Thursday, February 12, 2015

Jim Brown Teaches Demons Don't Really Exist!




Jim Brown of Grace and Truth Ministries Exposed.

I do not know the religious beliefs of the author--[hope he is not a Calvinist too] but I am seriously concerned about any teacher that teaches demons are not real. This is entering into EXTREME HERESY and abandoning the faith as given to the saints.



I saw a lot of other errors on his website but that one alone is to tell everyone to stay away. One technique many false teachers will use is to wrest scriptures into meaning something else. They either do this via their own special translations or changing the words themselves maybe even using Greek and Hebrew translations that are FALSE.  This was a technique I noticed that was used by Lew White and pals taking Hebrew which most people are not educated in and changing the meaning of words, to add to confusion.

 He claims that demons are simply "self" and not true entities. With that teaching he actually plays footsies with the Buddhists whose entire religion is based on annihilation of the self to seek Nirvana. He sounds like my Unitarian Universalist pastors who told me that demons are not real and that they were cultural precepts based on superstition and the lack of science. There is no explanation why manifestations of demons and spirits and possessions directed by witchdoctors are numerous in so many world cultures. Is he trying to compete with Joseph Campbell of PBS fame?



If someone has to write complicated charts, they are busy trying to fool you and do a snow job. I may review one of the videos later like the one below and update this article, but to an hour and 40 minutes commitment for just one video is a lot of time. Maybe I will get to it later today, to point out more. You probably can just skim through to get the gist. The description [in red] is bad enough. I already know he is a false teacher because he goes against scripture itself. Supposedly unclean spirits do not exist according to this guy.

And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,



"Demons' are not entities as defined by modern christian establishments. Scholar and minister Jim Brown analyzes Textus Receptus scripture and factors first century culture and custom to reveal what 'demons' actually are. The truth is shocking for most people. Part 1 of series."


Update comments: **********************************************
I skipped ahead to the 31:57 minute mark, this is when he starts talking about demons.

"If you can't hear what I am going to tell you about demons, if you can't hear what I am going to tell you about demons, then you can't hear what the bible says then by all you are stupid or "idiotos". Talk about mental manipulation!

He breaks down the word demon to diablos and then die and ballos.

I don't buy the word break-downs. I have only studied some Spanish but die and ballos mean other things in other languages. Die even means "the" in German. One could come up with all sorts of monkey-business translating words and breaking them into pieces. Ballos does not mean a ball, it means "dance" in other languages. Baile means DANCE in Spanish

When he says "If you refuse this you are stupid", he is massively manipulating!

Trying to claim Jesus was speaking slang or popular mode of speech is nonsense. A total lie, Jim Brown says of Jesus Christ: "He would never admit that a man had a demon":

Oh really?

Matthew 12:43-45King James Version (KJV)
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
 


The "casting out of fortunes" is nonsense too.  This Greek dictionary says it means possessed. I googled the term daimonid and found nothing saying it meant "casting of fortunes". Diamond was the closest word. Did Jews call their sins demons? How would that work since Jews in the time of Jesus did not speak English? I'd like to see that one proven.

Does Jim Brown consider himself a Christadelphian? His teachings MATCH THEIRS almost exactly.

"The previous two sections have explained why we do not believe the devil or satan to be a personal being or a monster. If we accept that there is no such being, then it surely follows that demons, who are held to be the servants of the devil, also do not exist."

I heard enough and watched the video from 31:57 to 38:51.

*****************************************************************************
One thing, many can use intellectual knowledge to deceive the simple. My years of sitting in the UU church with giant intellectual snow jobs using every field from anthropology to sociology to biology to reject Jesus Christ and His gospel were enough to forewarn me.

The Holy Spirit will warn all true believers to steer clear, but sadly here you see scripture being wrested using the trick of redefining words. Remember the Jesuits and their constant casuistry? Deceivers always play the game of saying "Hath God said?"




70 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thank you Bible Believer for warning about this heretic. I refuse to listen to his sermons.I admit that I am week and easily fall for things. I have to take heed lest I fall.
I know that a lot of Christians are that way.
I don't want anyone to be deceived by his 'many' words.

Faith

texaswildflower said...

THANK YOU FOR THIS POST. I noticed another blogger recently posted a long article promoting this exact Jim Brown teaching, and it made me very concerned. I've never heard of Jim Brown nor the Christadelphians till now, but agree this is a dangerous teaching. The blogger was also promoting heavy predestination teaching.
I am starting to wonder if denial of spiritual warfare (Biblical, not hyped-up NAR stuff) goes hand in hand with Calvinist-type beliefs. I guess if you think everything is predestined by God, there is no need for your worldview to account for demons (since God is the ultimate author of both good and evil, and humans choose evil - e.g. "self" - only because He wills for them to!).

LenaMarie said...

"I am seriously concerned about any teacher that teaches demons are not real. This is entering into EXTREME HERESY and abandoning the faith as given to the saints."

How is having a different understanding concerning demons/devils a extreme heresy and abandoning of the faith?

What are the foundational principles of the faith? Hebrews Ch.6 gives us a pretty good idea but it says nothing about demons and devils. This subject is not really anywhere in scripture explained or expounded upon, I think if it was of utmost importance for the believer to understand it would have been addressed more specifically.

texaswildflower said...

LenaMarie, I do see where you are coming from in that Scripture does not give us an explicit doctrine that outlines how the spiritual powers operate. But in the gospels, the fact that Yeshua casts out demons is critical. It's evidence that shows Him to be the Son of YHWH and the Anointed One. He showed He has power over the natural world (winds and waves), the spiritual world (demons), health and disease (healing the sick), and sin and death (forgiving sins, raising the dead). Maybe the subject is not addressed more specifically in Scripture because the writers assume we already know demons exist, so they can go on to explain other matters (e.g. James 2:19 - mentions demons, but is really about faith and works).

Anonymous said...

Lena Marie,
If this teaching is true, then Jesus would have had to tempt himself in the wilderness.
Also, the unclean spirits spoke to Jesus. And He would speak to them.

Mark1:23- 26- And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24- Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25- And Jesus rebuked him, saying. Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26- And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Acts 16:16-18- And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed withal spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying :
17- the same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18- And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved,turned and said to the spirit , I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Why would the damsel's 'self' be a he? Why wouldn't her 'self' be a she?
Because it says she was possessed!!

When people try to convince you that devils are not real, it is because they are trying to discredit the bible and deceive you.

So every believer since the gospel has been preached that can see the scriptures plainly explain to us that devils are real, have gotten it wrong?
And now after 2,000 years this man comes along and figures out what the bible meant all along?
I think not!!!!!

Faith

Bible Believer said...

Thank you Faith and Anon for those verses and backing me up. It is definitely deceivers preaching lying doctrines like this.

Bible Believer said...

Texas wild flower, I may go look up a video about Christadelphians and post it here. I knew of their existence but it is like the Swedenborg, I haven't had the time to cover them yet. I never have met anyone in that religion but know one Swedenborg online. Jim Brown has heavy Calvinist inspired teachings as well on his website. They seem to be an extreme opposition to Pentecostals. I wouldn't doubt the denial of spiritual warfare goes hand in hand with Calvinism. The idea of an "elect" denies spiritual warfare. You are just born to be 'saved' and the lost were born to be cast into hellfire according to these false teachings.

Anonymous said...

Last night I read from Jonah. The LORD rebuked Jonah cause he was upset over the gourd.

Jonah4: 10-11- Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle.

The LORD rebuked Jonah for his lack of compassion and empathy for the city of Nineveh. Some people have no discernment yet, they are still on the milk. We are to be patient with those who are not able to discern their right hand from their left hand.
As in :
2 Timothy 2:23-26- But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24- And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25- In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26- And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It is like with our children, they will try to jump in the deep end of the pool, but we know they are not ready. So we keep them in the shallows till they are experienced enough to handle the deep. The Lord knows us better than our own selves. So He knows of we are ready and will peradventure give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. That they may recover THEMSELVES out of the snare of the devil.


Hebrews 5:14- But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So what of those who are on the meat, and are able to discern, and choose to deceive?

2 Timothy 4: 3-4 - For te time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, And shall be turned unto fables.

Those who follow the teaching of Jim Brown lust after knowledge.

2 Corinthians 11:3- But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4- For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye recieve another spirit, which ye have not recieved, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

They twist the scriptures to feed their ego, which according to Jim Brown is a devil.
So by his own admission he and his followers have devils in them.

We are to mark those who have discernment and choose to deceive. They are wolves. And they are not of us!

Faith




LenaMarie said...

@texaswildflower Is it possible that in ancient times there were mental/physical conditions that those people had no explanation for so they attributed it to spirits and demons? We still see this today in primitive tribes who remain superstitious. The Pharisees could not explain how Jesus had the power to do what he did , they were baffled so what did they attribute his power to have come from? Demons/devils.

Why does it matter if it is demons or something else? Jesus still demonstrated He had authority over it even if man in it's wisdom of the day had no explanation for it other than spirits.

Why is it so important an issue that people will revert to calling someone a heretic for simply looking into these matters a little more deeply that just blind acceptance of the common christian tradition?

@ Faith, you make the assumption that Satan and his angels are the same as demons. Even though we have no indication of that in scripture. I believe Christ was speaking to Satan an angel in the wilderness but I do not believe angels even fallen ones possess men. I know some believe that Satan himself possessed Judas but close reading is important. What do all of the scriptures say about this matter? I think some diligence will show that this common belief is untrue.

So what are demons? I do not yet have an answer on this matter but I am not going to allow tradition to keep me from searching out understanding. The Lord is not offended by our questions by our searching. Jacob wrestled with God for the blessing...

Unknown said...

Lena Marie, the Bible names Satan, so we know he exists. It also names fallen angels, so we know they exist. Jesus spoke of demons, so we know they exist. They belong to another dimension and are primarily spiritual. The Bible speaks of supernatural, spiritual things that are not immediately visible, but exist beyond our comprehension. You have not seen God at any time, but you believe he exists, and the only way we know who he is, is by His word. Even if we look at the created order, we can tell some things about God, but the only way we can know His character and personality is by His word. If you do not trust His word and what He has already said, you cannot know Him, in fact, there is nothing you can know because all knowledge and wisdom come from Him. If you cannot believe that He is able to preserve His word, and make it available for people to know and find, then He is not God and we should not even bother. But He is God, He is able, and He is trustworthy. I will take the word of the one who died and rose again, fulfilling His own promise, beyond any other source. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His word! "T"

Anonymous said...

Demons may or may not be fallen angels, but they are certainly real beings. The demons would fall under Ephesians 6:12, along with fallen angels.

A mental illness or physical condition would not talk. A mental illness or physical condition won't call itself Legion while Jesus sends it into pigs. These demons talked to Jesus. Mental illness and physical conditions don't give you supernatural powers. But demon possession can. The supernatural only comes from two sources, God and the Devil and his minions.

It doesn't require much common sense to see that demons are real beings. A person can argue about them being fallen angels or not, but there is no argument about them being real beings.

The bible treats them as real beings, not as some mental illness or physical conditions. Altho, they can certainly cause physical and mental issues.

The bible is not primitive, it comes from God, and God knows what he is talking about.

One minor note. Why do some people call Jesus Yeshua? His name in the KJV is Jesus. And God's name is Jehovah. It always sounds hebrew roots to me to use Yeshua or put down YHWH for God.





Anonymous said...

Lena Marie,
Is it possible that a lot of mental illness / physical conditions could be devils ? I am not saying that all mental illness and physical condition is devils, but many could be.
Scoffers like Dr. Phil try to attribute everything to mental illness. And I have seen some people on that show that could definetly be possessed by several unclean spirits. The problem is with the" ever learning and never able to come to the truth" people. Science has explained away everything, including the supernatural.
Now even the pedophiles get a pass, cause they have a chemical imbalance, and were " born that way"
I lived in sin before the Lord saved me. I know that devils are real ! And I'm sure many others could say the same.

The definition of a heretic is:
a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

It is generally accepted by Christians that devils exist. So for someone to teach that they don't, it makes them a heretic.

I am praying for you Lena, be careful in your quest for Truth. It can lead you into more deception when you begin to lean on your own understanding.

Faith

texaswildflower said...

@LenaMarie, I assume you are a fellow believer sincerely seeking truth and not someone come just to muddy the waters about Jim Brown's teachings. Re: heresy, I don't agree with BB's choice of word. Re: fallen angels vs. demons, I think it's fair to make a distinction. That doesn't mean demons don't exist.

If Jesus did not cast out actual demons, why then do we have the witness of multiple Scriptures that He not only did so (in the words of the authors, who did not correct the record to say "the people thought it was a demon that He cast out"), but affirmed from His mouth that an "unclean spirit" was what He was dealing with? http://biblehub.com/concordance/d/demon.htm for a list for easy reference.

Was YHWH in the flesh ignorant enough to go along with the "superstitions" of the crowd, rather than correct their error and tell them, "You think your son is possessed by a spirit, but his REAL problem is 'SELF'!"? Or "His real problem is ergot spores in the rye bread" (a hypothesis used to explain the Salem witch trials)? He surely didn't waste time correcting the Pharisees on everything else they got wrong --- especially blind adherence to the traditions of men. These people thought washing their hands made them more clean before God! Come on. How much more superstitions can you get? Yet He didn't correct them about demons.

If you are looking for evidence and explanation that does not come from a presumed fake like Bob Larson, I can totally relate. I'm a grad student in the social sciences and constantly deal with questions like this (e.g. can science prove the supernatural doesn't exist). I hope you are not here to confuse people about Jim Brown or the validity of the Bible. As BB said, many use science to pull off "giant intellectual snow jobs" and destroy people's faith in the Living Savior.

texaswildflower said...

BB, I am looking forward to your post on the Christadelphians.

Anonymous said...

To LenaMarie

KJV Luke 8:26-31

And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee. And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

In this passage of scripture we have Jesus being confronted by a legion of un-clean spirits. And when I use the word “legion” I am saying that there were many. Un-clean spirits or demons they controlled all mental and bodily functions of this young man. What more proof do you need about demons or un-clean spirits?

Joel

Anonymous said...

To LenaMarie

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:11-12 KJV

You said “Is it possible that in ancient times there were mental/physical conditions that those people had no explanation for so they attributed it to spirits and demons?”

This is not a valid argument in light of the scriptures, the word of God in inerrant.

Joel

Anonymous said...

This whole thing really makes me sad. Mom4Truth started the whole holiday war at the N4TM blog which resulted in N4TM quitting her blog. I really liked her and her blog.

During that discussion, Mom4Truth said (quote), "And, without fail, the familiar spirits come out shouting “Legalism!” and “Pharisee!” and “Liberty” and “Conscience!” and “Romans 14:5!” 6 years in and the one-liners are still the same. "

A few weeks ago, she was talking about familiar spirits, but now who is calling it all "SELF"? I do not understand. I do not claim to know a lot about spiritual warfare, demons, or witchcraft, but I believe the Bible about it. I've seen a few strange things in my life, and seen some news headings that I would attribute to modern day unclean spirits.

So, Mom4Truth started a big controversy over there, joined in the continuing discussion over here, and as a result gained more readers of her blog, and then started in with heresy to confuse and mislead. It makes me sad and angry.

Slightly off topic but related: I recently saw a sentence in something I read that talked about both the pilgrims and the puritans persecuting the anabaptists in early America, and spent some time last week researching all three. The Dominionist movement, the Reformed, and many of the strongly predestination crowd has their theological roots in the pilgrims or the puritans. It was an interesting study.

All the deception and different tangents out there make me sad. Sincere people, loving God, wanting to follow his word, really have to be careful. Anonymous on Feb 14 said ,"One minor note. Why do some people call Jesus Yeshua? His name in the KJV is Jesus. And God's name is Jehovah. It always sounds hebrew roots to me to use Yeshua or put down YHWH for God." My take on it is that some people want to remember Jesus as closely to accurate as possible, as a Jewish man, and using that helps them. Other people use it because they are into Hebrew Roots, which I recently found is strongly pre-trib rapture and rather legalistic. As I have read the Bible, I have often wondered about the Sabbath and longed for six days of hard work and a planned day of rest, reading, and prayer. But 7th Day Adventists are a trap too. Stay the narrow way, in prayer and in God's word as much as you can. Try to apply it to your life prayerfully. All the "abide" parables and verses are key. And all the passages explaining grace (Galatians and Ephesians).

Don't let another teacher boil it down for you, because some things in the bible are complex, or even may seem a bit contradictory to our human brains. Wrestle it out for your self, trusting, abiding, letting God's word seep into your life, your mind, and your heart. "You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and forever. Amen." 2 Peter 3:17-18

Joy


Unknown said...

I have to say I agree with BB that heresy is the word to use here, because Jim Brown and Mom4truth have both veered into denying what the Scripture says, and that is heresy. This is not just a potato/potata argument, and they call others who do not agree with their denial "Idiotes" and separate from them.
She herself said that the comments were a place to discuss ideas and dialog, however, she turned the comments off on her blog. She was more than willing to press her point with N4TM even though she was asked to leave. I actually agree with her about the holidays, but she is using truth as a wedge and a snare to trap people by hiding behind that truth with lies. There are many deceptions out there, and you cannot just go along to get along, we are to contend for the faith. That often can make us very unpopular, but by upholding truth, God is glorified. When someone says something true, we should affirm that. When someone lies or tries to equivocate, that should be quickly pointed out. I have had people who were willing to tell me the truth when I was in error, and I praise God for them, because it was done lovingly and from Scripture and helped me to recover myself. I would rather be corrected. All things must be held up in the light of God's Word, and no matter how "nice" someone is, if they are encouraging something evil and wicked, they must be warned. Test all things, hold fast that which is good. :) "T"

texaswildflower said...

@Anon 2:43, yes, it is sad. I wanted to give M4T the benefit of the doubt, but even before her Jim Brown post it was clear something was not right. There was not good fruit coming from her.

You are exactly on point regarding the Puritans and Dominionists. Funny how the Puritans are the ones people (of the David Barton ilk) like to point to as evidence that America was founded as a "Christian nation."

Re: Hebrew Roots, I'm curious to know where you came across pre-trib thinking, as that is news to me. The Hebrew Roots folks I've known are staunchly anti-rapture, as are all the HR blogs I've checked out. Are you referring to Christian Zionism rather than Hebrew Roots? The two do overlap quite a bit; for instance, John Hagee (Christian Zionist) and Mark Biltz (Hebrew Roots) both came out with a book on the supposed "blood moons" and I think may have spoken together on some TV show.

Also, you don't have to be part of the HR or the SDA cult to keep the Sabbath. If you are reading the Bible and find your heart drawn to the Sabbath, then maybe the Father is calling you to keep it. Don't let man judge you, just follow Him. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and the day of rest is His gift to us when we can enter into His peace without distraction. I have a more peaceful week when I rest with Him on the seventh day.

texaswildflower said...

Oops, I meant Anon 12:56. Sorry, Joy!

texaswildflower said...

"T," I guess I try to avoid using the word "heresy" because of its history and associations (e.g. the RCC calling people "anathema" for denying dogmas that aren't even in the Bible - opposite of what BB meant by it!). I understand BB was trying to show this is serious and not potato/potato. Myself, I would have used a different word, myself, or just said "Jim Brown contradicts Scripture."

LenaMarie said...

I have noticed a trend over the last few days while going over these post. First, is that somehow any believer who desires truth is in danger. If they want to turn the light on they may end up in darkness. If they ask their Father for bread they may get a stone, or if they ask for a fish they may get a snake.

It is very easy get the idea from the statements expressed here that it is better to be without knowledge, without understanding, for there is security in blindness and ignorance. In darkness there is light.

Further, one individual insinuated that anyone who desires knowledge and understanding is wicked and a wolf. Knowledge and understanding is not evil. It is required. It is not good to be senseless children without understanding.

It reminds me of Christ speaking to the Jews of His day. They thought by seeking out the scriptures they would have life but that life comes not from the scriptures but from Christ. You can know and quote scripture through and through and not know God, not understand His nature and character, rejecting those who are of Him are receiving those who are not.

All of you love to quote scripture but you have left me wondering if you really understand what it is you are affirming, do you really know the God the scripture points to? Or are you like the Jews of Christ day thinking you understand and saying "We see" and yet in blindness and missing the point?

Are you like Jobs friends misrepresenting God while declaring "Hear me, for I speak wisdom" but all the more revealing what you affirm is merely the tradition of men passed down concerning the Father and His ways which are in error?

You know what traditions do? They imprison you. That is what I see here. People who are imprisoned. Afraid to think, to reason, to understand. If you truly know God and believe upon Christ then why do you fear?

I see fear here, fear is a lack of love, lack of trust in the Father. You have a tendency to demonize that which you are afraid of. I am not a follower of Jim Brown in fact I had never even heard of him until BB made this post but I am not afraid to hear him out. I trust my Father, I know I am mature enough in the faith to weigh out such things and examine them myself. I have done so many, many times. My faith has only increased. Yes, my faith has been tested at times but that testing has strengthened me in a way I never could have been otherwise. I have nothing to fear because I trust in the Lord.

Lastly, there is quite a bit of presumption and accusation among you and some find the need to put people in ideological boxes and use labels rather than just deal with them and their statements and beliefs on a individual basis.
This is inconsiderate especially among brethren.

I think to some up overall I observe a lack of trust/faith in God among you. This is why presumptions, accusations, pride, and fear seems to permeate your conversation.

Anonymous said...

To Texas Wildflower: I looked for the site that was Hebrew Roots and pretrib but can't find it, or they changed the look of their blog so I don't recognize it. I'm not an expert.

I have some times tried a bit for sabbath rest and baked muffins the day before and set up the crockpot but then my husband usually undermines it by watching Lord of the Rings with the children or something else not really appropriate. Right now there are usually three or four hours on Sunday where my husband takes the older children away and I only have my two youngest, so I set them up with play dough and get a longer chance for prayer and reading the bible and praying.

I do actually feel drawn to honoring the sabbath, and to refraining from holidays, and from getting rid of the television too. But I'm in a delicate situation. I am persecuted for my faith by my husband. Never abused, never physically threatened, and he wants to stay married, but I'm often made fun of, and held to higher and higher standards of what I must get done and what I must make the children achieve. If I have time to read my bible for 30 min every morning, then I should have time to do XYZ. If I can't make the children achieve excellence, talking often well above their age level, maybe I shouldn't get to homeschool them anymore. And after this last year trying to way cut back on Christmas, he was very unhappy with me and wants me to do family picture cards next year, and me to do a better job at the gift purchasing. He wants to delegate it to me. And when I really make a stand on things I won't watch on tv with him, such as stuff about vampires or occult type themes, I can feel the negativity like a thick fog, even if he compromises and puts on a home improvement show or a less bad movie. And if I say you just watch by yourself today and go in the other room to read, that is even worse. The spiritual battle in our home is fierce.

I still read the bible in front of him, pray with the children, post bible verses all over the house, but some of these other issues I don't always know what to do. I'm trying to love and respect and serve him but still remain holy and protect the children.

So that is where I'm coming from and a bit of my struggle. If anyone has encouragement or advise or places I should read, let me know. I'm not in a place where legalism or the piling on of things helps me, I already feel like the Isrealites being forced to gather their own straw for the making of bricks from the demands of my husband. God is so good though and I know his burden is light.
Joy

Steve B said...

Demons don't exist? That either makes Jesus skitzo (since He called them by name) or this guy a false prophet.

I am going to go with this guy as a false prophet.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of demons, BB I bet you do not remember this; www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1FWXm-8FGs - Don

Anonymous said...

" Myself, I would have used a different word, myself, or just said "Jim Brown contradicts Scripture"

Texaswildflower, that's what the word heresy means, to contradict official beliefs.

Anonymous said...

Lena,

You are right , I am afraid. I fear the Lord!

And I trust the many scriptures that tell me I should take heed.

1Cor. 10:12- Wherefore let him that thinkers he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Matthew 24:4- And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Hebrews 2:1- Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should slip.

Luke 11:35- Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Luke 21:8- And he said, take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

1Cor. 3:10- According to the grace of God which is given to me, as a masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another builder thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.



1 Tim. 4:16- Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, ad them that hear thee.

2 Peter 1:19
Deut 11:16
Mark 13:23
Malachi 2:16

I fully trust the Word of God, and I have faith that He will teach me what He wants me to know,through His Word.

How are the people on here adhering to traditions because we plainly can see that the word of God says devils are real.
It seems that you would be the one turning unto fables.

And it takes faith and trust to say," Lord I believe what you say in your word."

But the serpent whispers in the ear of the haughty, "Yea hath God said."

Faith

Anonymous said...

Joy,

I'm sorry that you are in a house that is divided. My husband is a God fearing man, but I see compromise at times, like w cartoons and tv. And sometimes he can be really harsh, cause he does not take it lightly when a woman tries to rule him. So instead of nagging him over things I know that I have already expressed concern with, I pray!
I pray for him, and I trust the Lord. Its hard for me to keep my mouth shut, but I remember the scriptures that the Lord provided for wives. Like 1 Peter 3

1- Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that , if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2- While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3- Whose adorning let it be not be that outward adorning of plaiting the haier, and wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4- But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruprtible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God a great price.

I know its hard, and from what you have written it seems that you are doing everything correctly. Keep praying, and seeking the Lord. He is so faithful. And read over the scriptures He gives us as wives.

I think that it is great that he allows you to homeschool, and study the scriptures.
That's a good start Joy.

As far as holidays, I would approach him as Esther went before the king. Find favor and gently make your plea. I would pray and fast prior.

I am praying for you and your family. I want you to know you are not the only one. My husband is the one who was against holidays and he knew truth. I fought him over it. He was right all along. But, I did come around. He just prayed for me, and I came around.
Don't give up hope.

1 Cor. 7 :16-For what knowest thou, O wife whether thou shalt save thy husband?

Faith

texaswildflower said...

Joy, wow, I'm so sorry to hear you face that daily battle with your husband. I've taken a bit of criticism from my family, but for the most part they are understanding or at least try to respect the fact that I do things differently. I honestly think continuing to come to BB's blog would give you a lot of encouragement. That's one of the amazing things about the true Body...we may not all walk the same walk (I'm not saying "anything goes," of course, but just that He has each of us at a different place in our growth and learning), but we can still lift one another up when things are hard. I personally feel that BB is a mature believer who has a lot to share, and when she shares her struggles, it does encourage the rest of us. At least, it does me. Please hang in there, Joy, and do not give up. There are many things you want to do that you can't right now, the Sabbath being only one of them, but rest assured that the Lord sees your heart!

jl said...

Dear Saints

I can see where both sides are coming from. LenaMarie believes that when we use the word "heresy", it should be applied to the anything contrary to the foundational faith. That foundational faith is listed in Hebrews 6. Demons are not listed.

However, Hebrews 6:1 states that we need to learn more than just the basic doctrine.

I liken this to a baby who is well fed with milk, but then a snake comes to attack the baby. A baby cannot defend itself. This is how demons operate, and if we do not learn spiritual warfare, they will attack us with full force.

2Tim 3:16 states that ALL
scripture is profitable...

so for jl, all things that contradict scripture is HERESY.

love,

jl, humble friend of Yeshua.

Unknown said...

Texas wildflower, I get where you are coming from concerning the word heresy. It gets thrown around alot, especially by Calvinists and Jim Brown types! But that doesn't mean it doesn't apply here!
I think it is funny that if you hold to Scripture, it is made out that you do not think, that you do not know God, that you are in fear, and you just need to have your mind opened. If you hold someone accountable to what Scripture says, you are mean, unkind,presumptuous. Of course, the person accusing you is not any of those things, even if what they are teaching or believing flies directly in the face of Scripture. Lena Marie comes to mind. She presumes that she really knows what was happening way back when, even though the Son of God Himself says otherwise. She says we don't know Him or His character, but we are taking Him at His word and she is making Him out to be a liar. I don't know, calling our Lord a liar doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me that someone knows Him or has the inside scoop on what was actually meant by demon possession. If you desire what is true, you must go to the one who said " I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father but by me." All knowledge, wisdom and understanding come from Him. He said, you are either for me or against me. If you choose to believe something that contradicts what He says, then you are not actually interested in what is true, and are listening to the lies of the serpent. Jesus said "Broad is the way that leads to destruction." That should be a warning to all those people out there who pride themselves on being "broad minded." They will accept anything but the narrow truth. And if they tell me that they don't believe in absolute truth, again, they are a liar, because I know most people would become very upset if they were paid for fewer hours with fewer dollars than they were actually contracted to work. In that instance, $500 could not be substituted with $5. How much less should we treat our eternal soul with falsehoods that will rob from us eternity with the LORD! If I seem to be harsh, it is that what she proposes is wicked and deceptive, and her condescending attitude in putting forth such things betrays the fact that she thinks herrself above the Scripture and therefore not accountable to it. To accuse others of pride and fear and presumption takes some arrogance, while she has not stopped to consider what is being said and if it is true! She may believe what she wishes, but when you place your ideas in a public forum, prepare to have them scrutinized. Christians hold themselves to the Word of God, not their own private opinions. By the way, Jesus said that we were to take heed that no man deceive us. He also said that we are to fear Him who has the power to cast one into hell. That is enough for me to understand that we are responsible to know and obey the truth.

Unknown said...

Joy, I have some good news from the things I learned about the Sabbath.
First, that Jesus kept the Sabbath by laying in the grave all Saturday. But, he rose again on the Feast of Firstfruits, which was also a Sabbath! That day was both the first day of the week, and the eighth day, meaning a new beginning! It is wise to keep a day to rest, in the OT the people were not to stir outside their homes except to take care of their animals. Jesus is our Sabbath rest! We have repented from dead works to serve the living God. That is freedom, indeed. I believe why the people met together in the New Testament on the first day of the week or Sun. would be this reason. Most people did not own their own Torah scroll. If you wanted to hear the Word of God, you had to go to the temple or a synagogue. The Jewish people counted days from evening to evening. They probably would go to synagogue, and spend the Sabbath resting, and on Saturday night, which would have been Sunday for them, they would get together and eat, study Paul's letters or receive instruction and pray. Remember, Paul was teaching late into the night and the boy fell out of the window and was raised to life. Even if they met on the day of Sunday, if you want to be technical, it is a Sabbath! But I am so glad that Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, so whatever day you rest, it is a gift for you from the Lord. Therefore,if the Son makes you free, you are free indeed!

Anonymous said...

Joy - I think that deep down inside your husband is being convicted of his sin's, but he doesn't want to listen. He also feels threatened by your desire for the Lord, maybe he feels it will take away your desire for a relationship with him. Could you reassure him with words or in some way. I say this because I have a similar problem. Although I have no children, I do have a chronic illness, so it can make it easier for someone to bully you.I went through the same thing. It is very hard.It can really test your faith.
I personally had to come to a place of complete humility and trust in God, and just let God deal with my husband. I had to admit that I wanted him to change, but it had to be him. He had to want to change.He had to want to get closer to God.It is spiritual battle.
Google" believers struggling with unbelieving spouses". Read through a few sites and comments and see if anything is helpful..
I know it is so hard,especially with children. I will continue to pray for you.
I hope that helps, I know it's not much.
May God Bless you - Sue

Anonymous said...

Joy - I'm sorry, you didn't actually say your husband was an unbeliever, but I think googling what I wrote ,would be helpful anyway..
Sue

LenaMarie said...

I have been looking into and considering the plausibility of demonic possession. But first, I think one needs to consider what are demons and what purpose do they serve? What is their function? Likewise, what would be the function and purpose of a demonic possession? These questions must be thoroughly addressed in order to gain real understanding on these matters.

Bible Believer said...

Lena, look at how evil this world is, you seriously believe there is no such thing as demonic possession when there are people who go on murder sprees and openly worship Satan before millions? Be careful of the intellectuals overloading you with philosophies of utilitarianism to lead you away from scriptural truth.

Bible Believer said...

Lena, you do realize, that Unitarianism got started because they questioned hell. The Christadelphians have their Unitarian ties. Unitarianism arose out of questioning hell and denying the divinity of Jesus Christ. I studied Unitarian history while UUA, we all read and heard about it. Hell was the puzzle piece that got removed. Well your false teachers are doing the same. You all will be led down the road to perdition and will forsake the entire faith. Unitarians at their start still believed in "god" and a "Christianity" of sorts then they became full blown ecumenical pagans, where everything goes.

Denying the existence of hell and demons is not just having a simple misunderstanding or quibbling over eschatological timings, it is questioning the purpose of the salavation itself and denying Jesus Christ as God, Lord and Savior. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

Even your asking if demons were all mental and physical conditions tells me your group, pastor or whoever you are associated with already is denying the existence of the spiritual world.

There is a reason that UUs became full blown pagans and atheists in their historical development and ended up throwing the bible out or just considering it another cultural writing to match the Koran and Talmud.

Bible Believer said...

I know heresy is a word that got misused by the Roman Catholic church. I am considered a heretic by Catholic church definitions for leaving and denying them. However I think the word is still useful if you used properly in denying and contradicting God's Word.

LenaMarie said...

BB, What are we being saved from and how?
You said.."Denying the existence of hell and demons is not just having a simple misunderstanding or quibbling over eschatological timings, it is questioning the purpose of the salavation itself and denying Jesus Christ as God, Lord and Savior. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?"

So based off your statement I can conclude that for you the literal belief in demons [external disembodied spirits] and men burning eternally in hellfire is necessary in order to be saved. Why?

First , I will ask where does evil come from? According to scripture...

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
(Mark 7:20-23)

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Evil, it is evident is the resident within man. The things Jesus said that defile a man which come out of a wicked heart these bring the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience(Eph 5:5-6). The wrath of God is what we are being saved/hidden from. Just as eight souls were saved from God's wrath during the flood which came because the evil of man or as God saved Lot from His wrath the destruction brought upon Sodom for mans evil, so we are trusting Christ to be delivered from the wrath that is to come upon all evil, ungodly, and unbelieving men.
The children of disobedience are children of unbelief for anyone who believes will obey. Those who believe in Jesus which causes one to endure until the end and to abide in Him. Jesus, who is God made flesh which was crucified and raised from the dead. This believing man shall be saved/hidden from the wrath of God and shall receive resurrection in a new body unto eternal life. This is the quick and simplified version of what I believe.

So I ask you again. What are we being saved from and how? And a new question. Why is it necessary for salvation to believe in demons as defined by tradition as external disembodied spirits and to believe in the eternal torment of unbelievers?

Bible Believer said...

You do realize you are universalist right?

Actually the only difference between you and a UU, and I am know I am being blunt here, is you may see "jesus" as a one or two notches up the "moral teacher" or "avatar" that UUs see him as.

I believe anyone JWs etc, who deny the divinity of Jesus Christ handed in their Christian cards long ago. They were never born again. Being born again means someone would never deny Jesus Christ as God. So have you even been saved? When? Do you have a testimony?

Why did Jesus Christ go to the cross if there was no hell to save humanity from?

Where did death come from? Did man invent it?

If there is no hell, do you expect to share heaven with Hitler and pals maybe even the Popes?

[I suppose your cult probably denies the immortality of man too, saying those who are lost, get extinguished which is against scripture too]

Yes it is necessary to believe that evil exists to be born again.

The UUs told me evil was a "human concept too" borne of human ignorance and ignored it's spiritual underpinnings.

How many verses does your pastor have to black out with his sharpie marker to claim and hell ,Satan and demons don't exist.

Ever since I started this blog, they have sent me all types. Now I can see the outer reaches of false Christiandom are being sent over here.

I WAS a UNIVERSALIST, and so are you.

It is a lie from the pit of the hell you do not believe in.

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Unknown said...

Amen BB!
Lena Marie, just out of curiousity, how do you believe one is saved?
Who are you believing on?
If you do not believe the Bible is God's inspired,inerrant Word, how do you know anything about God or salvation? What gospel are you preaching? I sincerely would like to know. "T"

Alan Means said...


I see it is of the utmost importance to believe in devils, without them who would be responsible for the evils of the world? Who could we place blame? Who would be our scape-goat? If we do not believe in devils and tempters then we are responsible for the evils of the world; Bible Believer/Galatians 4 blogger is responsible for the evil in her life. Having devils to blame for your actions releases you (BB) from taking responsibility for your actions. This is far too convenient for you to simply give up. You're just like your grandmother Eve who, when confronted, of her evil blamed it on a devil; It is like your grandfather Aaron who, when confronted, said "I threw the gold into the fire and out popped this image!"

Your implausible accusations, side-stepping of challenging questions, and refusing to address the real issue of devils is telling of your inability to accept reality: You are responsible for the evils in your life and in this world. Evil finds it's origin in you. Wickedness, faithlessness, and other forms of corruption come from you. It is clear to see you refuse to accept this and so deny the Faith, your own salvation and liberation. Instead you point the finger, refuse to be challenge, deny reality and so condemn your own soul.

The issue is not about devils but your refusal to accept the responsibility for your own actions; the subject of demons is pretense. On the Day of Atonement, Azazel and all he represents (i.e. your excuses not to take responsibility for your own sin) is driven into the wild. Jesus is the light of the world; he is the truth. He dispels darkness, reveals lies and drives out your excuse, your Azazel, your scape-goat, and confronts you with being responsible for your part in the ills of the world.

In the beginning there was life and death before our grandparents, they chose death; Today there is life and death before you, will you continue to deny your part in the corruption of yourself and this world as did your mother Eve and perish as they did or accept that you're the cause and turn to Christ be healed and live? Jesus didn't die and rise to save you from hell, he came to give life that whosoever believes in him, though he should die, will live.

LenaMarie said...

BB, your lips are full of presumption and lies. I have been a regular commenter on your blog for at least a few years. Anyone who cares enough to know the truth can look at my post and see I am not the person you have presumed me to be. You have projected your own experiences upon me and made me an evil of your own imagination instead of just dealing with what I have told you directly. I will not be coming here again.

Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
(Proverbs 12:22)

texaswildflower said...

@Anon Feb. 17 1:26 pm: That is exactly why I wouldn't use the word heresy. Something may be an "official belief," but that doesn't make it true. The Real Presence was an "official" doctrine of Rome and if you denied it the Church said you would go to hell. LenaMarie has a valid point in that if we depend on the traditions passed down, we can be deceived. I don't accept the existence of demons because it's an official doctrine of Christianity. I accept it because YHWH tells us in the Word that our battle is against spiritual powers, not flesh and blood, per Eph. 6:12. We need to be Bereans and not sheep.

texaswildflower said...

Hang on, BB. Where did LenaMarie deny Jesus Christ is God? I have read her post several times and I don't see her saying that. I do see her saying she believes salvation consists in believing which leads to abiding which leads to being given resurrection life. But that doesn't negate the divinity of Christ or the fact that He died on the cross to make salvation possible.

This is a point where I guess I too depart from how BB and a few other commenters here understand the Scripture. Mental belief doesn't save us; the death and resurrection of the Anointed One of God does. (And yes, I believe He is God in the flesh.) I would even go out on a limb and say some Calvinists are saved, LOL, in spite of their beliefs.

LenaMarie seems to agree that evil exists; she's just not convinced that there is a personal devil or demon. But mental belief in evil doesn't save. I'm scratching my head at your statement, BB. I do think that once you are born again, certain things will begin to come clear over time as the Holy Spirit teaches you. But how is believing in the devil or demons or a literal eternal hell a prerequisite for being born again? (Btw, there is some evidence that the eternal hellfire idea is another "tradition of man" created by the RCC. I am still researching this, so I absolutely am not committing myself to a position on the issue.) I guess the conclusion I have to come to based on your statement is that someone can't be born again until after they've been thoroughly taught the Scriptures and already understand how the spiritual world works. That could be. But to me, it doesn't add up with the fact that Gentiles in the Scriptures were "added to the faith" without even the basic knowledge. James in the Jerusalem Council had to lay out the ground rules for them to become part of the believing community. After "repent and believe," the word was "no idolatry" and then, of course, the foundations of Hebrews 6.

LenaMarie, it would help us to know some of your background. Do you come from a liturgical church? Or a cult group? Or just do-your-own-thing spirituality? It seems to me that you and BB are talking past each other. If you are really here to learn and seek truth, please be open. I apologize for insinuating you supported Jim Brown, since you say you had never heard of him. Also, apologies to everyone if my comment is too long and off track.

Bible Believer said...

I've seen message boards taken over by Universalists, in fact one made a rule they were not allowed. I think I see why now.

Lena goodbye, I will pray you will come out of whatever cult you are hooked into.

I can tell when I have been sent cultists to add confusion to this blog. I don't need Universalists and those who deny demons and hell even exist here. Sometimes I wonder how "trollers" and "astroturfers" I got coming here. Sadly the number seems higher then usual. I wonder what strange beliefs will pop up next week.

I heard the evil is only the human heart stuff in the UU, and that Christianity was false to blame it on any demons.

I'm closing down comments on this one.

jl said...

Dear Alan Means,

I read your blog post, and you refuse to admit the existence of Satan. You call him "Angel" and "Enchanter". This is heresy. To deny the devil exist is heresy, heresy, heresy.

BB, you have all the proof you need these past two weeks that your blog is really fulfilling Galatians 4:16

love,

jl, humble friend of Yeshua.

p.s. jl needs to puke after seeing all this heresy. jl eyes hurt!

Bible Believer said...

Thank you JL. It makes my eyes hurt too. The heresy is so immense. I have to admit I am incredulous that people even really believe this stuff. I could be people yanking our chains.

Jdub said...

PART 1

I have listened to Jim Brown, and I do not agree with everything he says and I do not disagree with everything he says. In fact, I have found that when I listen to different denominations, each denomination has their own spin on certain bible verses and their own little niche of understanding. What's funny is that the people of each denomination like to point the finger at each other and scream "heretic". It has been my personal experience going from denomination to denomination, each group has portions of truth mixed with portions of error, and no one group has it 100% correct.

I have spent hours and hours watching Jim Brown's account of demons and why he says they don't exist. I admit that he makes some points that I find strong, and some points I find weak, or maybe I just do not fully understand his points, in either case I do see issues in his arguments that in some regards I consider irreconcilable. However, the poster of this blog makes some statements that are in serious error and these points must be taken into account when considering the arguments made by the author.

The author of this post states "I don't buy the word break-downs. I have only studied some Spanish but die and ballos mean other things in other languages. Die even means "the" in German. One could come up with all sorts of monkey-business translating words and breaking them into pieces. Ballos does not mean a ball, it means "dance" in other languages. Baile means DANCE in Spanish."

First of all, the break down of words that Jim Brown provides are in Greek, not Spanish. Just because a word appears in the Greek language and means something totally different in the Spanish language, the meaning of that word in Spanish has no bearing on the meaning of that word in Greek. The appearance of the word in Greek, Spanish, and German is a coincidence of language, nothing more. I have studied Koine Greek and from personal experience, I will tell you that many greek words are compounded together in order to form new words that combine the meaning of both root words. I'm not sure why the author of this blog states that this is "monkey business" because you see compound words in English all the time, in fact it is quite common. Just as in Koine Greek, an English compound word usually has a combination of meanings from both root words as well. For example, "Backache, seaweed, snowboard, spaceship, battleship, etc." We do word break downs all the time to get better understandings of the definition of a word. For example, "atypical", you break that word apart into two pieces, the word typical, and the alpha privative to add the negative particle. Thus we have an understanding of the word to mean not typical. This method is a legitimate method of studying and defining words, so much so you see this method used in dictionaries and no one calls it "monkey business".

Furthermore, Spanish is a derivative of Latin. The obvious syntactic similarities between Greek and Latin are mostly due to their both being fairly conservative Indo-European languages. Lexically they're not very close at all. Nowadays everyone categorizes them as being in fully separate branches of the Indo-European family. Once again, the argument of having coincidental words in both languages with different meanings does nothing towards proving any point at all.

Jdub said...

PART 2

The author of this blog quotes Jim Brown "If you can't hear what I am going to tell you about demons, if you can't hear what I am going to tell you about demons, then you can't hear what the bible says then by all you are stupid or "idiotos". Talk about mental manipulation!"

Well, if one pays attention closely to what Jim Brown says without skipping around and cherry picking quotes, Jim Brown defines and explains his usage of these words in accordance to their usage in the bible itself. Stupid from the Jewish word בָּ֫עַר (Ba'ar) - dull of hearing, the sense of a brute beast, unable to learn, stupid. Idiot derived from the greek word idioteß - in the NT, an unlearned, illiterate, man as opposed to the learned and educated: one who is unskilled in any art. So, from his perspective, he is simply using words as they are used in the bible, saying that if someone refuses to listen, they are unable to learn because their senses are dulled and they are unskilled in understanding the bible or they could simply be unskilled in learning. That's no worse than the author of the blog using the picture of a wolf in sheep skin calling Jim Brown a heretic and associating Jim Brown with other groups of "heretics" as decided by the author of the blog at his discretion. Both are pointing the finger and both are equally convinced that "the shoe fits".

Secondly, in regards to the comment "The "casting out of fortunes" is nonsense too. This Greek dictionary says it means possessed. I googled the term daimonid and found nothing saying it meant "casting of fortunes". Diamond was the closest word. Did Jews call their sins demons? How would that work since Jews in the time of Jesus did not speak English? I'd like to see that one proven. "I have made lists of all his sources of information and have spent literally thousands of dollars hunting down encyclopedias, etc."

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Google is not the definitive source of ancient Greek linguistics. However, even considering that Google is not the definitive source for Greek Linguistics, I did a google search and contrary to what the author of this blog claims, I found the following information after 5 seconds of looking "daimōn (δαίμων "deity") is synonymous to daēmōn (δαήμων "knowing or wise"), however, it is more probably daiō (δαίω "to divide, to distribute destinies, to allot")."Dæmon" is the Latinized versions of the Greek "δαίμων" ("godlike power, fate, god"). It is a word used to refer to the daemons of ancient Greek religion and mythology, as well as later Hellenistic religion and philosophy." I found this information at this website ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology). Just because the author of the blog may not buy the breaking apart of words does not mean that the Greek's did not combine daio with other words. The fact is, they did combine daio with plenty of other words and the author of this blog liking or disliking that situation has no effect on the point that it happened. If a Jew wanted to reference a demon, the author of the blog is correct, they would not say demon because English did not exist, but almost everyone spoke Greek, and their equivalent was Daemon.

It is also important to consider that different Koine dictionaries are going to give different definitions of the same word depending on what source you go to. If you go to Vine's expository dictionary of the Bible and look up demon, you will get a break down of the word daio to be either "to distribute" or "to know". So according to Vine's expository dictionary of the Bible, Daemon can be a distributor or a knowing one.

Jdub said...

PART 3

If you go to Thayers Greek Lexicon, you find Daemonidzomai described as the following. "δαιμονίζομαι; 1 aorist passive participle δαιμονισθείς; (δαίμων); to be under the power of a demon: ἄλλος κατ' ἄλλην δαιμονίζεται τυχην, Philemon 1 in Stobaeus, ecl. phys. 1, p. 196; of the insane, Plutarch, symp. 7, 5, 4, and in other later authors. In the N. T. δαιμονιζόμενοι are persons afflicted with especially severe diseases, either bodily or mental (such as paralysis, blindness, deafness, loss of speech, epilepsy, melancholy, insanity, etc.), whose bodies in the opinion of the Jews demons (see δαιμόνιον) had entered, and so held possession of them as not only to afflict them with ills, but also to dethrone the reason and take its place themselves; accordingly, the possessed were accustomed to express the mind and consciousness of the demons dwelling in them; and their cure was thought to require the expulsion of the demon". Thayer is a well known and highly used Greek Lexicon. According to Thayer, "demon possessed people" are people who suffer from severe diseases who in the opinion of the Jews demons had entered.

It also needs to be considered that some Greek dictionaries are defined based upon word usage of ancient Greek writers such as Philo, Philemon, Aristotle, Plato, etc. and some Greek dictionaries are defined based upon earlier translations of bibles. What this means is that some Greek dictionaries give word definitions based upon how previous translators translated a specific word from Greek to English in the King James bible for example. That definition then becomes the standard of understanding. That does not mean that the translation of the word is accurate nor that the correct translation is being used in the correct context. That also does not mean that the english word used to translate a greek word back in the 1600's has the same definition as it does today. God promised to preserve his word, he did not promised to preserve languages, nor did he promise to give us all nice, neat, perfect translations in each language throughout the world.

I have gone to great lengths to trace down all the sources of information that Jim Brown uses and I have spent literally thousands of dollars acquiring the books it is that he uses. I will tell you that this information is not just on Google, in bible dictionaries, Lexicon's, it's also in Encyclopedia's such as McClintock and Strong's.

Jdub said...

PART 4

I am not saying this because I am defending Jim Brown and because I am some Jim Brown ditto heaad. Quite the contrary, just like every other teacher I have come across, there are things that I believe he has spot on, and there are other things he says that makes me scratch my head wondering how he came to such conclusions. In regards to demons, I think it is possible that they exist although in all honesty I am undecided because there are different ways to interpret what is being said and when you go back to the Greek, it becomes even more different and until I have a more firm grasp, I am going to remain undecided while I continue to study. The reason I am saying all of this is because the author of this Blog seemingly wants to reinforce the existence of demons and to go about calling Jim Brown a heretic while doing so.

In fact, that seems to be the underline basis upon which the author attacks Jim Brown. If you have a problem with something that someone teaches, it is good to have counter arguments and differences of opinions in order to try each other and to sharpen our own faith. However, it is imperative that whomever it is you attack, you put the same level of research and knowledge in your counter-arguments as the person you are countering has put into making their arguments. Not because they deserve your respect, but because the the other people who will be reading your post may look to you and what you have written for guidance. If you write something that is inaccurate or not well researched, you may inadvertently cause just as much damage to your readers in your counter-argument as you are trying to prevent in making the counter-argument in the first place. Jim Brown may have errors in his teaching and his delivery of his message may be harsh and erroneous in ways also, but he has done years upon years of research and truly cares about seeking the truth and it shows in other ways. The author of this blog has not demonstrated the same level of research or study. Anyone who reads this blog, I would recommend that you find counter arguments to Jim Brown from another source that presents carefully researched facts and relies less upon hasty generalizations and association logical fallacy. Most of all, read your bible and get history books ad READ READ READ. Ask for God's guidance and protection as you try to gain a more firm understanding of history, and as you do, you will find your understanding of the bible expand exponentially. At least that was my experience. I wish everyone the best of luck in your biblical endeavors!

Jdub said...

Part 5
I know I have said a lot already, but there was one more point that I wanted to add as a form of additional information for greater understanding. I am not saying this to try and disprove the author of this blog. I hope this last bit of information is useful.
The author of the blog stated the following:

“Trying to claim Jesus was speaking slang or popular mode of speech is nonsense. A total lie, Jim Brown says of Jesus Christ: "He would never admit that a man had a demon":

Oh really?

Matthew 12:43-45King James Version (KJV)
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”


Let us remember that Jesus was speaking in a parable and was making this statement in order to make a point. When Jesus speaks in parables, that does not mean what he says is necessarily hard fact, but more like a mental illustration. For instance, when Jesus likens the kingdom of Heaven to a mustard seed he was speaking in parable. It would be absurd to take that literally and look at a mustard seed and say “ah, I have the kingdom of heaven in my hand!”

It is also important to keep in mind that Jim Brown is correct in a sense. Like the author of the blog stated, there was no English back 2000 years ago and there was no word demon. There was only the word daimon or the Latinized version, daemon. Back 2000 years ago, from what I have been studying, the word daimon meant something entirely different and had a much different understanding attached to it. If we want to understand today what was being said in the bible, we cannot base our understanding off of today’s definitions, we must go back to the definition of the word when it was used. Anyone who knows anything knows that the meaning of words change over time and to think that the meaning of the word daemon / daimon did not change over thousands of years is to be subject to the worst kind of naivety.

Going back to my previous post, the idea of a daimōn had multiple understandings and one of them was this idea of dead ancestors that become deified and become gods. On the basis of Hesiod's myth great and powerful figures were to be honoured after death as a daimon. The people of the Golden Age were transformed into daimones by the will of Zeus, to serve mortals benevolently as their guardian spirits; "good beings who dispense riches.”

The problem is, in Isaiah 45:5, God says “I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Since Jesus is God in the flesh, given this understanding of the word daemon / daimon, no, Jesus would not admit that there are daemon’s because with this understanding of the word that people had 2000 years ago, that would be admitting that there are other gods or deities or that people had become deified. The other problem is, if you believe these people become guardian spirits as the meaning implies, your flying directly in the face of the teachings of the bible in regards to what happens to people when they die.

Jdub said...

Part 6

Another issue that needs to be addressed in the above claim by the author of the blog is that Jesus used the term demon in the sentence:
“Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself”

Here is the phrase in greek: “Tότε πορεύεται καὶ παραλαμβάνει μεθ’ ἑαυτοῦ ἑπτὰ ἕτερα πνεύματα πονηρότερα ἑαυτοῦ”

Notice, there is no word daimon, however, there is the word pneumata which is translated spirit. The definition of spirit is as follows:
pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151(pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind,breath).
The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]

Why is this important? Because as it states, any definition of the word is technically possible, and thus the mean could have 7 unclean breaths in this parable (but that is a whole different discussion). Technically in this circumstance, it’s not really important and I do believe it is talking in regards to spirits, but it does go to show that it is important to know what greek words you are working with because translators have been known to render multiple greek words as the same word in English or to blur meanings when the true meanings are highly distinct. While it may not be erroneous per se, it does leave a lot of room open for error of understanding and when dealing with something like this, we need as much clarity as can be provided.

Alan Means said...

We may as well be discussing the existence of goblins based on J.R.R. Tolkien's trilogy "The Lord of the Rings" while using his story to determine if they are real and what they're really like. Defining words and using etymology doesn't prove or disprove the reality of demons, angels or gods, it means you're using mythology to prove mythology.

Both god and demons are excuses to do evil. "God saith 'Kill the infidels!'"; Eve saith (in mythology) "The devil made me do it. He tricked me!" The wonderful thing about doing good is there is no need for god or devils to accomplish it.

Jdub said...
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Jdub said...
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Jdub said...

At AlanMeans - I posted a comment to you earlier, which at the moment of writing this post has not been approved and posted yet, maybe it will not be. I think I have misunderstood what you said and thought that you meant the bible was a myth, and I believe you are misunderstanding me. I made comments in regards to "your world view" based upon my misunderstanding of what you said and for that I give my apologies. I re-read a few posts back in regards to personal responsibility and I totally agree with you.

In fact, in the post I said I wrote already that has not been posted I stated:

"There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." also, "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Thus if the biblical world view is correct, the only good that we do comes from God since none are good and all the evil we do is from ourselves because the bible states that the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things, and God made us that way. Furthermore, even if God did make us that way, the bible does not allow us to blame other people or entities, or even God himself, we are still held responsible for our evil. The bible states "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

According to a biblical world view, we are made the way we are made and we are still responsible for our actions and even if we think it is unfair, oh well. When we create the heavens and the earth, we can operate it according to whatever rules we wish, and even then we are still just subjects in the universe we live in now.


I am not of the belief of trying to use etymology to prove demons. In fact, etymology shows me that demons are superstition. Daemons used to be considered Gods and the God of the bible says there is only him. The only reason I am a little guarded is because of certain irreconcilable wordings in the bible in regards to issues with demons leaves me scratching my head sometimes but the more I study ancient history, etymology, greek, and hebrew the more I see superstition superimposed upon ideas and words that have snowballed over time and I move away from the belief in demons. Once again, I'm not proving demons do or do not exist, and if they do, so what? Just like God hardened Pharaoh and holds him responsible, I'm responsible for me still anyways. My study of etymology is only to understand what was really being said in a foreign language 2000 years ago and so that I can peel away incorrect superimposed ideas planted in my mind by religious misconceptions I picked up growing up.

I guess the reason I do all this is because we are told "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Alan Means said...

@Jdub

I'm glad you have taken it upon yourself to "shew thyself approved". I certainly approve of investigation. The Hebrew writer indicates such a thing is worthy of approval when s/he wrote: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
(Hebrews 11:6)

In my studies I interpreted this verse as "investigate" God or "diligently seek him". Investigations have the promise of uncovering truth others passover. I wish you the best in your endeavour.

Jdub said...

@ Alan Means

Someone in the comment section of this blog mentioned that you had a blog that they read. Could I please have the web link to your blogs? I am new to this blog site and not quite sure how to find your blogs particularly. I am very interested to read what it is you have to say.

Josh

Alan Means said...

@Jdub

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1 Corinthians 13:11)


People change as ideas change. I could link you my blog but you would only find a beautiful image of a chair in a room. What is it you would like to know?

Jdub said...

@Alan Means

This is the quote above that someone above made towards you.

"jl said...
Dear Alan Means,

I read your blog post, and you refuse to admit the existence of Satan. You call him "Angel" and "Enchanter". This is heresy. To deny the devil exist is heresy, heresy, heresy."


As you might imagine, my study of etymology that has been taking me away from demons, which I am now more than ever thinking of nothing more than superstitions, has also lead me way from what might be considered the conventional understanding of "the devil".

This is sort of a situation where "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Not to say user "JL" is my enemy, but if this person believes so strongly in demons and is telling you that you are a heretic because you do not admit the existence of "satan" in a modern conventional sense, I want to read what this person is referencing and I want to read every word you have to say on the subject. Like I said, I am more and more every day moving way from superstition, but on subjects such as "satan", even though I have a few working ideas of my own based on scripture, I feel stuck as though there is something I am missing and I am looking for light on the subject.

Alan Means said...

@Jdub

The blog JL referred to no longer exists. In the article JL is referring to I didn't deny the existence of satan, only referred to him as an "angel" and "enchanter". These references are based on Christian doctrine and the Bible. In the Biblical narrative, the serpent who deceived Eve enchanted her hence "enchanter". According to Christian tradition satan was an angel hence "angel". There are many names and titles which refer to satan, I used a couple which were not officiated by the Church and so I was reprimanded and accused of not believing in him. At the time I did believe in satan and demonic entities.

It was only after much study did I come to the conclusion evil comes from the heart, not devils.

Jdub said...

@Alan

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

It took me a while to realize the full magnitude of the above statement. If the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, we don't need help from demons (if they existed) or Satan because the wickedness of our own hearts, according to this verse, surpasses even them.

Alan, I want to run something by you to get your opinion and afterwards I promise, I will leave you alone.

I stumbled across this in my studying:

(2 Samuel 24:1), "And again the anger of the Lord glowed against Israel, and incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

(1 Chronicles 21:1), "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel."
(Interlinear bible by J.P. Green)


When I read what people's thoughts are about this, it appears that people read this, as well as most scriptures about demons, through a certain level of theological presupposition, and as such, people seem to read an understanding into the text that I am finding is not there. Reading ecclesiastical history books, mostly Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, this idea of Satan as God's counterpart with his army of demons is an idea that Dr. Mosheim was able to trace back to Persian mystery schools, although it may be traced back even farther. Some people say that Satan is God's tool. The problem is "Satan" only means adversary. The point is, that taking off the theological blinders and letting the text speak for itself without putting in any presuppositions to make the text fit any pre-existing beliefs, it would seem that our adversary "Satan" is the anger of the Lord, for what can be more adversarial than the Lord's anger? When you look at this in conjunction with Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these, it paints a picture quite contrary to common conceptions of Satan.

Like I said in a previous post, this is not to shift blame for me being a jerk from some devilish figure to God. Like Paul says, God can form one vessel for wraith and one vessel for honor and there is not a darn thing we can do or say about it and we are still held responsible for what we are, and if you a person doesn't like that, oh well. All I am attempting to do is to get the best understanding of what is being said while dropping all of my presuppositions so my vision is not clouded.

Do you believe this to be erroneous? Is there something I am not taking into account?

Alan Means said...

@Jdub

You're not bothering me. I don't mind discussing this topic with you. If you'd like, we could move this to a more private setting. This would alleviate work from Bible Believer and allow us to more freely write about it.

Jdub said...
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Jdub said...

@Alan;

I created a blog page Alan

http://jdubblogspot.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-adversary-lord.html

If there is problem with reaching this page, viewing it, or being able to leave posts, please let me know.

To the author of this blog, I apologize for taking your blog and turning it to a private conversation and apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused you.

Jdub said...
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Paul Jay said...

As an opening comment for dialogue, I need to ask the author "bible believer", where you obtained the idea that Jim Brown sounds like a Unitarian from? He [Jim] speaks of the Hebrew Trinity etc! I'm a believer in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater... and so following if He is a Unitarian that doesn't have to discount other sound doctrine in his ministry.

Thanks

louroofwalker said...

Good study by Jim liked it thnxs for the video... Demons are in the text only cause it showed Jesus deity, and over them,, that's all,, fact is they weren't around after that and certainly not anymore not even in Revelation... those that believe in demons and devils don't see them in themselves the treasures of this world,, fact again IS God has a way with everybody from the beginning to the end... The person/s that are saying Jim is wrong are demons..