Tuesday, January 7, 2014

My Questions about IFBs and Baptists

                                           [picture cite]

I was in a good IFB church for some years when I was born again.

This church broke apart after I moved, the old pastor moved on, and another pastor moved in. They kept the name, lost the building but merged and moved to another town, and all the old members left.

Today though, I have kept contact with many Christian brothers and sisters from that church. While there are perhaps a few decent independent Baptist churches out there, there are many of those too entering into apostate land.

I have visited a few IFBs in the last years, hoping perhaps I could find a place to fellowship again where there is biblical truth but the chance seems more and more remote. In many ways I have progressed beyond some commonly IFB beliefs, while obviously holding on to other essentials listed below. I suppose one could call me a "fundamentalist" like the ex-IFB pastor now atheist who told me I was still a fundamentalist in methodology though I know avoid the term for obvious reasons.

Based on the classic 5 fundamentals and the KJV as God's True Word in English [not a la Ruckman and extremists in the KJV Only movement], yes the world would probably consider me a "Christian fundamentalist".


I agree with even most of this stuff:
C.    The Baptist Acrostic
(Taken from page 82 of "Truths Every Christian Needs To Know" by Clarence Sexton)
       

B – Biblical authority: the Bible is the sole authority for all faith and practice
A – Autonomy of the local church: self governing
P – Priesthood of believers: every believer has access to the Lord Jesus Christ
T – Two church officers – pastors and deacons
I –  Individual soul liberty
S – Saved church membership
T – Two church ordinances : baptism and the Lord’s Supper
S – Separation of church and state


But there's many things that do not match:


Many IFB churches teach these things I do not agree with and have exposed on this blog:

1. Dispensationalism. [a Pre-Trib Rapture] This is the majority by far.

2. Christian Zionism. Some stress this more then others.

3. Dominionism. This has grown even more in the churches from what I have personally seen.

4. Only some teach this but it's growing out there: The Patriarchy Movement.

5. Support of the Police state, Skewing of Romans 13 and Jingoism.

6. Authoritarianism

7. Pastor Networks that don't seem any different from the rest of the churches.

8. Tithing

9. The One Man Show. [some of course are better then others on this one, allowing other men to preach, elder system etc]

Many of these per the links above, I've been posting on for some time. We know too the falling away of the churches isn't just for the mainlines but predicted for the entire church system and it's happening even to the conservatives and "fundamentalist" ones.

Over the years I have visited a couple IFBs including a long-distance one a year ago, and I made the mistake of visiting it on Memorial Day, and while this place seemed to cling to some of what was biblical, such as KJV Bibles and a direct gospel message, one telling moment was there as I sat in in the pews, and they had a jumbo-screen on the wall, actually with a picture of flying jets on it, singing the praises of America as a Christian nation, and I thought "What am I doing here?"

I didn't write about this church visit much except a little bit on the Scattered Sheep article because I was so overcome, thinking this was my very last option and it was a 60 mile round trip from home, which considering my humble budget would have meant occasional visits not regular ones. One strange thing that church had going was big burly men, with ear pieces and dressed in suits all standing guard around us. They never sat down and there were 6-7 of them I saw. For a church in a rural community that is not known for a high crime level and about 150 people in the pews it seemed unnecessary. I don't know if this church had a bad experience with someone violent or if the pastor read or saw a book on church "security" and decided to go all out with it but it was very weird.  It reminded me of an event I wrote about on this very blog, where someone was hauled out and held for arrest, by another church. The Holy Spirit told me for this and multiple other reasons, I did not belong there.

The church world is it's own place. Many of my readers are out of the church system like myself.  What gets me is the sameness of what I saw over the last 7 years.

I want to start exploring some Baptist topics here soon.

Some questions I want to ask and want to write about here are...

1. Why is full immersion so important to Baptists?

2. Why are so many IFB churches going to Calvin for answers? [and ignoring scripture in doing so]

3. Why are the majority of Baptist churches ecumenical outside of the few IFBs and independents?

4. Why did Baptists embrace dispensationalism and Scofield? Why do so few deviate from this norm?

5. What is the history of the Anabaptists? I know very little, far less about them then many other churches. Where did they come about?

6. What's with this History of the Baptist book from the 1800s, that claims linkage to early church fathers who are false? You all are quite familiar about what I think of early church fathers, as a false root. Was this author the norm in his thinking at the time?

7. Why are IFBs going Dominionist?

8. IFB pastors [old and present] with false teachings and dubious political and new world order connections that are as bad as the obvious Baptist deceivers.

Today I tell people I am simply a Christian, years ago I may have told people, I am an "independent Baptist" but that definitely changed and has ended.  I have seen websites where they write that Baptist churches are part of the Babylonian church system.  Let's be frank the majority of Baptist denominations outside the "fundamentalist" ones are signed on to the UN, Vatican, WCC system and part of the harlot.

"Baptist" as a word today means everything from Bill Clinton and Rick Warren. We already know those groups are far off the scriptural reservation.  My main focus will be IFBs and exploring what they came out of and what they became today and how they are changing but I am wondering about Baptists as a whole.

 I could be going into new territory here that may upset some of my readers since I suspect I probably have many IFB attenders among my readership. There was some wariness too about going into this new terrain, as for a long time as I held out hope of finding another church family perhaps in another IFB that preached truth but in many ways I've moved on making this more impossible. I can't say that day would never come but what are the chances of finding a church that has broken free of the Republican/Glenn Beck-watching/Dominionist/Easter-Christmas celebrating matrix?

There are saved Christians in these churches who are brothers and sisters of ours, and I suppose I want to delve into some of these questions even for their sake and what they are taking for granted from many of the pastors.  Here tell me even if you have ever heard of an IFB that rejects or preaches against Christmas because I sure haven't. When I was in my good IFB, I remember asking a lot of questions. I warned against the new world order and passed out pamphlets warning against Christmas. Very few are writing about things happening in the "fundamentalist" churches outside of a few nonbelievers who are not Christians and wish to detract from Christianity as a whole.

We are to test all things according to scripture. There are many things in IFB churches taken for granted that very few question. Have any of you thought about these sort of things too?  Tell me what you think and if there is any area you would like explored? Please share your own experiences, if you are a Christian without a church specifically with visiting IFB churches.

24 comments:

Jon Cramer said...

Great post! The only reason that I am commenting is to encourage you and let you know that there are many like minded believers in the body of Christ. You and I and many others will not be liked nor encouraged to fellowship in todays churches. That's just the way it is! It can be very painful and lonely at times with no church home, but it is even more painful to sit in todays churches and see and hear what is being taught. I am in a wonderful small, country SBC church that understands my differences with the liberal southern Baptist convention and todays Baptist churches. This is where the LORD has placed me. I can only pray that I can make a difference and that souls are saved. I look forward to the Galatians 4 blog and commend you on your fine work. Keep moving forward as a soldier of Christ as the LORD is using you and this blog.

KJVmom said...

I noticed you mentioned Anabaptists. I'm the one who attends a conservative Mennonite fellowship, which is where the Lord wants me for now. The Mennonites are part of the Anabaptist family-they were part of the Radical Reformation in the 1500's; they differed from both Catholics and Protestants and preached the doctrine of the two kingdoms and New Testament living. If you wish to learn more, you could visit clp.org or anabaptistmennonites.org, plus any links they might have. Enjoy, and God bless!

FaithGuy3 said...

I'm sure many of you are familiar with Sam Gipp(an IFB pastor who's spent many years defending the KJB) - he's put out a lot of good stuff defending the KJB.

However, even Gipp has compromised his positions a bit - he recently praised America as a "Christian nation". And I've seen him on YT videos in these "roundtable" discussions debating with these anti-KJB types like James White. Pretty much, he all but STOOD DOWN when it came to taking a stand for the KJB. He didn't do it completely, but his answers were like, "If your church doesn't use the KJB, then eventually you'll have to leave..."(ie-pretty much he said it's ok to stick around for a bit), "The KJB isn't inspired...", etc. And those James White types pretty much had their way the entire time.

Peter Ruckman - don't get all the fanfare with this guy. The few YT KJB people I listen to regularly seem to be big fans of him. Some of his views are really strange.

I've attended SBC churches through much of my life, and a couple of IFB ones on a few occasions. Pretty much, these Babel "church" buildings are one and the same - brainwashing and mind control on a level you just can't imagine. It's so subtle, that if you put yourself under their yoke, you WILL get yourself in bondage.

They'll tell you how you need to be "fired up" and "feel good" on church days, otherwise you're letting the devil get a stranglehold on you. While I love the traditional hymns, they sing WAY too many of them, to the point where you're so weary that you don't even understand the words you're singing after awhile, as well as the pastor's "sermon". 2-3 hymns per service is suffice enough - BUT b/c they have to hire a "music minister", they end up compromising to this position.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel these pastor's "sermons" are nothing but LECTURES out of his own heart? Why not just open the bible and read scripture passages directly to edify the brethren.

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

And worst of all, these same pastors and deacons who for years and years say how worldly entertainment like movies and sports are idolatry, are now bringing in this abomination that is CCM/"Christian" Rock that is really corrupting the youth.

Ultimately, it looks like 1984 has hit these Babel "church" buildings in a big way now. When you try to warn others in this system, a few will listen, but for the most part they act like you're a "hater", "judger", "Pharisee", etc. Those times I tried to point out the RCC's and Rick Warren's heresies, they gave me that very reaction.

And on another occasion when I pointed out how wrong it was for our pastors to run around town to other activities and fly around the country visiting heathens, they gave me this, "But God appointed him to this position, we can't judge!".

I too was once in this boat, largely b/c I didn't bother to get into scripture daily(but instead focused mostly on books and "devotionals"). So I'm really more grieved/vexed than angry.

And ultimately too, it's getting more obvious that the opening of the Rev 6 seals are drawing close - whatever "denomination" these church buildings are, they are all dead. I never imagined this junk we're seeing now in these buildings like CCM, megachurches, etc 20 years ago.

Anonymous said...

Keep this article in mind.

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/keys_to_fruitful_church_membership.html

Anonymous said...

I don't know how accurate this is, but here is a link supposedly explaining some Baptist history.

http://watch.pair.com/TR-15-anabaptist-unitarians.html

Anonymous said...

I also go to an anabaptist church. Their main beliefs are that they are anti political and antiwar. They are also anticalvin, and believe a person could lose their salvation. They take the bible literally, such as women and head coverings, to washing the feet of the saints.

The problem with the anabaptist right now is some are too legalistic and some are too liberal. They are trying to kick my pastor out of my church because he stands up for the truth, and many dont like it.

I read a lot of Art Katz literature. He said that of all denominations he has ever visited, the Mennonites are the closest to biblical Christianity. However, Jesus parable of the woman hiding leaven in the bread until all of it was leaven is very true. Eventually, there will be no biblical church and all of them will have leaven. May God bless you BB.

Love JL

Kathy said...

This is a really good article. http://acalltotheremnant.com/2009/07/30/god-is-calling-his-remnant-out-of-the-established-church/

Anonymous said...

"Why is full immersion so important to Baptists?"


Because that is what baptism is. full immersion.

Baptizo:
1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm


John 3:23 "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."





Anonymous said...

"Why did Baptists embrace dispensationalism and Scofield? Why do so few deviate from this norm?"

Why deviate from dispensationalism? Scofield is a different matter.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Jon for your encouragement, we definitely need it. Yes anyone with the truth in a false church will not be encouraged to stick around! I know what you mean about it being painful. I am glad you are in small, country church, that seems to be following after the truth. Thanks for your prayers.

*****

I know very little about Anabaptists and suppose I am interested in the history. Yes you are right the Mennonites came out of the Anabaptist tradition. What is the doctrine of the two kingdoms? I am not familiar with that term

Thanks for the link.

********************
Sorry anon a favorite pastor started preaching the "Christian nation" false Barton-like history and watered down defending God's Word. There was this one IFB pastor who had great videos on Youtube, and I even considered using some and then I found out he was a Ruckmanite--double and triple sigh. I tend to see the "debate" with James White crowd as all "insiders" to be frank with you. He has the Catholics come by too.

Yes there is stuff I have seen in IFB and SBC churches that go with the brainwashing and mind control stuff. Even the ones who preach it's a sin to miss church trouble me, given my history in the Catholic church with that one. I've seen ones who overdo the singing too. Yes the big churches with the music ministers a lot of time is spent there. I wouldn't mind just having the Bible read to me either, and feel that would be edifying. The ones who may read a whole chapter, that is better then cherry picking while of course ignoring false churches who have even used that claim to sell themselves like Calvary Chapel.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yes CCM is filtering even into the more "conservative" churches.


One thing I have noticed is pointing out even in a lot of IFBs that the Catholic church is a false church will get a person in trouble. My IFB pastor at the decent IFB church knew Rome was the harlot etc, but I was considered even with that church to be "hardcore" about Catholicism. I told them then how I had come out of it. One church member even told me how he visited his new girlfriend's Catholic church and did not like it when I said that was a bad idea. One thing I have noticed too among many regular people church distinctions, even IFB aren't as important, I have seen people leave an IFB and go to another Baptist church even in a denomination connected to the WCC or that uses the NIV.
I saw a lot of money being spent on religious "vacations". One pastor at a SBC I visited went on and on about his YEARLY "vacation" to Jamaica, cough, missions trip.


I only had came into the IFB church system very recently because I was saved in 2002, but I am noting even changes between when I used to be in one, up to 2007 or there abouts, and the changes in the one's I have visited.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks for the article.

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/keys_to_fruitful_church_membership.html

I agree about not separating over every little thing [outside of doctrine] or church practices like not being happy with how the bus ministry is run, too many songs, etc. Right now, just finding a non-ecumenical with Rome church wipes away 95% of them.

My good IFB, I disagreed with half the church about Christmas--the pastor celebrated it but it wasn't pushed and some members were like me not celebrating it, tithes, the Republican party and signing the membership book.

Christmas is a bigger issue to me now, but I would have to let the Lord lead me on that one.

I didn't leave over any of this. Every person God has to direct them where they belong and don't so...I agree with David Cloud TO A POINT.

I have to admit I am on the fence a bit with David Cloud and I'll tell you why.

This article is why:
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/nosoundchurch.html

I find this advice spiritually dangerous:

"THIRD, IF THERE IS NO STRONG NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH IN YOUR AREA AND YOU CANNOT MOVE, YOU CAN ATTEND THE BEST CHURCH THAT IS AVAILABLE AND BE FAITHFUL AND PUT INTO THE LORD'S HANDS THOSE THINGS WITH WHICH YOU DON'T AGREE

Remember that it is the pastors who have the greatest accountability for the doctrine and policy of the church. A church member is responsible to test everything by the Word of God (Acts 17:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:21), but he is not responsible ultimately for the decisions that are made, because those must be made by the church’s leaders."

This is putting too much into church leader hands, too much power where one is supposed to be under one at any cost? The Holy Spirit is our teacher.

If I followed David Cloud's advice, I would have my choice between a Rick Warren loving SBC with a covenant and an IFB with the pastor who screamed at the congregation that we must obey all government and never criticize a sitting president where it is going Dominionist. If a pastor gives you willies, and you think KNOWING DECEIVER, it's not a place the Holy Spirit is going to let you sit.

The way things are today that is definitely a set-up for deception.

I disagreed with my good IFB pastor even when he preached against those who leave the churches and home church it. He said via the Bible we all were supposed to be in a NT church, but then one could debate the meaning of the word "church" in the Bible, and what of the falling away. At the time I didn't know I would move to be 7 years out of a church which is kind of strange how I remember that particular sermon and even thought at the time, no I don't agree, the churches are falling away....



Bible Believer said...

Yes there is a pacifist tradition with Anabaptist. I think that is where the Amish inherited it. Yes they take more of the Bible literally such as headcoverings and more. I do worry about Mennonite churches in that I see the main ones hooked into the WCC and the ecumenical system. Perhaps there are off-shoots that are not. I certainly do not everyone that exists. I hope your pastor is able to remain in standing for the truth. I will check out the Art Katz articles. Thanks JL.

Bible Believer said...

thanks I wanted to explore the biblical reasons of full immersion and why it was relegated to one or a few? denominational branches.

Thanks Kathy for the article, I will definitely check that one out.

Dispensationalism according to some originated with Scofield, this will take more study of course.

Bible Believer said...

thanks I wanted to explore the biblical reasons of full immersion and why it was relegated to one or a few? denominational branches.

Thanks Kathy for the article, I will definitely check that one out.

Dispensationalism according to some originated with Scofield, this will take more study of course.

Anonymous said...

"If I followed David Cloud's advice, I would have my choice between a Rick Warren loving SBC with a covenant and an IFB with the pastor who screamed at the congregation that we must obey all government and never criticize a sitting president where it is going Dominionist. If a pastor gives you willies, and you think KNOWING DECEIVER, it's not a place the Holy Spirit is going to let you sit. "

He also wrote under number 3 : "I am not saying that a Christian should submit to a church that is teaching false doctrine or using a corrupt Bible or that is plainly departing from the Word of God. But there are many degrees of church problems and error. One must have godly wisdom to discern what is most important in church matters and what is less important."

But remember also, nobody is perfect, and nobody will ever give you perfect advice.


Anonymous said...

"Dispensationalism according to some originated with Scofield, this will take more study of course."

Some have said it started with John Nelson Darby.

I don't know, I focus more on what dispensationalism is and if it follows the bible or not.

David Cloud wrote this about Hyper dispensationalism.

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/beware_of_hyper_dispensatinalism.html

FaithGuy3 said...

David Cloud has put out a lot of good stuff like his free e-books(exposing Apostasy, CCM, defending the KJB, etc), as well as a number of articles on his web site. His video presentation exposing CCM(which is on Youtube) is excellent as well.

However, he DOES run a (Babel)church building - I'm not saying he's an occultist or Jesuit, but pastors et al who do run these church buildings have compromised their position, b/c they have to deal with a lot of money. Ye cannot serve God an mammon...

BB - that IFB pastor who put out a lot of good stuff on YT who's a Ruckmanite - by any chance, is he Sam Gipp?(he's somewhat tall with glasses)

I like some of the stuff a lot he puts out. However, when he gets into these "roundtable" discussions with these James White-types, he tends to stand down on defending the KJB a bit.(Ultimately, the false bible perversion supporters end up getting a bigger voice in this "discussion")

And you're right, when they get into a lot of these "back and forth debates" on each other(like Gipp and White do), that should raise a red flag. B/c Jesus Christ says OTHERWISE...

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Bible Believer said...

It's this fellow:

https://www.youtube.com/user/husky394xp?feature=watch

I don't know his name....

Here is the video with the Ruckman books shown...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqun0qBJtCQ

He has some good information, I see a video today I may even put up but why isn't he discerning Ruckman?

I've read David Cloud for years, he does have some good stuff, you are right about the church building stuff, I do get the feeling he would tell someone like me I am "in sin" for not being in a church. [well maybe not given other circumstances, I am a married woman and husband has made decisions on where we are to live etc]. I do go read way of life on occasion though I do not agree on every detail.

I wanted to post the bookshelf tour til he got to all the Ruckman books, he even has Cathy Burns on the shelf and is NWO aware so that was a disappointment.

Anonymous said...

I have a lengthy testimony about my IFB experience but the system told me I used too many words so I'll rewrite it and try and just highlight some of the worst problems I had.

The pastor was youngish, mid 30's, and I got the impression he felt he was going to do the best work for God that anyone has ever done, ie: he had notable pride. He was talkiing about church additions when there was no real need for expansion. His sermons were overly authoritarian and he would work himself up into a fevered anger where he would pace back and forth and wave his arms around. He would also snap his fingers at us and say "look up here" or "listen to me". In one month's time they had a week revival,a convention booth to do witnessing out of for 3 days, special services at other churches they expected everyone to attend. And when he preached his sermon on tithing, (he said it was his first ever), he told people that "God doesn't want your tips" so "give the full 10%" and he topped it by saying he felt missionaries even needed to give tithes to a church. His Scripture he used to back that up? None, but he said, "because if they don't, well, I just don't respect that!". He was so chauvenistic that he wouldn't even refer to women's goals in Christ in his preaching yet when he was not preaching he was quite eager to greet me (in comparison to the old ladies), but was also quick to refer me to his wife for friendship. Nothing like being told you're a threat when you aren't doing anything but attending service! Anyway, I left after a handful of services and felt forced to tell him the reasons why when he called my house wondering where I was. He didn't like my observations to say the least.

Bible Believer said...

I agree no one is perfect. I do think with David Cloud, maybe he will one day amend that article realizing how bad the churches are getting.

Bible Believer said...

Hi Anon, I have seen the ones who are really into the expansion of the church, and more. Some churches are building million dollar expansions even in this poor economy. I have seen the authoritarian ones too--to me that is one of the worse things about IFB churches where the Dominionism and authoritarianism is being stirr4ed into a toxic stew. Remember the guy I mentioned told us that no one should ever criticize a president because it was "wrong" to question authority? He included himself in that equation and was yelling at church members for disobeying him. I saw way too much arrogancy, and "my way or the highway". Some were nicer with that used car salesman vibe, while other's didn't even bother with social niceties. We used to have visiting IFB pastors at my old IFB and many would snap their fingers and use those techniques. I felt manipulated more then someone preaching a real sermon. I think some may learn that at preaching schools and camps and yes a lot of it was calls for money. The last thing many people want when they can barely pay their rent or put food on the table for their children is being told to add 10% to the governments cut and everyone else that has their hand out for their money. I knew people who were not part of churches because of the financial requirements. I've seen those types, I am fortunate God blessed me with finding a sincere pastor right when I was saved, but I think they are extraordinarily rare. Some get caught up in the system while others it is simply religious show time and a way to make a living. Many do not take well to criticism. I called the IFB with the authoritarian government loving pastor to see if a} He had left yet after some years [was going to ask name of pastor of church] and b} If there was an independent Bible studies for women [there wasn't]

He answered the phone instead of any secretary. I asked him a few questions about church beliefs, and then asked, "What do you think of Dominionism"? and he said "I don't know what that is". :/

Yes I am sorry you've had a bad experience too.
http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2013/01/odd-conversations-with-pastors.html

Anonymous said...

Hi Bible Believer,

Thanks for the support and for saying you're sorry I had a bad experience at the IFB church and for the link with the odd conversations with pastors. I'll read through that soon but its nice that there is support on this website from others who are also questioning and concerned about the goings-on in the church system these days. The really sad thing about the IFB church I had my bad experience at, is the local Christian children's orphanage attends this church. These are little children who have come out of abusive environments and while I know they get lots of love at the children's home, and the Sunday school teachers where they are during service have nice teachers, there are still 'revival' services where they are required to be in service. 1) They are bored because they don't understand and 2) hearing this authoritarian preacher yelling and snapping his fingers may cause them to regress back into their bad feelings from their past. I told the pastor that his yelling made my mind 'check-out' because it reminded me of past verbally abusive boyfriends. I had noticed my mood to go to church got more depressed with each week. What if this happens to these poor children who are made to attend there? Its just so sad! Well, blessings to you, Lori

Ben said...

Hey BB,

I attend a good Independant Baptist Church and, a day after reading your article, my Pastor delivered a sermon that I would really love you to listen to before you write on this issue. It addresses the issue of conforming to the doctrines and commandments of men rather than the Word of God. I have a great pastor who cares about the latter and speaks against the former with grace.

I don't question your liberty. Whether you listen to it or not is up to you. I really would love it if you did :)

The sermon is entitled "Worthless worship" and can be found here:

http://lhbc.org.au/media/sermon_list.php?groupid=64

God bless you.

Anonymous said...

I always thought baptism represented the burial and resurrection of Jesus. I believe that's why there's so much emphasis on having the body completely emerged.-James