvinists. Naturally people are going to think one is Calvinist if one uses the word in a certain way. There is a right way and a wrong way to use the word. When it is used in conjunction with the statement that God is in complete control of everything, that is a red flag and sounds very Calvinistic.

Maybe you are leaning more in that direction than you think?

Anonymous said...

Anon at 4:02. There's a problem with the word "sovereign". It's not in the bible! So people add whatever definition they please to fit their doctrine. To me "sovereign" is a word used by Calvinists. God certainly does as he pleases, does this mean "sovereign" to you? As stated, the word is not in the bible, so we can't allow the bible to define it for us......James

Anonymous said...

the end of my comment was worded wrong. I meant to say since the word sovereign is not in scripture, then the bible does not define it. Sorry. I surely didn't mean that we can't allow the bible to define words because, that how we are suppose to define words used in scripture.......James

Anonymous said...

James, the meaning of the word "sovereign" is the quality or state of being sovereign, or of having supreme power or authority.

The Lord Jesus Christ is our King, the ruler of everything. God is all-powerful, the Alpha and the Omega.

Just because the word "sovereign" is not in the Bible does not mean that invalidates the word. The meaning of sovereign is definitely an attribute of God.
Just because an exact word is not in Scripture does not mean that the meaning is not there.

Anonymous said...

like I said, it's obvious that is not the definition Calvinists use. To them "sovereign" means something different. You're right it does not "invalidate" the word, but since the word is not found in the bible, why use it? All it does is bring confusion. Scripture offers plenty of words that justly defines God. If you told a Calvinist the word is not found in the bible, they probably wouldn't believe you at first. Scripture calls Jesus Christ "King of kings". That title is less confusing as "sovereign", as it's what scripture actually calls him.......James

Anonymous said...

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, NOT IN WORDS WHICH MANS WISDOM TEACHETH, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.........James

Anonymous said...

Calvinists do believe that God is all-powerful, and all the words in the Bible that describe God. That is why the doctrine is so deceptive. There are things we can agree are true in their beliefs. HOWEVER. we part ways when they mischaracterize God's as the only one true God when they say that we do not have the ability to make a choice to receive Christ. Also the other "petals" of their "TULIP" are false doctrine. And that is the core of their belief system - so we can say they are rotten to the core.

There are adjectives or nouns in our English language that we use that are not in the Bible but accurately describe the meaning of words in the Bible. Yes, it is best to quote Scripture but we can expound upon Scripture in a correct way by using other words. We should just be careful that we are speaking correctly. On the other hand we should be careful about not getting too legalistic or as the Bible puts it, "strain at a gnat."

Anonymous said...

I question christianity not just because of church people, but because of a lot of the people who comment on here. I have seen as much bullying as in churches, and been ignored even when I mentioned I needed prayers just like people can ignore you in churches. I don't believe most of you people are any different than the church people you claim to be above.
Everyone thinks they are the real christian. They have the true faith. Get over yourselves.I have.

Anonymous said...

im sorry if you feel I'm "legalistic" by wanting to use the Word that God gave us, instead of a man made title that means different things to different people. I believe God when he says he's "not the author of confusion".......James

Scott Wasinski said...

Anon 4:13, There is a battle going on in the spiritual realm and many people have been deceived by many influences upon the only true faith of the only true God. It is good to question all things (including Christianity). The foundation of the faith comes from the Word of God which He has preserved from the beginning of time. He does not ever change, nor does His Word. The Lord that created the heaven and the earth does not ever require unreasonable "blind faith." He wants people to actually use the reason and the logic that He put in us to be able to discern the Truth in all things. There are no contradictions between His Word and the observable world that we live in, because He created all things.

There is a necessity to contend for the faith and to stand firm on the Word of God, rebuking false doctrine and heresy in these days, because so many false teachings have crept into "Christianity" and the people are highly divided (as it was prophesied to be so in the last days).

You said that you had mentioned that you needed prayers. My guess is that you need something that man cannot provide, but you want the hand of the Lord to be revealed for some need. I do not know what your particular situation is that you want prayers for. God truly does know and I can tell you from my own experience that if you pray with sincerity of heart unto the Father, in the name of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ who was crucified for your sins and has risen ascending into heaven to be the Mediator between you and Him (because our sins separate us from the Lord, but His blood reconciles us unto Him, through faith). He will hear the cry of the humble and the broken. He will hear from you if you pray unto Him in secret, He shall reward you openly. Consider the sparrows. They do not plant seeds, nor do they harvest and gather food for the winter, yet your heavenly Father feeds them, daily. How much more important are you to Him, than they are? Much more important. Seek Him. I will make mention of you in my prayers and I do hope that you will not throw out the baby with the bath water.

I recommend reading the Authorized King James Bible, because it is the only English translation that we have from the original tongues of the prophets. The scriptures were given by men of God that were moved by the Holy Spirit of God to write down every single punctuation as He gave them to write. There is no private interpretation of any prophecy of the scriptures. Read it for yourself and do pray unto the One that is more than able to meet your needs. He really does look down upon the sons of men seeking to show Himself strong on our behalf. He will never share His glory with any other, so to look unto man for something you need from God really is a misplaced hope.
Let God be true and every man a liar.

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Anonymous said...

James, you seem defensive rather than focusing on the areas of agreement. I did not say you were legalistic. I merely pointed out that one should guard against going too far which could lead to legalism. Legalism is a killer of grace. It is a mystery to me that you cannot agree with this. I am not the enemy. We have a common enemy, do we not?

Anonymous said...

I've not once hinted at salvation being by anything other than grace through faith on Jesus Christ, so I don't see where "legalism" is coming from. I never said the law saves. I mentioned the fact that the word "sovereign" is not mentioned in the bible, and using it can lead to confusion, then the word "legalism" gets thrown in my direction which is fine. We are all entitled to opinions. I just stated that using words which the bible uses is better than using "words which mans wisdom teacheth". I'm not being defensive, just commenting on the legalism which was undeniably thrown in my direction. It's good to have meaningful discussions. James

Anonymous said...

Thank-you Scott for your encouragement.I will always think of you and the Van Morrison song"Cleaning windows". Such a catchy tune!
Anon 4:13

Scott Wasinski said...

Anon 4:13/3:51 You're welcome. I am glad that I encouraged you. I hope that I am able to help people see just a little clearer, whether by cleaning windows in real life or spiritually removing the dirt;) I am guessing that you looked me up and found that I am a window cleaner. lol

I'm not a robot (anymore;)

Anonymous said...

Thank you James. When our Lord referred to the religious leaders of His time, he was calling them out as legalists. He did not use that term but it applies. There is a spiritual battle between the Law and Grace. They are not compatible. The legalists put people under the Law - our Lord's message was/is one of Grace. That is what I meant.