Tuesday, September 1, 2015

Pharisees and Divorce

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For the Christian divorce should be resisted. This is obvious according to scripture. [Malachi 2:16]

 I have been married for almost 20 years. My husband is my first and only husband.

 In every marriage there will come hard times where you will be tested. Even if both spouses have stayed ever faithful, there can be other issues that crop up that will bring hardship, this can range from health problems, to infertility and to job loss. Young people should be given the facts about marriage, that it is not romance and flowers everyday but that hardship WILL come if you are together long enough.

My marriage has been tested, big time, I lost my health very young and he has faced health problems and job lay-offs. In fact due to our financial problems and his career being decimated after two job-lay-offs in an 18 month period, I had the world around eight years ago telling ME to divorce and that I was a fool to stay married to him.

 There was a time where I did not know what to do. It was very difficult. We had even faced possibilities of our household collapsing when I was praying to God literally to bring us the means for food and to keep a roof over our heads.  That's the real effects of the collapsing economy.  My family did not support the marriage from the get-go because he was not wealthy, and because he was not Catholic. From his side, he was told to abandon me by relatives due to my failing health.

I waited on the Lord, we both hung in there, and decided to ignore the messages of the world, and we got through our rough spot that seemed like it never would end. Love will grow deeper with time in a marriage when you go through times like this. I prayed to God directly to save our marriage and not let divorce happen. God did answer this prayer. We have grown closer over the last few years.

I don't believe in people being treated like disposable Kleenex's tossed in the trash. That's how many relationships are today, tossed over board, they go through relationships as fast as they change outfits. Marriage has eroded away. The cultural warriors are right about some of those aspects they warn about.

My marriage over-all has been a happy one even with the extreme blows of life and we love each other. So on the marriage front, marriage for me has been a blessing in my life. However for some it has not gone that way.  We should have mercy for those who have not had it go the right way.

 One thing I have noticed however in the church world, is there seems to be a lot of cruelty towards the divorced and mean judgments towards anyone struggling in a marriage. The cookie-cutter "Christian" world seems really centered on this idea of marriages of Step-ford wife like people. With all the idolization of families, everyone who is married is expected to show this perfect relationship and perfect family life. Well life is a bit more messy then that.

I always have said to people that too much is put on romantic relationships in our society. Friendship gets ignored. Sex is so focused on, that the other aspects of marriage are ignored. Young people are told they are not complete until they find the "one" and this isn't God, but a partner that supposedly will come to solve all their problems and make all their dreams come true. This sets people up for marriage failure. This gives them false expectations of human beings who come with their own baggage.

 I noticed this in the Catholic world when I was still in the Catholic church. Growing up divorced people were seen automatically as lesser.  They seemed relegated to the back of the church if they came at all. This probably has lessened with the years, but I have seen the mentalities in other churches, where divorced people are seen as "marked", "sinful" people. In some church settings to admit any martial problems is to be named a pariah.

I remember all the tongues wagging when one aunt got divorced and how horrific it all was. It seemed they blamed her even though her husband started having an affair and LEFT her to move in with the other woman.  I noticed this with some horror, how even the innocent parties in divorces where the wife had stayed ever faithful, seemed to be blamed for a man leaving or straying or divorcing a woman. We see this happening with the Duggar saga and Anna Duggar, especially with the pastor of their church Ronnie Floyd implying Anna Duggar was to blame. Did you know Ronnie Floyd was the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention?

His false teaching was astounding....

"However, Floyd warned, if a husband or wife fails to keep his or her partner happy sexually they are opening themselves "up to the attack of the enemy.

"And that enemy is going to take your spouse away from you," he said.

"Both men and woman have their sexual needs met by someone, somewhere, somehow."

It's all about defending the wicked and their desires in the flesh. That sounds like the end road to all those church sermons focusing on sex with the two set of feet under the sheets. And this is the man now in charge of the SBC!

 You know there is a real hatred of women, that is being pushed on the "right", and all this patriarchy garbage is now infused into the Christian mainstream. Remember when it comes to the patriarchy types, it's always the woman's fault if a marriage fails. Such types will ruin what marriage was meant to be. They will turn it into a contract of life-long servitude instead of having anything to do with love or God. They will be helpers in the NWO plan to destroy personal relationships and love and attachment between people.

Here they will turn to the divorce and skew things there too.

It is like divorce is a red scarlet letter to be slapped on the front of divorced people in the evangelical churches. A big "D" to mark the people as having less then a perfect family life. Forgotten is that in many cases people give a marriage their all, but the other party checks out. It takes two to be married. Not every divorced person necessarily sinned especially if they were someone who was left behind.
This seemed so extreme to me in the independent fundamentalist Baptist world, that I noticed within two churches I attended, I only met two divorced people. Some would say there are less divorced fundamentalist Christians but the numbers seemed very low. One thing I have always seen in churches is how families dominate and even single adults and childless people seem rare as Dodo birds. Why is that? Because they don't fit a cookie cutter model?

Divorce is hated by God so it should be the absolute last resort but it does happen. There are biblical foundations for divorce. Matthew 5:32 and Matt 19:19 mention sexual immortality or fornication as a cause for divorce. This doesn't mean reconciliation shouldn't be attempted but it seems to me to be a clear biblical foundation that there are times divorce will happen when one spouse cheats. Many cheaters simply leave. Should there be blame for the innocent parties in those broken up couples? The one who cheats and remarries remains an adulterer. 1 Corinthians 7 outlines some of the biblical foundations for divorce especially when someone is married to a non-believer who abandons them. They are told they are no longer in bondage.

1 Corinthians 7:10–16    
10 And unto the married I command, yet rnot I, but the Lord, sLet not the wife depart from her husband: 11 tBut and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12 But kto the rest speak I, unot the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she wbe pleased to dwell with him, let him not xput her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he wbe pleased to dwell with her, let her not xleave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else ywere your children unclean; but now are they zholy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but aGod hath called us to peace. 16 For bwhat knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt csave thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt csave thy wife?

There is some Pharisee like thinking in the churches. There is no understanding even for the divorced person who may have had an unbeliever leave or divorce them over their faith. Obviously you can tell by now I do not agree with the Christians who deny there are biblical precepts for divorce. I do not think someone is required to remain married to an adulterer. Often the adulterers already have their foot out the door, anyway and the spouse will be abandoned. Would some Pharisees say that a Christians is still in bondage after being left by an adulterer?

Divorce should be the last resort. Christians should seek reconciliation. Yes even Anna Duggar should seek it, if at all possible. [script or no script] If there is a spark of conscience left in her spouse, she will soon know.  I don't have much hope for this, but there you go. This doesn't mean sit blindly by and accept abuse and adultery. Sadly the cult system she is in will help make sure Josh does not come to any true repentance if he has any conscience left to do so. It will tell her that she is at fault and that she is wicked if she desire to draw boundaries.  Even there scripture has made provisions for a spouse to depart from a toxic situation in 1 Cor. 7:10-11.

Now I had a commenter write something that disturbed me the other day. I want to talk about this in detail because this is something bothering me more and more.

They wrote:

"A wife must submit to her husband, even if he is a wicked man. As long as her submission doesn't require her to sin. A husband must love his wife, even if she is wicked and undeserving of his love and care. Remember Hosea?"

I do not agree with either stance. I believe God does NOT want us to submit to the wicked whatsoever. If a spouse sins that is different, we all have our own sins to contend with but to submit to evil is to enable it. Even in 1 Cor 7 10-11, it discusses those who must depart. God does not mandate submitting to wicked people or reprobates. Here is a place where the whole counsel of God needs to be adhered to. Those who do not draw boundaries or make stands against evil, actually give evil more of a place. A woman not standing against a wicked man who is abusing her children, is enabling that evil. A man allowing a sociopathic woman to abuse his children, is also enabling evil. Somewhere people got the idea that Christians are supposed to be doormats to the wicked. Turn the other cheek does not mean help the wicked commit more sins.

Along with the Pharisees condemning the divorced even in the case of the innocent parties, we have the Pharisees mandating more abuse in the church system. Sociopaths and narcissists--aka reprobates and the fully wicked, are given carte blanche permission to create a swath of destruction as Christian people are told to step aside and give them a place. Yes this would include a wicked spouse where no boundaries are drawn. Telling a woman she must submit to a husband no matter how wicked, is the same as when the Catholics wrote that someone must submit to a Pope no matter how wicked. It is authoritarianism born out of the gate of hell. When women especially are told to submit to evil in Christianity it is something that awards the wicked, it gives them power.

This is where the patriarchy movement has created the enabling of evil within Christianity. This is why the churches basically have absolutely failed when it comes to domestic abuse and abuse of children. Have any of you ever wonder why abuse is so rife in religious circles?

This may offend some here, but I do not believe women are forced to stay with an abuser, nor are they to submit to the wicked. Victims of abuse are told if they become more meek and mild that they will change their abusers. That isn't how it works. If anything it will make their abusers more bold and wicked. Many abusers of women and children are reprobates. I believe the sexual abusers definitely are in most cases. This is one way society sets up a cage for the victims of abuse and sadly most of the churches support it. The patriarchy movement is more about power then any love of God or doing what is right in His eyes. Those who desire power are the sociopaths and they want gas-lighted victims who believe that standing up for their own lives and for good is "wrong".

There are so many people abused in cults. We see how men have abused power in Quiverful. Josh Duggar was created via a system that teaches women they are to submit mindlessly.  Have you ever wondered why this cult was chosen as an example to show the world what the powers that be wanted to define Christianity by? They choose it on purpose because it advances power hierarchies they desire to enforce on people in different guises. Satanists hate women, and it's more then obvious.

In way this mindless submission born out of legalism creates monsters because there is an extreme power imbalance and lack of accountability.  It's the same thing in FLDS as an example of a cult where perversion ruled and they told women especially they were to submit to wicked men to the point the entire system supported a man like Warren Jeffs who preyed on their children.

 I believe the whole counsel of God is to be adhered to. So the edicts to depart from the wicked are to be ignored? So when we read about the unclean in the Bible and to separate from them none of that is to be applied?

Numbers 16:26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you from the tents of these wicked man and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins.

 The church system is failing when it comes to domestic abuse and the abuse of children. One of the reasons is because so many of the victims are told to submit and enable evil. False candy-eyed visions of the wicked are handed out to people leaving them more vulnerable as prey to absolute sociopaths. People sitting in the pews are told to hug vampires. The Bible says get away from them. I left wicked people behind, and have talked about it. This was not a marital relationship but others. Some would be horrified asking me, "How dare you?" but I was mandated by God to walk and not tolerate their wickedness.

 It makes me sick when I see absolutely battered wives told they must submit more and they are victims because they "did something" wrong. I knew this battered wife, where her husband did full blown sociopathic beatings and threats to her life, told by a false church that she needed to submit more. I wanted to throw up. She eventually got away and told me she hated Christianity. I probably have been her only link to showing her what Jesus Christ really taught and it wasn't that.

Many within the churches claim that people are to "forgive" everyone in the same way. Forgiveness is necessary and mandated by God but there is a difference between those we forgive and reconcile with, and those we forgive and depart from when there has been no repentance. The latter forgiveness requires obeying God and not seeking retribution.

There is too much enabling of evil in the church system. The whole counsel of God requires that evil is stood against. Yes we want reconciliation even within marriage as often as is possible but to demand that women submit to wicked men is not the will of God. There are many using such powers to abuse others, and letting the conscienceless prey on the innocent and vulnerable. Sadly when it comes to marriage, many Pharisees blame the victims and demand they submit to wickedness.


cdf said...

And then, there's the category of being "unequally yoked." Where one person becomes born again while married to an unbeliever who wants a divorce.

Sorry, I didn't finish reading.

Scott Wasinski said...

I am usually Amenin' you and referring others to your blog. However, I do have to disagree here. I wouldn't even bring it up, but I am in the process of a divorce that was rooted in my wife NOT wanting to submit to my headship as I have had to make some very drastic and real decisions based upon my faith in the Word and my knowledge of the times in which we live. So I find it important to reply here.

You quoted a comment from a blogger of an earlier post "A wife must submit to her husband, even if he is a wicked man. As long as her submission doesn't require her to sin. A husband must love his wife, even if she is wicked and undeserving of his love and care. Remember Hosea?"

Although the way in which he brings this up may seem crude, it is, nonetheless in harmony with the teachings of scripture. I Peter 3 gives the account of a chaste woman having the power to transform their husbands through their obedience. You may not agree, but that is what is very evident in the Word of God. We are living with a culture that has been saturated with the feminist doctrine of Jezebel, which demands to be in control, when in fact, the Lord set the man as the head of his wife.

Anonymous said...

Marriage is a test of character, the biggest next to our relationship with God. Many men forget the "as unto God" or "as it is fit in the Lord" when dealing with the headship issue. We are told to submit to each other (Ephesians 5:21). Women need love and men need respect (Ephesians 5:33). My wife of 33 years is my best friend here on earth (John 15:13). - Don

Anonymous said...

I saw the title of the post and knew that it had come from recent comments. I didn't like the Pharisee comparison and accusations. In this case I didn't think it deserved. The standpoints of the commenter are widely held in many circles. I'm not saying I agree, but I do understand we all come from different perspectives and backgrounds and that we should teach or argue our own beliefs with love at all times, and at all times being blameless in the eyes of God and man.

Catholics hold a similar no divorce doctrine (I am not condoning the roman church or its beliefs), and John Piper teaches the once engaged - is already married tradition and that if fornication occurs during this betrothal period that this is the only grounds for divorce. Mary, if she had been with another man when pregnant with Jesus - would have been guilty of adultery and the death penalty given. Hence why the angel came to Joseph and why Joseph did not so wrongfully accuse her. In every church and amongst every believer - we are all different in our beliefs.

And it's the discernment given to us by God that should show us the difference between a wolf, and a brother or sister who is in error.

I also want to say that patriarchy is not evil, it is the design of God. The entire feminist movement is based not only on the death of children and families, but to ultimately destroy the natural order of this world as far as man is concerned and as far as God created us. It's the devil deceiving us to do everything that God hates, and hating everything that God commands and loves.

Having said these things, all these positions and commandments are indeed being abused by the deceivers amongst us. Either going to one extreme or another. Which is all but confusion for the flock. Either it's hyper patriarchy or total destruction of patriarchy, and it's either hyper anti-divorce or it's divorce for all on a whim. The same goes for every other historical Bible truth. The false leaders take us to extremes, one extreme end or the other - without any middle ground to study what the Bible is actually saying and teaching us in how to conduct our lives.

I fully understand the position of BB, and the anger in hating the tolerance of evil in our midst.

Anger can indeed be righteous, as is true for God - whose anger is both righteous and just against the wicked.

But temperance and love for brothers or sisters who may be in error must always be our only solution. Especially today, when all of us are in the wrong in one area or another, not one of us can agree with another on all points. Paul had to deal with those who fell into error so quickly after receiving the message of the Gospel, and he responded with patience, love, and firmness in holding true to God's revealed truth given to him. We can only try to ever emulate Paul, given as an example to us, in spreading the truth, refuting deceptions, and not ever bowing to heresies or apostasies within the assembly.

Anonymous said...

While you're caught up in being the head, what about all the things you are doing wrong in the marriage? Are you unselfish? Do you put her needs and desires before your own? Do you make sacrifices for her? Do you help her, appreciate her, support her? Do you lead properly, since the leading is so important to you? There is so much you are doing wrong, and instead, you are finding a problem with her. Well guess what? Not wanting to submit is not grounds for divorce, yet because of her horrible sin of not submitting, you will be committing the horrible sin of divorce. Yes, it is a horrible sin, just like any other, and your excuse does NOT fall under a Biblical reason for divorce.
You know, I am sure once you are gone, she will MOVE ON, and be quite relieved, while still being the innocent one who did not seek out the sin of divorce. Trust me, she will be glad to be rid of you.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, those are harsh words you just expressed to Scott. Why didn't you FIRST get a little more information from him? Clearly, there is more to this story that goes beyond 3 paragraphs. As a woman, I am appalled at the number of defiant women I come across, and this is within the body of Christ. There is absolutely no grace in your comment. In fact, it is you who come across as defiant! Let's show some mercy for our brethren. We are living in a time when men, and the concept of headship in the family, is being destroyed. I am a strong, independent and capable woman who has been convicted of late to be more obedient to the headship of my husband and let me tell you, this has brought more peace in our home!!!!!!! Praise God, all to His glory!

Anonymous said...

A couple of points on Matthew 5:32. I’m only sharing the arguments as I’ve researched them previously. Food for thought if anyone else wants to contribute their own thoughts.

Jesus did not say, no divorce lest it be for the cause of “ADULTERY”. He used the word “FORNICATION”. He also used both words, fornication and adultery in the same sentence. Yet we want to view both fornication and adultery as being the same word - when they are not.

Fornication is any relations outside of marriage.
Adultery is any relations with another while being married.

The viewpoint of “fornication” being committed outside of the marriage betrothal is an accurate one. So while Jesus was on this earth, if He was commenting on this as being the only grounds for divorce - then He was changing the Judgement of this crime from death to possible divorce.

Yet any Israelite who followed this new teaching of Jesus BEFORE His Ascension into Heaven which ushered in the new covenant - would have been breaking the Law. And if Jesus was the ONLY man to never break the Law - while also commanding others to break the Law - then we have a very BIG problem.

Jesus did not forgive the adulteress brought before Him, He condemned her to death. Read the Scripture properly.

But now if we consider “fornication” and “adultery” are the same word with the same meaning, then why would Jesus not just state it and say saving for the cause of adultery - would cause the woman to commit adultery? Using the word adultery in both instances?

If this be the case, then Jesus still changed the Law by no longer allowing death penalty or other conviction of either man or woman committing adultery outside of a betrothal. And instead narrowed the crime to after the marriage ceremony, and removed the death penalty, replacing it with an option to divorce.

Others see the term “fornication” as only referencing the covenant with God. God states over and over again in Scripture of Israel going a whoring after other gods, Israel committing adultery, having other lovers, and on it goes, including the entire book of Hosea.

People holding this view believe the “fornication” is referring to anyone who has left the congregation of God. People in this camp say that divorce is an option only in the case of a spouse falling away from the faith of Jesus Christ in the new covenant. If this is the case, then we can freely divorce any non-believer… which is of course in contradiction of Paul’s writings.

Lastly there is the all-inclusive camp. Anyone who commits fornication, either outside of betrothal or marriage, or who no longer is a follower of Christ, all are committing “fornication”, and any believer can divorce them.

Those are the different understandings of this Scripture I’ve researched.

Personally, I am of the belief that the word “fornication” is meaning encompassing relations outside of marriage. Scripture says we can justify our unbelieving husbands or wives through our faith, so we cannot contradict Scripture.

However, what if we were soon to again live in a time of Babylonian worship? Human sacrifices, killing babies, dead babies in the cornerstones of our houses, cannibalism, and all the horrors of full-on sun worshipping Baalists? Which we are heading to in the NWO. In this case, if our spouse is practicing this fornication against God, but not committing adultery in our marriage - can we divorce and depart? I say yes.

When the Scriptures were written, all the Babylonian practices and its religion were all openly practiced by Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and all the other pagans. It was a normal daily part of life. Jesus Christ destroyed all of it at that time, but we are told it will rise again, and it is almost here.

So to be a non believer is one thing, but being a “fornicator”, whoring after other gods, is an entirely different matter altogether, and likely considered so demonic and wicked - that any of God’s children must depart from any husband or wife committing such abominable acts. I agree on this 100%.

As I said, food for thought, and lots to consider.

Anonymous said...

God hates divorce, however you are allowed to divorce for any reason. What you are not allowed to do is remarry. The only biblical allowance for remarriage is fornication/adultery. (see Mark 10).

Faith Contender said...

Oh my.
I haven't read the long scroll on here either but have seen my fair share of these things from various angles. A few notes: John Piper is a wolf who promotes Rick Warren. No further comment necessary regarding this wolf status. Doesn't mean every word out of a wolf's mouth is false, hence the deception. As for the man seeking a divorce, we don't know the details of it, it is unwise to prejudge, and the details are probably private.
As for marriage, I recall there had been a lot of hounding on the 'submit' drum in churches back in the day, and it was always unbalanced. Yes, that is in there, but so is this one that we never heard about, it conveniently got swept under the kitchen rug:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it" Ephesians 5; 25

That requires self sacrificial love. Neither men nor women can live up to these perfect standards, but that is the biblical model and it needs to be in balance.
Too many men including Christian men are guilty of the locker room mentality that demotes women to a slave of various sorts that they feel they have the right to take advantage of, or a sex toy to use and throw away, or a maid to bring them their beer on a golden platter on those big sports days spent wasted in front of the TV. Many have a very animalistic attitude toward sex with women (as many as possible, as quickly as possible, with as little commitment as possible), and many are addicted to pornography as well secretly and that is why they are never satisfied but commit adultery and worse. I have heard personal accounts like that often and that is real life. Not that wives are perfect. But if the spouse is wicked, just obey the biblical mandate and many times God heals the marriage from the other end, it's one of those principles.
God bless!

Kayfabe said...

Amen Bible Believer! I couldn't have said it better. Many of these patriarchal church systems which include Calvary Chapel fail to teach men that Jesus came.to serve not to be served. If we are to love our wives like Christ loved the Church then we are to be servants to our wives not demand submission. Wives are to submit but as Husbands we don't demand it. This submission does have strings attached such as no form of abuse whatsoever either verbal, emotional, physical or spiritual. She also is not to allow her Husband to cause her to sin against Jehovah. She is not to enable her Husbands sin either. If he gets involved with pornography she has the right to divorce him. Also if he abuses her in any way she has the right to divorce him. The whole counsel of God is important here. Regarding unbelieving spouses go, you will note that the text says something to the effect "if it pleases them to dwell with you". If an unbeliever is not pleased to dwell with you which will show in their actions not their words then the believer has every right to leave and divorce. I'm done with pharasaical milquetoast Christianity. By sending a divorcee back to an abusive spouse to fufill a supoosed biblical command is foolhearty.

Anonymous said...

BB, I totally agree with your comments. The patriarchal movement is a distortion and perversion of biblical order. No way to tell how many women and children have been damaged by this mindset. One proponent of this is Calvinist respected in homeschooling circles, Voddie Bauchmann. Another is Gothardism.

Yes, we as believers are to be longsuffering but this does not mean that abuse is to be tolerated. The Church should defend the weak and those who are being mistreated. Not referring to minor conflicts but rather to flagrant domestic abuse that is occurring at an alarming rate. This often results in child abuse and certainly emotional damage.

If entered into properly, a period of separation can often prevent divorce, but it takes a step of courage. Abuse tolerated results in escalation.

Sadly, even in so-called Christian circles the role of men is not biblically taught and implemented in the home. The verses dealing with submission are often used as Bible bullets to lay a guilt trip and manipulate.

Yes, God hates divorce, but people make bad choices such as adultery and that is why divorce is permitted. Even when it is justified, it is still destructive to the family. Too many marriages are entered into with stars in the eyes and without proper counsel. Yes, there is a Jezebel spirit, but it can also be present in men. It is a rebellious spirit that is self-centered.

BB, you have in my opinion, addressed this thorny issue with a great deal of thought. No marriage is perfect, but there are some that definitely are not made in heaven to use a common phrase.

In light of the Duggar dilemma and the ensuing revelations regarding the wayward son, and the alleged counsel of the family pastor that the wife should suck it up and stay together. This secret never would have come to light if it had not been for the hacking of the website. Then he had no choice but to come clean. It is a matter of trust and betrayal of the wedding vows. Only time will tell if he is genuinely repentant. I hope his wife gets some good biblical counsel in the days ahead.

Anonymous said...

False preacher/teacher Francis Frangipane wrote a book entitled "The Jezebel Spirit" back in 2001. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing and is associated with many within the charismatic movement that come up with unscriptural teachings from their own vain imaginations and all of it is an abomination to our LORD.

TL over at SpoudazO Logos writes:

"It is unfortunate that there are those who have added to the Scriptures to claim that an evil woman of the Old Testament is now a female demon going about influencing mostly women to be like her in Christian churches. There is no biblical "spirit of jezebel." What there is, is a real woman who lived and died. Her spirit does not roam the earth in the form of a demon and influence people."

Revelation 2:20-23 God says this:

"Nevertheless, I have this against you: you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching, she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of foods sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her, suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am He who searches the hearts and minds and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."

This is the Jezebel our LORD speaks of in the book of Revelation. How many people in Christianity claim to be prophets and prophetesses? How many of God's servants have been given over to sexual immorality because of their own poor choices? How many preach doctrines concerning food....the false teachings of the Hebrew roots followers demand the rest of us to follow Old Testament dietary restrictions? And how many within church systems become divorced and commit adultery due to unscriptural reasons for divorcing?

And how many within this false charismatic movement blame the woman, due to her feminist jezebel spirit, for their divorces, then proceed to the next marriage, and the next, and the next?

What I cannot figure out for the life of me is this....If Bill Gothard never married nor had children for himself, why in the world would any born again Christian seek his wisdom on marriage, family, and raising children given that fact he has no personal experience in such matters. It just seems crazy and absurd to place so much trust in a man and his teachings rather that allowing the Bible to speak for itself in all matters pertaining to life here on this earth.

Christianity has created its own gods and it seems we are no better than those who built and worshiped that golden calf long ago. LORD, have mercy on us for we continuously break your first command.

cdf said...

There is a rape culture in America/the world. There is a bully culture where men feel the need to abuse women, among other things. There is a culture of women having to put up with the 'male gaze',and then some. There is a culture where women are not believed, maybe because they have become WHORES and then feel the need to pretend that they have something to say. Maybe there are real people suffering.

Men, women---this all makes me vomit. That's all I know right this second.

Faith Contender said...

Yes, I finally read through all of this post and I don't see any reason to oppose anything. No one is saying wives should not submit, just not to evil men who want to abuse and molest the children and beat their wives and that sort of thing. What if you found out you were married to a pedophile? A rapist, a satanist, something like that? I would go.
Judge us all you want for it.

Faith Contender said...

On another note, I am starting a "Yellow Cross" movement (like the yellow star Jews were forced to wear during the holocaust) in defense of Christians being persecuted for obeying God rather than man in following the biblical Christian faith.
Google about Kim Davis to see what I am talking about, speaking of marriage!

Anonymous said...

The whole church system is trying to be a replica of the true church, His bride which is being built up by Jesus Christ alone. His true church is not man centered, nor man instigated or organized. So when others rely upon a false system to guide and lead them, it is going to bring them into further apostacy even regarding marriage. I went to a non-denominational church years ago and was going to do lay counseling ministry. I asked the head elder who was also the head of the counseling ministry this question, "What do you do when a woman comes in for counseling and she has been emotionally or physically abused by her husband? I personally wanted to know this church's resources at that time to help women, places of refuge if needed. What came out of his mouth stunned me. He said, "They need to submit." I said, "What if he is going to kill her?" He said, "Yes, the bible says even unto death she must submit." I wrote the main Pastor and this elder the reason I would never work under their ministry. The main Pastor told me to keep this hush hush.

Anonymous said...

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus-

I was married, divorced and remarried. Then one day I stumbled across the following verse and the scales fell from my eyes.

By law, a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress (Romans 7:2-3).

When Jesus was here it was the Pharisees, who were full of greed, wickedness and self-indulgence, who were in favor of divorce. Many among them had an abominable practice of marrying young teenage girls, then tiring of them and replacing them
with another. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus with another one of their conundrums. Below is the dialogue between Jesus and the Pharisees concerning divorce.

Some Pharisees came and tested him (Jesus) by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" "What did Moses command you?" he replied. They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery" (Mark 10:2-12).

If the life of the family members is in danger from abuse, they can leave. but the wife cannot remarry while her covenant spouse is still alive. She can separate from the abusive spouse but she is not allowed to remarry. (Lk 16:16, Mk.10:12, 1 Cor 7:39, Rm 7.2-3

I vacated my remarriage because Jesus called it adultery. It was the most excruciating thing I had ever done, but I counted the cost and found Jesus worth it; I wanted to be pure and remain pure for Him and for the salvation of my soul. (My valid covenant husband lives on the other side of the world. I asked if he wanted to reconcile and he said No. (well-- maybe one day far down the road-- which amounted practically to a 'No". I therefore am committed to live chaste. Christ is my husband. The Pharisees in the modern church chastised me for being a "legalist" and tried to talk me into remaining in the unlawful remarriage. The message is not popular. This is why John the Baptist was beheaded- for pointing out to Herod that it was not lawful for him to have his brothers wife.

Anyway, below is my testimony which you can read if you click on the link. It is a lonely life and the road is narrow and difficult. but the Lord has told us to come out and be separate. The apostate church thinks I'm crazy for giving up my life like this but that is what Jesus calls us to do.

But I think that a woman who has been abandoned by an unfaithful husband should not be accused, but loved and supported and encouraged to press on in holiness and obedience to the Lord and to remain chaste and to be encouraged with the reminder that Christ can be her husband if she remains faithful to him. God bless you.


Anonymous said...

These are really hard situations.

Anonymous said...

Think of how many pastors and leadership destroy the marriages of the innocent who attend their churches. One day, the mask will come off and these wicked people will have to give an answer to Jesus to as why they destroyed the marriages of other believers. Evil is alive and well within our churches, is it not?

Faith Contender said...

Wow anon!

That is crazy and evil! And there is a cover up, the last thing I would do is keep it hush hush when they want that, be a whistleblower to expose evil as the bible says. They try to silence us but it won't work. And the bible does not say anything like that. We are to submit unto Jesus unto death, but He isn't the one killing us, the enemies of the cross are and that is totally different. The bible says there should be peace as the article here states too. I have heard this some time ago too, that there is a lot of abuse in "Christian" marriages, wife beating and stuff like that. It's like they just want to create a cult so they can abuse women. Years ago I heard things like that about Promise Keepers, (and it is cultic, many signs, can't get into it all here but do a google search and see), anyway that they promote that sort of hee-man stuff and look down upon and belittle women and wives. Like the days of the cave men. Truly, I could go on in volumes about the abuse from the opposite sex I have heard so many women complaining about and seen all over over the years. It's like the men who are truly capable of love, (like Don up there-good for you guys!) are so rare... ):
Anyway I hope the ladies on here are not suffering any of this stuff!

Bible Believer said...

I am glad some here saw what I mean by these articles.

I agree about fornication covering sexual cheating in a marriage. One poster brought up other evils. What does a woman do whose husband becomes a Satanist? [she married before she was born again] What does a woman do whose husband takes the mark of the beast? Yes fornication could cover different things not just this nebulous pre-marriage sin some mention.

They wrote "In this case, if our spouse is practicing this fornication against God, but not committing adultery in our marriage - can we divorce and depart? I say yes."

I agree. I believe one can divorce and depart in those cases.

I agree with this statement too:

"So to be a non believer is one thing, but being a “fornicator”, whoring after other gods, is an entirely different matter altogether, and likely considered so demonic and wicked - that any of God’s children must depart from any husband or wife committing such abominable acts. I agree on this 100%."

I agree Faith Contender they have stressed the "submit drum". The Dominonists love that one and we know it. Yes they ignore the husband's responsibility as detailed in scripture.

I am glad you mention how some push the "locker room mentality" that puts women in the place of a sex slave and maid. It seems to be something that happens in all the extreme Phariseeical cults like FLSD and we are seeing it with the Quiverfuls. The women become powerless [yes I hate the radical feminism too but women are human beings not slaves or chattel] Radical Islam has taken things way too far with women and its not by accident some of these cults match some of their edicts, adult women unable to make a move without a chaperone and all the rest. This stuff is wicked too. We have too many false pastors going on about the Jezebels and women committing sins, and ignoring the whore-mongers. [that word is in the bible too]

I agree God can heal even wickedness in a marriage. But even there one has to discern. If someone is with a REPROBATE who is given over that is a different matter. Even in the case of general evil, it should not be tolerated and should be departed from even if a wife in that case may choose to seek reconciliation if she sees a contrite heart.

Bible Believer said...

To the lady who posted she became more obedient to the headship of her husband, I hope he treats you very kindly and it has brought true peace. I like this link:
http://www.bible.ca/marriage/headship.htm It holds the men responsible too. I do believe men are to be loving leaders of the home. Not slave drivers.

Thanks Kayfabe. I agree about Calvary Chapel. Some of this stuff was pushed in there. I agree Jesus Christ talked about being a servant and that is what that entails, because servant to their wives, not acting as a dictator but a leader with love and guidance. I agree that she is not to allow her husband to make her sin. She is not to follow him in sin or enable sin. I agree with you about the unbelievers. I became a Christian after I was married but my husband was pleased to live with me. So the situation is different for someone involved with an unbeliever who is not please to live with them and may even cheat on or abuse them.

I am tired of the Pharisees who want women to live as slaves and chattel and who do not defend them from wickedness and teach them to submit to it. And there always seems to be this thing where they are telling women to put up with evil. I'm a bit weirded out by the people saying it is alright for a man to remarry after divorce but NOT a woman. How is that biblical? I believe remarriage is only to occur if you are out of bondage according to scripture, and that comes with being abandoned or cheated on. Some would include abuse with abandonment. A spouse that goes into Babylonian religious whoredom where God has shown a believer there is no chance of repentance and Satanism or reprobation could be considered a "fornicator" too. There's too many bad pastors telling abused women to crawl back to abusers and just take it. What I want to know is how come no one addresses the abusive men?


Bible Believer said...

Thanks Anon. I agree about the patriarchial movement. I believe many women are being hurt by cruel men who care more about their power and prestige rather then following the will of God. I'm not surprised Calvinism is mixed into the Voddie stew. Gothard definitely has the legalism and Pharisee outlooks. Always wondered if he was a closet Jesuit, since he never married while advancing marriage and large families. What does he know about family life? Nothing.

I agree we are to be long suffering but sadly too may are told to kneel before and submit to reprobates--the psychologists would call them sociopaths, and enable their evil. Many of these men commit great sins and evils while the other men in their company shrink back. You think no one knew about the evil Warren Jeffs committed as the women were all controlled in FLDS? I dare say with Josh Duggar he learned it from somewhere. Domestic abuse and child abuse is out of control. You never see any pastors speak against child abuse or domestic abuse. A rare liberal church does on occasion but it's mixed with watered down mush on everything else. In more "conservative" churches if anything child abuse is actually promoted, not discipline but Michael Pearl methods and other extreme methods, to keep the authoritarianism going, and the power structure. Most of the time when I have met domestically abused women, they had to leave the church or do their best to keep their problems hidden lest they be condemned.

I agree sometimes separation can be used to prevent a divorce. It at least draws a boundary against a wicked spouse, to say this will not be tolerated. That is the time to see if reconciliation will happen.

I agree the submission stuff is laid on women to always feel the guilt and responsible for the break-ups of marriages, while men are not held accountable.

I agree too with your other thoughts. Too many are indeed getting married with stars in their eyes. Men as well as women can be self-serving and self interested.
I hate that Anna Duggar was instructed to stay and suck it up and with that Duggar pastor--the head of the SBC who decided to blame wives of cheating husbands. A cheater will cheat no matter how kind or giving a wife is. How will she draw boundaries or stand against evil or even determine there is any real repentance? In her case she is either married to a reprobate or a man who has never grown up and is still letting Mommy and Daddy serve as the replacement for a conscience. She may have both on her hands. If it's a script of course too that is a foundation of deceit. You are right he only came clean because he got caught. I hope she does get some good biblical counsel and she just doesn't hear from the Pharisees. Her earthly father too is failing to protect or counsel her properly. Here we see the inherent failings of the patriarchial movement.

Bible Believer said...

Anon the church system is failing to protect women. You never see men in a church system stand up for an abused wife. Maybe there's a few good ones it has happened in but it would be the exception to the rule. That pastor is horrible to have said that about an abused woman! Sadly we have seen and heard this from the false Pharisees. The men are never called to any spiritual account but the women are told to submit and be good slaves. If one is to read how church discipline is to operate, it would seem the abusers would be put under some sort of censure, but they rarely are, are they? Even the refusal of a place of refuge for some women could mean they are leaving a woman in a deadly situation.

Bible Believer said...


I am curious Anon, wouldn't you be free to remarry once your ex spouse has joined with another woman or committed adultery?

I have to admit, I do not agree with your beliefs:

You wrote: " In other words, today your spouse’s cheating does not permit you to divorce and remarry. "

Many cheaters will leave. If a cheater leaves independent of any actions of the other spouse, do you still see that innocent marriage partner unable to ever remarry again even if the cheating spouse does?

I simply do not agree.

It seems to me you have allowed yourself under heavy bondage. God may convict a woman after an abusive relationship to remain celibate or single to heal, especially since many women who are in abusive relationships were abused as a child and could be in danger of choosing another abuser.

I find it odd that you explain away that clause as just a Jewish betrothal rule. It is worrisome to me that you divorced your second husband. There doesn't seem anything right about this to me especially since your first spouse [hope I am reading this right] is long gone and already in a new relationship.

I do not believe everyone CAN remarry. There are second marriages all over the place, I do not believe God would honor, however I do not agree with you that the answer is to divorce a second time. One must have a biblical foundation for the divorce to begin with. In the case where another spouse especially has not cheated and wants reconciliation and someone goes to remarry another, yes those rules about adultery would apply.

Bible Believer said...

Faith Contender, I agree about the Promise Keepers, they definitely had that "he-man" strain going. I hope the other ladies here reading too are not facing difficult situations or adulterous spouses or abuse. I'm praying.

Anonymous said...

There's NO GRACE found in adulterous marriages, if so, please share scriptures.

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall BE ONE FLESH

Matthew 19:6 - Wherefore they are NO MORE TWAIN, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. ← no other relationship afterwards, allowed.

Matthew 19:8 - He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, WHOSOEVER shall PUT AWAY HIS WIFE, except it be for fornication, AND shall MARRY ANOTHER, COMMITteth ADULTERY: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. ← adulterous marriage.

Mark 10:12 - And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. ← adulterous marriage.

Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. ← adulterous marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:39 - The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. ← bound by law [there be no other relationship, afterwards], as long as the 1st spouse is STILL ALIVE

Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. ← no other relationship, afterwards .."til death do us part", remember ?

Gotta learn to get along and forgive 1 another..

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you


1 Corinthians 7:11 - BUT IF SHE DEPART, LET HER REMAIN UNMARRIED, OR BE RECONCILED TO HER HUSBAND: and let not the husband put away his wife

Ignore ↑ and marry another, then this ↓ will happen.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOr ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Anonymous said...

There's NO GRACE found in adulterous marriages, if so, please share scriptures.

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall BE ONE FLESH

Matthew 19:6 - Wherefore they are NO MORE TWAIN, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. ← no other relationship afterwards, allowed.

Matthew 19:8 - He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, WHOSOEVER shall PUT AWAY HIS WIFE, except it be for fornication, AND shall MARRY ANOTHER, COMMITteth ADULTERY: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. ← adulterous marriage.

Mark 10:12 - And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. ← adulterous marriage.

Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. ← adulterous marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:39 - The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. ← bound by law [there be no other relationship, afterwards], as long as the 1st spouse is STILL ALIVE

Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. ← no other relationship, afterwards .."til death do us part", remember ?

Gotta learn to get along and forgive 1 another..

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you


1 Corinthians 7:11 - BUT IF SHE DEPART, LET HER REMAIN UNMARRIED, OR BE RECONCILED TO HER HUSBAND: and let not the husband put away his wife

Ignore ↑ and marry another, then this ↓ will happen.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOr ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Anonymous said...

Here is what the word cleave means.....

cleave: Προσκολληθησεται [Strong's G4347], "shall be cemented to his wife," as the Hebrew davak implies; a beautiful metaphor, forcibly intimating that nothing but death can separate them.
Gen. 2:24
Matt. 19:5
Mark 10:7
Eph. 5:31

Anonymous said...

What of the carnal Christians who are saved? Will they not inherit the Kingdom? What about the people in the Corinthian church? Did they inherit the kingdom? Salvation is either not based on works or it is. You can't have it both ways. The unsaved will not inherit the kingdom. But even the most carnal christian will. Faith plus grace, plus nothing.

Also, God can forgive a divorce. What if a person was unsaved when married to somebody? They get a divorce and then get saved and marry a christian. Should they now go back to their former spouse? Will God not forgive their sin of divorce and bless this new marriage? Or is it held over their head forever?

Anonymous said...

This has to be the most heated topic I've ever seen on this blog.

Anonymous said...

To the anon who posted the following questions:

What of the carnal Christians who are saved?
-What verse is there which guarantees any carnal Christian redemption unto life eternal?

Will they not inherit the Kingdom?
-There is no such a thing as "carnal Christians" as that is a paradox. False ministers lead people astray from the redemption power of the gospel, by using passages such as Romans 7:14-25. We must be extremely careful because in the perilous times of the last days ears will itch, and we will be tempted to heap to ourselves teachers who don't preach the full counsel of God's word, and consequently allow us to make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. Romans 7:14-25 is not speaking of the redeemed, born again child of God. It is making a distinction between spiritual and carnal, speaking of mankind in the flesh. "(that is in my flesh)" Paul stated clearly. The flesh must be crucified for new life in Christ to begin.

What about the people in the Corinthian church?
-The Corinthians who were "carnal" were not saved. We read of their conversion in 2 Cor. chapter 7. There will be no so called carnal Christians in heaven. There is no such a thing - period! Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Did they inherit the kingdom?
-Only the repentant born again believers.

Salvation is either not based on works or it is.
-Salvation is a gift from God which we are all totally undeserving of.

You can't have it both ways. The unsaved will not inherit the kingdom. But even the most carnal christian will.
-You are correct that the unsaved will not inherit the kingdom, but are carnal Christians truly saved? Many will say "Lord, Lord." Genuine Believers don't merely profess Christ, they possess Him. The Holy Spirit dwells within them. Regeneration takes place and they are a new creature. Their change is evident.

Faith plus grace, plus nothing.
-Faith alone saves, but saving faith is never alone. Works aren't the root of our salvation as they are to those who are in bondage under the law. While they aren't the root, works are the fruit. We will manifest fruit if we are truly in Christ.

Also, God can forgive a divorce.

To be continued....

Anonymous said...


What if a person was unsaved when married to somebody? They get a divorce and then get saved and marry a christian. Should they now go back to their former spouse? Will God not forgive their sin of divorce and bless this new marriage? Or is it held over their head forever?
-A practical example of how we still face consequences of past sins while living in this world: A man with the most unimaginably vile past comes to new life in Christ. He was single, meets a woman and marries in the Lord. He previously had numerous sexual relationships. 15 years go by. He is happily married, with four children, pressing on, not dwelling on the past. He is struggling to feed and provide for his own family, but is doing everything possible to care for them. The family is sitting around the table enjoying a meal and one another's company, when suddenly there is a knock on the door. The man opens the door and sees a teenage boy who resembles him. The boy proceeds to tell him that the man is his father. This news is shocking and very unsettling to the family. What's more, he needs financial assistance because his mom is no longer able to support him on her own. The man agrees to a paternity test and the results show he truly is the boy's father. It was as if a bomb was dropped on this happy Christian family. They didn't no this kid even existed. They can hardly care for themselves. They may even feel this is something that will be "held over their head forever." Nevertheless, a real Christian wouldn't turn the kid away and tell him, "That was the past! I have been forgiven and have a new life now!" Sometimes there is baggage. Sometimes we will be faced with unpleasant consequences from sins we committed before we knew the Lord. Consequences that we must own up to and accept. The gospel is so much more than our life here. Jesus didn't die for us to have a happy life on earth. Life in this world is temporal. We have an eternal home waiting for us where there will be no more sorrow and pain.

Lastly, God does not recognize a piece of paper that says divorce or remarriage. He sees one partner for life, until death do them part. The natural man cannot accept God's ways. If you are truly born again, the Spirit will reveal the truth.

Love in Christ,

Jennie said...

If our spouse was to leave us or divorce us, and then later realise their mistake and wish to be reunited, then to refuse to take them back, is not true forgiveness. (Nowhere in the Scriptures do we read that a Christian can divorce his or her spouse, but only to leave them if living with the unbeliever becomes impossible or harmful, but then they are to remain in a single state or be reunited with their spouse. See 1 Cor. 7:11)
It is literally the same as asking God for forgiveness and Him telling you, "I forgive you, 'in my heart', but I am not going to take you back to me." He will forgive us, in the very same way we forgive our spouses. It depends on whether we have ever experienced the forgiveness of God in receiving His salvation. Then, we forgive because He has forgiven us, but if we have never experienced the salvation of God, we do not know true forgiveness and may harden our hearts towards those who have wronged us.
To not reconcile is literally the same thing as preaching a perverted gospel. A false gospel. Our marriages are God's picture to the world of His relationship, love, and commitment to His bride, the church. (See Eph. 5:25-33) A type and shadow of heavenly things. To not forgive is to preach that God does not forgive, or reconcile. And to replace our lawful spouse while they still alive is also preaching a false gospel, and a sanctioned commitment to lifelong unforgiveness. Make no mistake about it. It also constitutes adultery to be living with another spouse whilst our spouse is still alive!
"So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." (Romans 7:3)
This in fact is the same as saying that God replaces His bride, never to take her back. We have not forgiven until we have proved our genuineness in our actions. Words are cheap! Just as we are not true followers of Jesus Christ, until we are "doers of the word" and not "just hearers only." Just as we have not repented of sin, until we have repented in action and turned from sin to God. Repentance is not a noun, but a doing word; a verb. On judgement day, we will all be judged according to our actions, because they are the evidence of our heart.
Matthew 6:12 - And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Matthew 6:14-15 -For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mark 11:25 - And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Also see Matthew 18:21-35.
Even though all of the above are a part of "the gospel of the kingdom" to Israel, God is still the same God, and He requires the same contrite, humble and forgiving heart to come into His blessings; both temporal and Eternal. Only a heart full of pride says "I won't forgive you!" Proving that the heart of stone has never been replaced with a heart of flesh which occurs at the time of salvation. See Ezekiel 36:26.

Joy said...

I know I'm late to enter the discussion, but I think my situation might be somewhat common, and I'd like to share my testimony on this topic as it might encourage or help others.

I married very young. I was a Christian. I was also very young and naive. My husband was a new and passionate believer from a disturbed and non-christian background. It did not take very long for him to mellow to a more lukewarm Christian and in some sense, I followed his lead.

Several years into marriage we had our first baby, and pretty much immediately things changed. He went from lukewarm, not committed to actively questioning and hostile to the church and faith. I think he saw some of these things discussed on this blog, but instead of digging into the word and wrestling it out with God, he got bitter and disillusioned.

It was very hard to see this. There was an older Christian lady who befriended me and shared that her husband was unsaved until her youngest was in high school. She led me to study 1 Cor 7, especially these verses:

13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

And she reassured me that it was ok to have other children with him (I wasn't sure if it was ok) and that I was to love him, enjoy him and the hobbies he likes, and to have a good life with him. She also showed me the verses in 1 Peter 3 and told me to quit actively trying to convince him back to the faith. I will still talk to him about anything but if he brings it up.

Joy said...

Also I found the stories of Daniel and Joseph and Esther and others to be a huge encouragement. This was where I was called to be ministering daily, they did not choose their ministry either, but faithfully followed God.

This has been the struggle in my life that has taught me to really dig into Gods word, to abide in his strength and power.

The only thing that this lady taught me that I've just recently begun to think is wrong is this: she told me that in the Matthew 10 passage, it never says that God brings division between husband and wife. Here it is quoted:

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

So although my faith has grown over the past twelve years, I avoided making a stand on the things that would create division. Recently I've begun to see that this is not true. As I have refrained from things as convicted, it has created a lot of division. And I'm learning to not give way to fear, but continue loving and serving and submitting and being vulnerable but yet being unmovable in other ways. It is not easy and really takes abiding. Not sure if I have made myself clear.

Last thing, the abiding in the word and drawing close to God is so nessasary. There is not a clear cut rule for how to deal with these issues. Even in the Bible we see different models held up. Abigail who went against her husbands wishes, Sarah who obeyed, even unto entering the king's harem. Esther, who used much prayer and fasting and her womanly beauty.

I don't know how it will end. Sometimes I have shared in the reproach of Christ as he looks at me with coldness because of nothing other than my Christianity. I sincerely hope that I can remain married and that he and the children will come to love and follow The Lord. But I will continue to follow Jesus and keep my eyes on him.

Bible Believer said...

Anon, I don't think someone getting divorced while unsaved has that held over their head forever. This idea of divorcing people to undo old sins, troubles me deeply. What about them? What about the second spouses who get thrown away when someone who makes this decision, even to go be unmarried because the first is long gone or remarried themselves? I do not agree with this idea of divorcing a second time and adding sin to sin.

With the happy Christian family with his son showing up from his past, hopefully he has been honest with his wife and she will be kind enough to embrace his child. It is true sin can have consequences.

Joy I hope things work out and your husband is saved.

As folks here know, my husband is not saved. He has softened towards the gospel in my case, especially in the last few years and was supportive of my faith and knows about this blog and reads it. So I am in this position too. He is happy to be with me, so following 1 Cor 7, here I am too. In my case there has been no belligerence towards my religious beliefs and others so that has been a blessing. I know many women who are married to an unsaved husband, it is a whole other story.

I agree division will come even if you are peaceful with some. We have to hold to our convictions. I agree it does take abiding and can be complex. Sometimes you ask yourself if you have made the right decision or said the right words. I agree about not giving in to fear and keeping in prayer. Some husbands may be moved by love over the years. The Bible seems to speak of that. [1 Peter 3 1-2]

I pray you can remain married as well and that his heart changes towards God.

Anonymous said...

Bible Believer, the second spouses in that scenario aren't truly spouses. According to all the scriptures on this subject, such a union would be adultery. So yes, God would want them to forsake the adulterous relationship. It's no different than what He would expect from a gay couple who got "married" according to "the law of the land" prior to their salvation. If one of the so-called spouses in a so-called gay marriage came to saving faith in Christ, obviously they would have to repent of their relationship, even if that meant a divorce, even if they started a family together and even if children were involved. Because according to scripture it was never a legitimate marriage to begin with, just like remarriage after divorce is never a legitimate marriage and is always adultery.

So, please understand, it is not adding sin to sin. It is repenting, plain and simple. It would be adding sin to continue on in what God specifically calls adultery multiple times throughout the word.

Happy your husband is pleased to dwell with you. Praying for his salvation.

Bible Believer said...

I don't agree that someone will make it better having a SECOND Divorce and then decimating the lives of a second group of people. That is insanity. So a woman is going to deny her children their father? Most of the first spouses are long gone and in a new relationship so I see no purpose in someone in this scenario divorcing a second time. That is adding sin upon sin. I just don't get what this would accomplish especially in the cases where the first spouse is long gone and there is no chance for the first marriage to be reunited. One has to consider how their actions will affect others.

I do not consider the homosexual arrangements "marriages" so yes they need to repent. There are times where one cannot fix a sin without creating more harm and evil, I can't get the years back I spent in unbelief. Someone whose first spouse is long gone and then breaks up a second household thinking this is holy, is bringing just more pain and suffering to people. Its a complicated situation I know. Yes I am glad he is happy to live with me. Thanks for the prayers for his salavation.

Bible Believer said...

One thought to add to this too, wouldn't God had forgiven the first divorce especially if someone divorced as an unbeliever and then repented? There's too much damage and harm to be done to people's lives. Getting divorced a second time with no chance of reunification with the first spouse really has no purpose. God has more grace then that.

Kayfabe said...

A lot of variables go into some divorces. When there is abuse of any kind it is a form of departing. It also shows that the unbeliever (yes anyone that abuses their spouse is not a Christian) is not pleased to dwell with the believer. It is all about actions.not words. I would caution many here to have more compassion. Don't be like the those who were about to stone the woman caught in adultery. You guys are putting marriage as an idol and making divorce and remarriage an unpardonable sin which contradicts scripture. You guys are making Jehovah and His Son Jehoshua into unforgiving tyrants. That is not what I believe about our Father and His Son. Some people like to pass out grace to others like they are manhole covers but want that same grace passed to them like dimes. Walk a day in someone else's moccasins before condemning them.

Anonymous said...

Bible Believer, I'm afraid you are missing the point completely. Of course God can and will forgive a divorce. Forgiveness doesn't mean one can go on sinning that grace may abound. You have a problem with what scripture says. Scripture says remarriage while a former spouse is still alive is adultery. It is not marriage. Marriage is one man and one woman for life. God defines what marriage is, not man, and this is what he plainly says.

In a gay marriage situation, a family would also be decimated. What about when God told Abraham to harken to the voice of his wife to send Hagar and Ishmael away? Was God unrighteousness for decimating that family? Or was He still a gracious God so much so that Hagar named him, "Thou God seest me"?

It is not "adding sin upon sin", it is repenting from adultery. How will the actions affect others in a gay family? I know a gay couple who had children together and divorced ten years later. It tore their family apart. It destroyed them. Unfortunately it wasn't even for godly reasons. I hated seeing what those poor confused kids were going through. Now their parents are remarrying new people, totally unrepentant of their lifestyles.

There are biblical and practical solutions for those who desire them. One would not have to deny a parent or child their right to one another. But it would be sin to continue on cohabiting in adultery under the guise of marriage.

We all have a cross to bare. But he has promised to never leave us or forsake us.

God is far more gracious than you are giving him credit for.

Anonymous said...

Bible Believer - why do you wrest the scriptures?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 10:09,

Please, there is no such thing as "gay marriage" in the LORD'S Word, for it is a sinful, wicked and evil way that sayeth such a "union" exists. It is sin and what tore their family apart in the first place was their failure to repent and believe/trust on the LORD Jesus, the Christ for salvation. Divorce NEVER tore their family apart because their marriage was NOT a marriage in the sight of our LORD.

Gay couple are living in sin, as are couple that are fornicating without being married (this is a popular feature in the church system these days with NO PASTORS calling out these couples' sins.....and it isn't just young people shacking up any longer, its the older folks too!!!), and just as much as those churched couples, from the pastor on down, who are committing adultery with their eyes, thoughts, and physical bodies, all done in secret and behind closed doors. It is all sin our LORD knows the truth for nothing is secret from Him.

In today's American church, marriage between one woman and one man is not valued, nor is going to the marriage bed as a virgin valued amongst the churched.

Why is marriage not valued? Perhaps it is because the pastor and leadership do not want anyone to feel bad about being divorced, remarried, fornicating, or committing adultery.....it's church business as usual for nickels and noses are more important than celebrating a godly heterosexual marriage.

Sue Botchie said...

Dear Bible Believer and Friends, in Ezra 10 some of the men coming back from Babylon wanted to be right with the Lord and they divorced their pagan wives. Some of these divorcing couples had children together. A sad chapter, and nothing is said about whether the marriages were first or second marriages. Oh, and Esther not only married a divorced man, but a man who basically DITCHED his first wife because she refused to dance half naked for a bunch of drunken guys. Everyone in the kingdom knew Ahasuerus had sent this upstanding first wife of his packing, this divorce was no secret. Surely Esther knew the story. Does her marriage to the king make Esther an adulteress?