Thursday, March 19, 2015

Divide Over the Timing of the Rapture?

Should Christians divide over the timing of the Rapture? So eschatological timings should divide Christians? I was a bit surprised at Bryan Denlinger's of King James Video Ministries taking this position.

Eschatology can be complex, it takes study. New Christians and others may even take years of prayer and bible reading to arrive at conclusions. I do not hold the stance that eschatological stances should divide Christians except in the aspect of when they are connected to other false teachings such as Christian Zionism and Dominionism. There are saved people out there who hold to Pre-Trib but I pray they come to more truth with study.

 I was saved and believed in the Pre-Trib rapture for a short time. There are Christians who have a relationship with Jesus Christ who have been taught these things so much, that coming out of the fog of the world's messages about end times, takes time and leading by the Holy Spirit.

The majority of churches and teachers teach a pre-mill and tell people to look for a new "world leader" as the Antichrist. I hold even more so to the papacy being antichrist and a Pope as being The Antichrist.

To be frank, I think the Pre-Trib position was instituted by Rome more and more to take the heat off and to help set up world events and deceptions for the final antichrist kingdom. Study up on Francisco Ribera, who started the "point away from the Pope" games.

Those of us who reject and question the pre-trib Rapture, are fewer in number. Those who do not agree with a world millennial kingdom are rare. I noticed Denlinger in his beliefs does believe in a physical millennial kingdom on this earth.

"Soon Jesus will catch away his beloved church to be with him in heaven, so that they will be spared from the horrible outpouring of God’s wrath known as “the Great Tribulation”. (1 Corinthians 15:51-55 & 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) After this 7 year period of tribulation, Jesus will return to this earth to judge the nations (Matthew 25). Then Jesus will rule and reign PHYSICALLY in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, after which He will judge Satan and ALL of the unsaved living and dead at the Great White Throne Judgment. (Revelation 20:11-15)"

 Pre-Trib is popular, it is the teaching of every false teacher out there. A lot of people have not been happy with those of us who question pre-trib. I wrote this on another article when I had a disagreement with another pretrib blogger years ago:

"This is a big picture comment, I want all my readers to ask themselves why 90% of the false evangelical teachers out there all hold to Pre-Trib without reservation? Why is there not more variation out there? Given what I have exposed on this blog about Dominionism, Christian Zionism and the other NWO set-ups, why don't some see how false Pre-Trib teachings and dispensationalism have tied into all of them? If one studies even Protestantism of hundreds of years ago, the views were far more wide ranging then the emphasis, on Hal Lindsey inspired Bible prophecy? Why do we get so much more of the same from so many varying circles?"

I think this commenter where this video on Youtube appears was probably talking about my blog given our discussions of yesterday:

"FYI - there's this blog site I fellowshipped at for the last couple of years - for the most part, it's very fruitful...defends the KJB, exposes 501c3, exposes all of the wolves, exposes all of the evils in the world, etc.

But sadly, the blog site owner is anti-pre trib AND anti-futurist view. Especially in recent months, when this blog site owner tried to expose pre-trib/pro-Israel/pro-futurist eschatology, ultimately he just couldn't make any sense(ie-tried to tie these deceptions to Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, "Christian Zionism", etc).

It was yesterday when he posted a Chick Tracts video, and said how he doesn't agree with his pre-trib/pro-Israel stance. Then guess what...someone in the comments section(where we fellowship at) came in and started posting other blog links how Jack Chick and David Daniels are Jesuit infiltrators.

I skimmed through the blogs...however - 1) Most of what was written made no sense, and 2) Chick and Daniels were also called out as Jesuits b/c they happened to have a Futurist eschatology view. Seriously - if Chick and Daniels are Jesuits b/c they have a Futurist/7 year end times with AC head view - then using this logic, does this mean myself, bro Bryan Denlinger, and everyone else here on this comments section are Jesuit provacateurs too, b/c we support this same view? rolls eyes

Ultimately - like I said, that blog site has done a wonderful job contending for the faith - but sadly, b/c he doesn't hold to the pre-trib/futurist view, you see not only the leaven creeping in, but also potential false brethren brought in unawares as well."

Lest someone get confused, I do not believe everyone who is Pre-trib as a crypto-Jesuit laying in wait. There are sincere folks who are pretrib even if I disagree with them. Bryan Delinger may be among them. Sadly he believes I am hell bound for refusing the Pre-mill Rapture. I like many of his videos and even have posted them here but am disappointed by the hard stance with Pre-Trib. It shocked me to say the least.

With Chick, and by the way I had a fondness for the tracts and more, and have my own disappointment in even questioning the man, he definitely does believe in Christian Zionism!
 This tract equates every divide of secular Israel's land to disasters in America. While Chick is right about the Pope and others vying for Israel for the Antichrist Jerusalem kingdom of the end times, it promotes the Christian Zionist message. Look at this tract called "Love the Jewish People", Chick claims that England was blessed for standing by the secular nation of Israel and then cursed for not. The praise of Queen Victoria as a godly woman is odd as she was with the Church of England and definitely not a "born again Christian". The royals are part of the wicked elite, and this has not been just in recent history.

While there is truth about the Nazis, Pope and aspects of world history, the "support secular Israel at all costs" message is there.

Some may be sincere folks, but simply deceived by the Jesuit set-up. With Chick we cannot personally know but there are other issues with Jack Chick including the support of false teachers like Rebecca Brown.

Pre-trib Rapture teachings have set most of the confessing Christian church up for deception.

1. It points away from the Pope and serves the interests of Rome so the world plays look over there games, with a would be world leader taking the antichrist role. This is the most insidious thing about Darby and those who have set up the world to look away from Rome. In many ways this has helped the ecumenical movement with Rome as the Pope is lauded as a great moral teacher among all the fallen away teachers. Sadly even those like Denlinger who point to Rome as the harlot and understand aspects of it's evils can be corralled into the Pre-Trib trap.

2. It pushes false Christian Zionism. It ignores the fact that today's Judaism instead of the Judaism of Jesus's day is Talmudic and part of mystery Babylon. It ignores the fact that many of today's top rabbis are ecumenical servants to the Pope and helps the false gospel crowd like Hagee teach that Jews don't need Jesus to be saved. It obliterates the true meaning of Israel being the born again people of God--Jews who accept Jesus Christ as Lord included and replaces this truth with a United Nations founded secular nation that is run by the same wicked powers that the rest of the world is.

  3. It helps play cover up for the machinations of governments in the service of Rome. Why else are we seeing Christians praise Netanyahu, who rejects Jesus Christ? How else have they rounded up so many Christians to be unquestioning when it comes to globalist wars on terror and Middle Eastern wars? Most American Christians have cheered for the new "crusades".

4. These false teachings help corral most Christians into the right camp, the powers that be want them to be as the set up the final World War III show down. One can see Islam being aligned with the pseudo Caliphate being formed to be at odds with world "Christiandom"--Orthodox church in Russia, pro-secular Israel Dominionism Christian supporters in America and so forth. The Pope and his men are playing the world for suckers.

 Dominionism which I have warned about for years on this blog is intertwined at it's core with Pre-Trib teachings. Political insanities can even be pushed more as many hold faith in "escaping". Why else is America sleeping so deep?

5. The antichrist-temple rebuilders are gleeful over Pre-Trib delusions

6. False teachings about the millennial kingdom are setting up the world for deception in embracing the Antichrist. The counterfeit kingdom will be based with the focus on THIS earth. It is interesting to me about how so many are invested in THIS WORLD and live not for eternity.  Of course this will be set up with a false kingdom of Jerusalem. Even the Mormons believe in a physical millennial kingdom they call Zion to be upon this earth with a "New Jerusalem" headquarters in America.

Jesus told us: John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

As for God's wrath, I do not believe God's wrath is going to be poured upon saved Christians. Denlinger is making assumptions about those who reject the pre-trib position. God promises protection and comfort in tribulation for believers. Why else would Jesus have told us this?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Even if one speaks of things like Jacob's Trouble, if the lens is wrong, such as it being viewed via Pre-Trib and Christian Zionism, then things will be distorted. The lens has been distorted for millions via the false teachings which are rooted in Rome itself.  I believe scripture is correct about very hard times coming to Israel but when one elevates a secular nation that has rejected Jesus Christ mostly as being owed "blessings" and "favors from God" and unyielding support from Christians and does not understand the true Israel vs. the false Israel, they enter a place of severe confusion.

Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

One thing I want to warn here, do not let the eschatological terms confuse you.  I think the terms confuse. I read the Bible and let God's Word lead the way.  Many "post-tribbers" are even deceived by Rome and believe that we are to set up Christ's kingdom for Him and for His return. Reconstructionists are among those crowd. Obviously many churches are filled with deceived amillennials/preterists who believe all of Revelation has already "happened" except for the very end. That doesn't apply since I warn on this blog about the fulfillment of bible prophecy. They build a box for people saying you have to fit this description, think a bit outside the terms they have set up.

I am praying for Bryan Denlinger. I do not know if he has posted on Christian Zionism or even of his stance on Dominionism. I hope he sees this post and rethinks his stand on those rejecting a Pre-Mill/Pre-Trib Rapture as being hellbound people that worship a false christ. I hope he rethinks some of these things, and studies on how Darby deceived and how the world is being set up for satanic deception.



Rena said...

I know many people believe that there are "non-essential arguments" in the Bible, meaning those topics that we believe but that don't effect the method of or result of our salvation. And maybe there are...but I have to wonder, if a person's beliefs are not reflective of the amount of discernment that they allow the Holy Spirit to have in their lives. If someone is truly following God, then don't they believe what the Bible really says? For example, my husband was in a long discussion over this very topic with a retired pastor on FB. This pastor just could not let go of his ingrained beliefs regarding a pre-trib rapture. He could not understand why "post-tribbers" were so intent in destroying the hope of the Christian in looking forward to the return of Christ. No matter how much scripture my husband showed him as evidence. He chose to follow the typical formula for pre-tribbers ( I know, I did believe the same way at one time), cut and paste scriptures that are taken out of context. Explain what these scripture's mean instead of accepting them at face value and relying on outside resources to support his argument. He even suggested that my husband go read Tim LaHaye's books for the history, and timeline of the rapture! My point is this, if this pastor is wrong on his interpretation of scripture here on this topic, even if it is "non-essential", what else is he wrong about? How can his discernment of reading, interpreting and presenting the scriptures truly be trusted?

Bible Believer said...

I believe that the beliefs are reflective of our discernment as well. Is a person being led by the Holy Spirit? Because I know it took me time too, just like you in coming out of Pre-Trib beliefs, I give some grace in that I know a person could be still studying and being led. One thing I am deeply concerned about is how the Pre-Trib teachings are setting up people for the embracing of the Antichrist, and if they can't see through some of the delusions, with time and study such as Christian Zionism they are ripe for deception and it does bring their discernment into question. I am glad your husband tried to convince the pastor but I have seen those types too hold to pre-trib rapture at any cost. What concerns me is very few have the mindset of testing themselves and their beliefs according to God's Word. Denlinger--the man in the video has changed his mind on other topics like KJV only and I hope he is still open to the truth. I agree with the pastor your husband talked to how can their discernment be trusted. There are times I have said "I need more study" on an issue. It worries me that some do not have this mind set. They are not being good workmen.

II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

jl said...

Dear Saints,

Why did this poster go to man to validate their pretrib beliefs? Why not go to the scriptures directly? That preacher said that post tribbers are heretics. If jl is a heretic, then the Scriptures are heretical because that is where jl got her teachings from. Jesus taught post trib, so is Jesus also heretical? God forbid!

It is not a meek spirit to call post tribbers idiots. Looking at his videos, he exposes Steve Anderson. However, jl does not see a difference between the two, because they both use abusive words. Poster, if you are lurking, please do not trust this pastor. Please read God's word for yourself, and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to truth. I am praying for this poster.


jl, humble friend of Yeshua.

Eternally Home said...

Roy said,

To say that post-tribbers are hell bound is not scriptural. It is more like an adhominim attack.

Tim LaHaye is a proven false teacher. He had the pope being raptured in one of his books.

Just because we look for the Lord's return as it is written in Scripture, has no effect on our hope and trust in his sure return. They imply that we are taking away their hope because of our stance. Our hope in Jesus Christ cannot be shaken. Our faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ so, of course, we have hope in his return to receive us unto himself. Sadly, their attitude is that, if you are not with them as pre-trib then you are against them.

Steve B said...

Not taking into account the countless scripture that preaches against pre-trib, just the mere fact that the WORLD PROMOTES IT is reason for the theory to be suspect.

Books, movies, video games, etc. Why? If it's the truth, satan would want to hide it, so why is it so out in the open?

Deliberate deception that assumes man will live under a curse (Jer 17:5)

Kayfabe said...

I don't think there are too many Non essentials in the bible. That is what the watered down institutional death Churches say to get out of being obedient to scripture. There are brethren who are saved who believe Pre Trib but if they continue believing it they set themselves up for the Grand Delusion of the last days.

TruthVigilantee said...

Great post!
That is what I've been trying to get across for years. Yes, it takes time to come out of the fog. The pre trib sets people up to receive the antichrist and the 'kingdom' (NWO) via dominionism. The Lord lead me out of pre trib too via the bible. I notice also all the assumptions people make based on someone's 'package'. Just because I'm not pretrib does not mean I think God will pour out His wrath on believers. There are uh.... other alternatives. Look at Noah. He was here on earth. (Checkmark). He was a believer in the Lord. (checkmark). Wrath was poured out on the globe. (check). Noah was preserved and protected and no wrath was poured out upon him. (check!). They always misquote that one about 'we are not appointed to wrath' and 'keep us from the hour' and so on, but none of those verses imply a physical removal from the earth, Noah was 'kept' and 'not appointed to wrath,' and the list goes on. But there are plenty of verses for a non pretrib rapture. Matthew 24, 2 Thess. 2, and the timeline in 1 Thess. about the rapture and resurrection, and more.

Anonymous said...

Back when I was fifteen years old I worked for a rancher irrigating pastures, alfalfa, field corn for silage and doing other manual labor. One day I was given the task of clearing a good acre of thistles in a pasture with only a shovel. Some of the thistles were about 5 feet tall and as you know all you have to do is brush up against one of them and that part of your skin begins to burn. It was a warm day also and there were no trees in that particular pasture for shade. I had started out doing the work I had been given with some enthusiasm. But as the sun beat down on me I became thirsty so I sat down to drink some of the water that I had on hand. Then I began thinking about how warm it was and how difficult the work was and I sat there longer. I did not realize how long I had been sitting there when I heard a voice coming from behind me saying “what are you doing?” It was the voice of the owner. I immediately stood up and said that I had only been sitting for 15 minutes. The owner angrily told me that he had been watching me for 45 minutes!

I was not fired from my job. I went back to work clearing the thistles without any breaks the rest of the day, only stopping to take a sip of water and right back to work.

I believe this memory of what happened some 47 years ago was brought back by God as a reminder of what is going to happen when Jesus returns. It is also a reminder that Jesus has given me a job to do and I need to carry it out, no matter the difficulty. Is He going to find me working diligently or is He going to find me lying around bemoaning that the work is too hard and I am too hot or tired or sick to do this?

Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. Matthew 24:42

The work is not difficult. You do the will of the Father. That will is that all know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Father’s will is that we believe that Jesus died for our sins and that His shed blood covers those sins. The Father’s will is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ be taken to the whole world or even next door. The Father supplies you with all that you need to complete the task at hand, He gives you more than just a shovel. All you have to do to start is by reading the word of God. “2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”; approved unto God the Father, not man.

I don’t believe that we need to do an exhaustive study of what is going to happen during the end times. For one thing look again at the verse above from Matthew, do you really think that Jesus said that for no reason? We are not able to determine the day or year of His return. We are only told to watch. I think that if I am doing what the Father has asked then I will hear the trumpet sound and look up and see Jesus coming in the cloud and then be changed in an instant and be taken up to that cloud. Then the workday will be over.


jl said...

Dear Joel,

You inspire me. I am always humbled by your wisdom. Please pray for me.


jl, humble friend of Yeshua.

Anonymous said...

dear Galatians 4 do you support post-trib rapture.

Anonymous said...


Thank you for your kind words, but in no way am I wise. Any and all praise belong to Jesus. I have a Doctorate in messing up, but the word of God has become very real and alive to me and I can hear His voice as I continue reading and re-reading. I have written you into my prayer journal. Please remember me when you pray also.


Bible Believer said...

Roy I agree, I think it is stretching things to say that post-tribbers are all hell-bound and no one is saved.

I agree about Tim LaHaye and I remember when he had the Pope raptured in the Left Behind series, I read those books. Read God's Wrath on Left Behind for even more of the errors within those books.

I agree if one hopes in Jesus Christ why should the timing make another unsaved. I think some definitely have listened to too many of the false pre-trib teachers.

They are even changing the definition of what it means to be born again in Jesus Christ if they believe that rejecting the pretrib rapture pushes someone into hell.

I am sure there are born again Christians who don't even know what pre-trib means.

Bible Believer said...

Joel I agree. We are to "work for the harvest" at the direction of God. I sometimes wonder if this pre-trib rapture stuff is being sold into American society so well, because no one wants to die. Of course as Christians we all hold to God's promise of eternal life but to some of these folks it's all like a movie, they never will have to die and the "pre-trib" rapture will whisk them away. We don't know the hour of the Lord's return and even if I warn here about signs and bible prophecy, there is no guarantee that you will be among the people who are still "living" during the Lord's return. If anything we have to make sure to do the will of the father and not faint. We are to believe in faith and be born again in Him. I do not see God giving theology quizzes for entrance into heaven. Now some of the ecumenical and interfaithers carry that idea too far of course I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, but to start casting people into hell for rejecting various aspects of the eschatology is dangerous territory. I believe the Holy Spirit will show us things in prayer, but this takes time and study, there are things I still desire to study and to learn too.

I agree we are to watch and wait and attend to the Lord's business.

Anonymous said...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6”

There is no “pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib” mentioned in the scriptures as to our salvation. It is faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross that is our salvation.

Any preacher or teacher that speaks any other gospel is to be shunned.

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1: 8-9”


jl said...

Dear Joel,

I most certainly will.


jl, humble friend of Yeshua

Anonymous said...

Hi Bible Believer,

I have to say that I see no other possibility than to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will one day physically return to earth from heaven and reign upon the earth for 1000 years before God dissolves the universe and creates new heavens and a new earth. A careful reading of Revelation 19 and 20 leaves me with no other option. Yes, I agree that numerous cults and false teachers distort the idea of a millennial reign of Christ upon this physical earth. And that the anti-christ may well make similar claims. A former anti-christ, Adolph Hitler, did indeed prophesy a 1000 year reign of his new world order of a Third Reich. Nevertheless, because Revelation 19 and 20 are so clear and explicit, I have to conclude that the real Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, will indeed reign on the earth for a millennium prior to the physical establishment of the New Jerusalem upon the new earth. I have never agreed with a pre-trib rapture. I understand the rapture as taking place with the physical return of Christ from heaven at the last trumpet sound. When He returns to earth in the Second Coming the rapture will take place. Second Thessalonians 2 is for me a simple and clear description of the sequence of events in which the Man of Sin is revealed, he creates the abomination of desolation, he is destroyed at the physical return of Christ, and both the dead in Christ are resurrected and those alive in Christ are made physically immortal...together caught up to be with Him in the air as He returns. So while there are many deceptions and counterfeits regarding Christ,His return, and his 1,000 year reign, nevertheless it is also true that the real Lord Jesus Christ will physically return to earth through the clouds and indeed reign upon this present earth. If you still think this interpretation of Scripture is mistaken, then please give a Scriptural reason for why you disagree.

Do you interpret something different from Revelation 19 and 20?

God bless,

Christ Follower.

Anonymous said...

you are missing the big picture, its not a discussion over prophecy.
Bryan Dellinger is a cult teacher.
It is called dispensationalism, this is the the thought that goes hand in hand with zionism.

Point 1 there is no future 70th week of Daniel,dispensationalists call this the 7 year tribulation or time of Jacobs trouble.

Repeat this is not a discussion over prophecy, dispensationalists are a completely different religion, they are zionists.
Dispensationalists fundamental teaching is that there is a distinction between the church and Israel. The New testaent teaches the church is Israel. For this reason they moved the 70th week into the future, and made up a rapture to remove the church so God can go back to the Old covenant with physical Israel.
You are also confusing the millenium which is biblical to be some kind of deception. The Bible is clear in revelation that there will be a 1000 year period AFTER the second coming,the deceivers want to build a counterfeit kingdom beforehand. But that does not mean the millenium is not biblical. And calvinists don't believe in the millenium.
Bryan Dellinger twists scripture and lies. Took me ten seconds to figure that out.

RTHORNE said...


Bible Believer said...

I will check out your video

I do not believe in a pretrib rapture, all the false preachers endorse it with few exceptions.

The world is spiritually blind, you got that part right.

Anonymous said...

[This unique treatment of the Second Coming was discovered on the net. - - - Steven]


by Dave MacPherson

In a recent dream of mine I saw things that even John Bunyan didn't dream about in his "Pilgrim's Progress."

I was walking down a remote dirt road and came by an old store with a sign that said "Second Coming Store - Established in 1830."

I opened the door and spotted the elderly owner standing next to shelves covered with many bottles filled with liquids.

"What are you selling?" I asked.

"Second Coming perfume," he said.

He quickly explained: "Our first and most popular perfume is called 'Rapture.' It doesn't have much substance but smells better than our other perfumes."

"How was 'Rapture' invented?," I asked.

He responded: "Well, the 'gather' in Matt. 24:31 was 'borrowed' in 1830 and when it was quietly transferred to a pretrib setting it became much more fragrant and 'Rapture' became its new name."

I also noticed the other bottled perfumes.

Evidently reading my mind, he explained that after "Rapture" came out in 1830, other perfumers realized they'd have to stretch forward other ingredients found in other parts of the Olivet Discourse in order to make "Rapture" even more acceptable.

His other "Rapture"-supporting perfumes were in bottles labeled "Unknown Day & Hour," "One Taken & the Other Left," "Thief in the Night," and "His Elect" (Olivet Discourse "elect" was originally "Church" but later changed to "Israel").

I wondered why the store owner didn't have some other Olivet Discourse perfumes like "Sun & Moon Darkening," "Falling Heavenly Stars," "Sudden Destruction," and "Jerusalem Touchdown" which could also be placed in a pretrib setting.

He said: "I could never sell the four perfumes you just mentioned!"

I asked: "Why not? They're in the same Discourse."

He blushed and said: "Folks would smell a rat!"

Well, I finally woke up from my dream. If you think my dream was just a dream, then you are dreaming!