Friday, March 8, 2013

They Use the Chi-Rho Because They are Lutherans?

Remember this article?

Why Do They Use the Chi-Rho?

Remember when I asked why would a discernment ministry use such an obviously Catholic symbol used by the Pope?  As I asked on the comment section... "How can they speak out against the Emergent movement when Lutheranism has retained sacramentalism and many facets of Rome?" One of the main endeavors of the Emergent movement IS to return Christians to sacramentalism. Why do I see their radio station promoted even by evangelicals and others when Lutheranism includes infant baptism, celebration of the "church calendar" and sacraments?

There are many kind Lutheran people don't get me wrong, there are some I care about very much who are told what I believe. Their churches have some truths regarding salvation by faith, but don't forget the Lutheran church is liturgical and sacramental. It is part of the false church system. The founder of Pirate Radio is Chris Rosebrough. 

 This website admits he converted to Lutheranism out of American Evangelicalism
 Chris Rosebrough is not only the courageous and generous man who spearheaded the effort to get Issues, Etc. back on the air, he also has a great “testimony” about how he converted to Lutheranism out of American Evangelicalism, in which, to quote Chris, he was on his way to hell. Confessional Lutheranism means salvation in Christ for Chris and we invite you to hear that story at the first annual Brothers of John the Steadfast national conference, Friday and Saturday, February 13-14, 2009 at Bethany Lutheran Church in Naperville, Illinois. 
The theme of the conference is one of BJS’s major emphases – “Establishing and Promoting New Lutheran Media in Support of the Gospel.” We will also be having speakers and sessions devoted to our other major themes: the liturgy, male headship in the church and at home, and confessional growth. 
Chris is a great choice to spearhead our list of speakers since he started his own internet Christian radio station, Pirate Christian Radio. Chris has also been intimately connected to the other two heroes of new Lutheran media, our friends Issues Etc. host Pastor Todd Wilken and show producer and the “hardest working man in radio” Jeff Schwarz. We also encourage you to check out Chris’s website Extreme Theology.

Discussion of the Pirate Christian Radio Station on a Lutheran website

More Lutheran Ties Discussed

Chris Rosebrough's Lutheran writings [in internet archives]

Chris Rosebrought attends and speaks at Brothers of John the Steadfast Conference, a Lutheran conference [LCMS]
After Mr. Rosebrough’s presentation, Bethany celebrated Vespers. The music and the liturgy were very beautiful, and took full advantage of the Missouri Synod’s excellent new hymnal Lutheran Service Book.
Ok, some of you may be asking, "So what if the guy is a Lutheran"?

Hey he could be very well sincere, but I definitely would disagree with many aspects of his theology, but you know how I always point out discrepancies? How on earth could a discernment ministry or one of its participants be connected to the Missouri Synod? You do know the Missouri Synod is an ecumenical branch of Lutheranism while WELS is the more conservative? Why on earth would you be warning about those "dastardly Emergents" if you are part of an ECUMENICAL LITURGICAL SACRAMENTAL CHURCH? Yes I know Missouri Synod is not the ECLA which is very liberal but they are part of ecumenical talks and dialogue with Rome. Given that the Emergent movement is essentially a road to Rome, isn't it a contradiction to warn about it, and then yourself be part of a liturgical, sacramental church? Isn't it a contradiction to be within a church that celebrates Lent and promotes infant baptism and claim to be "fighting for the faith"?

There are Lutheran churches that are more conservative, while they cling to the altar and false rites of Rome that have been altered or watered down, there are those Lutherans who reject the one world religion and what they see as the fall into apostasy.  I even have read a Lutheran newspaper that was very conservative before, it had family in the title if I am remembering right that considered the pope the Antichrist. So as I write this I realize there are differences even among Lutherans, same as there are among the Baptists, there is a wide range between a liberal ecumenical American Baptist for instance, and an independent fundamentalist baptist.

Speaking of Baptists though, Pirate Christian Radio is advertised on a lot of evangelical and Baptist websites and other discernment ministries like Apprising. Apprising, I do not trust given the advancement of Walter Martin. Pirate Christian Radio is advanced on a lot of supposed evangelical and other websites. I have removed the Museum of Idolatry link because of it's promotion of Pirate Christian Radio.

You know people may recognize some errors, Pirate Radio warns about Furtick, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyers, the Emergents, and tells some truths, from that angle,  but this does not mean they are not immersed into serious error themselves. 


Joe Krohn said...

As a life long Lutheran who was baptized as an infant, I honestly confess that I can not ever recall being outside of faith.

RCC has corrupted what was once good within herself. Lutherans kept what is good and threw out the rest. I don't believe the two bodies look at Holy Communion and Baptism the same way. I know I don't. I don't think you realize how well the liturgy, rightly done preaches the Gospel.

What it really comes down to is the right teaching of justification.

Christian Canuck said...

I find it is a new tactic of false teachers to "expose" those people who are obvious false teachers - TBN, Hinn and such - thus gaining trust of people. However they will not touch other false teachers because they are no doubt buddy buddy. Jacob Prasch is a great example of that. So now when I see a discernment type person/ministry yapping about Hinn,Warren etc...I wait to see if the real meat will come along or if its just a sham to keep people unaware of other false teachings.........

Bible Believer said...

Joe have you ever questioned Lutheranism?

I know its tough to take a look at a church you grew up within and probably even have a circle of family and community within it.

What was once good in the RCC?

I believe NOTHING. It was rotten from the start.

Lutherans of course do not believe in transubstantiaton but of course believe in the very close consubstantiation.

I believe liturgies are anti-gospel in general. There is no liturgy in the book of Acts. Liturgy is all rooted in the RCC and the Catholic Mass, even if there are daughter Protestant churches that got away from some of the worse false teachings, indulgences, Purgatory, they retained the false center of the Catholic Mass and liturgy.

Bible Believer said...

I am planning an article against sacraments and probably should include some information about how liturgy is false and rooted in RITUALS not relationship.

I agree Christian Canuck, that there is definitely a tactic out there of false teachers exposing obvious culprits. They seem to go after the same set over and over. You notice that? The Chrismaniacs are always on the list and Rick Warren. They expose who they deem SAFE to expose, Hinn, Warren etc. I have noticed the list seems to remain the SAME across the board too.

Anonymous said...

Infant baptism is a lie from satan. And so a person is "born a Christian" by water? Absurd. That's a path to hell. Lutheranism is not from God. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is from God, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ cannot include any works.

Joe Krohn said...

I'm looking forward to your article.

The Bible commands us to baptize and encourages Lord's see it clearly in Scripture. I'll be interested in your treatments of them.

Liturgy and ceremony has always been marks of the true church. Just because Acts doesn't speak of it doesn't mean it was not a part of the church.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Joe, well I will be working on that article next as well as some others. I will be dealing with the idea of liturgy and ceremony too.

I am glad you admit that Acts doesn't speak of some of these things..

" Just because Acts doesn't speak of it doesn't mean it was not a part of the church."

One thing I want to show is how false ceremonies came in from the deceivers very early on.

Bible Believer said...

I agree anon. I was baptized as a Catholic infant, and I wasn't anymore a Christian then the Dalai Lama. It meant nothing. It was just ritual.

Anonymous said...

you think the WELS is conservative? hahahahaha ... you have no idea

Martin Chemnitz is an ex WELS pastor who got kicked out for refusing the lie of universal salvation, he has this lovely little blog ...

Rob Bell and Apprising Ministries. The CORE and CrossWalk Are Examples of WELS Emergent Churches

here is the core

it aint your grandmammys Lutheranism at the WELS anymore ...

Anonymous said...

I got totally freaked out when at a WELS we were singing "songs of the suicided" as part of worship

the night Will soon Be Ending
by Jochen Klepper

his wiki

his exit strategy
On December 11, 1942, after Adolf Eichmann refused a visa for the couple's second daughter, the three of them committed suicide by turning on a gas valve - Jochen writing in his journal just before they died: Tonight we die together. Over us stands in the last moments the image of the blessed Christ who surrounds us. With this view we end our lives.[2] After their death, the diary was given by Jochen's sister Hildegard, to the Allied trial against Adolf Eichmann where it was used as evidence against him

I asked my Pastor why we were offering this "spotted crippled wrinkled" song offering to God and was told we were to remember the good Jochen did in his early life and ignore his family suicide ... hmmm

Christian Canuck said...

Everything about the RCC is rooted in paganism - from their rituals to their mother/son worship they call Mary/Jesus, to their worship of Mary who is their goddess. The people often don't realize this though. I am ex RCC, born again now and I had not figured this out right off. When I did I left.

For Lutherans - do you not believe in the real presence in your communion as the RCC do? I know you don't believe it to their extreme..I also have issues with infant baptism...

Bible Believer said...

Anonymous said...

I should have clarified that WELS is conservative statement, conservative" compared to the ELCA and LMCS, but not conservative to a bible-believing Christian. LOL

I would suspect like all the other denominations, they are going from bad to worse fast. They are already rooted in the errors of Lutheranism.

Did Rob Bell come out of WELS?

I ran into the crosswalk links while research this article.

I thought the Ken Silva was a Southern Baptist. There is some weird Lutheran-Southern Baptist overlap going there, as much as he posts to Pirate Christian Radio. Hey maybe he doesnt know?

Thanks for the links. I saw the Ichabod website, so is that a guy exposing things he disagrees in WELS while being in WELS? I had a hard time figuring that one out.

Yes The Core, definitely is Emergent.

Hey the Emergent movement has infused into every denomination out there.

Bible Believer said...

What a disturbing song..I looked it up..
it refers to God as ONE...,%20The%20Night%20Will%20Soon%20Be%20Ending.pdf

Committing suicide in an act of despair, and taking other family members along including children-the step daughter, is beyond disturbing. I have in-laws [now deceased] who lived through Nazi Germany, they weren't destined for the camps but they had to do things like live in the woods and run over borders with fear of being shot. Yes I know suicide is a complex subject but why is the author of this song held up as an example of faith?

They mention that suicide in the link too asking why didn't his powerful affirmation of faith hold up?

I can see why this bothered you.

Bible Believer said...

Lutherans do believe in a real presence in the communion bread. I know some Lutherans and even had this discussion. It is NOT the exact same as Rome's description but it is very close.
The false church will be surrounded around the false table of idol worship.

"Lutherans: Sacramental Union
Main article: Eucharist in the Lutheran Church
See also: The Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ—Against the Fanatics

Lutherans believe that the body and blood of Christ are "truly and substantially present in, with and under the forms" of the consecrated bread and wine (the elements), so that communicants orally eat and drink the holy body and blood of Christ Himself as well as the bread and wine (cf. Augsburg Confession, Article 10) in this Sacrament. The Lutheran doctrine of the Real Presence is more accurately and formally known as "the Sacramental Union." It has been inaccurately called "consubstantiation". This term is specifically rejected by some Lutheran churches and theologians since it creates confusion about the actual doctrine, and it subjects the doctrine to the control of an abiblical philosophical concept in the same manner as, in their view, does the term "transubstantiation."

For Lutherans, there is no Sacrament unless the elements are used according to Christ's institution (consecration, distribution, and reception). This was first articulated in the Wittenberg Concord of 1536 in the formula: Nihil habet rationem sacramenti extra usum a Christo institutum ("Nothing has the character of a sacrament apart from the use instituted by Christ"). Some Lutherans use this formula as their rationale for opposing in the church the reservation of the consecrated elements, private masses, the practice of Corpus Christi, and the belief that the reliquæ (what remains of the consecrated elements after all have communed in the worship service) are still sacramentally united to the Body and Blood of Christ. This interpretation is not universal among Lutherans. The consecrated elements are treated with reverence; and, in some Lutheran churches, are reserved as in Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican practice. The external Eucharistic adoration is usually not practiced by most Lutherans except for bowing, genuflecting, and kneeling to receive the Eucharist from the Words of Institution and elevation to reception of the holy meal. The reliquæ traditionally are consumed by the celebrant after the people have communed, except that a small amount may be reserved for delivery to those too ill or infirm to attend the service. In this case, the consecrated elements are to be delivered quickly, preserving the connection between the communion of the ill person and that of the congregation gathered in public Divine Service."

From Wikipedia

Anonymous said...

the guy who writes that blog is Martin Chemnitz, they booted him from WELS, he still runs a sunday service on USTREAM

Anonymous said...

Martin Luther was nothing but a heretic(Matthew 7:10). How can you have a church based on that? He believed that a person could be saved with baptism. He believed in infant baptism. We see this in his catechisms. He said "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..."

He also said alot of other crazy stuff. Not to mention his mind games concerning the second commandment. He switches the commanments around to avoid the second. He takes the tenth commandment and divides it into two.

Joe Said:

"The Bible commands us to baptize and encourages Lord's see it clearly in Scripture. I'll be interested in your treatments of them."

Yes, a SAVED christian should be baptised, AFTER they are saved. But, if they never get baptised, it doesn't matter towards their salvation, not one bit.

Somebody should have told Jesus that Martin Luther said a person cannot be saved without baptism. Jesus must have not known this when he saved the thief on the cross.

news4themasses said...

Bible Believer,
Great to see you exposing Pirate Christian radio and its founder Chris Rosebrough. I called this one a long time ago but I never wrote about it specifically. I tried to warn others who were giving him head and even appearing to try to link up with him as though he's some celebrity. There are more like him with the same M.O, they warn about some things but not about others and they in fact seek to get glory and reputation rather than truly expose all the false teachers because in the end they are friends with many of them. Most people who frequent these blogs will likely see the same people leaving comments at a host of different blogs, this is one clue. Another is they also have communication behind the scenes which many readers may not be aware of. They back each other, like how Jacob Prasch will never say anything in print some of the junk he says about Chuck in person and he'll always back Chuck in print because his income comes from being able to speak at Calvary Chapels and their prophecy conferences (in and outside of the US). It is a big sham. Anyway, just glad to see you see Pirate Radio for what it is.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks news4themasses. I kept seeing Pirate radio advertised all over the place and wondering what the deal was. I wonder how many baptists or evangelicals who read Apprising or other places, even know that this radio station being promoted to them is headed by a Lutheran. I guess this is more of the post-denominationalism of the apostate church but you can see how that does not add up.

I even thought the Museum of Leaven was run by an evangelical so who would know? I had the link on this blog for a long time, and while they were accurate in what was exposed, I guess what was even more important what was not said.

I used to read another blog written by someone who went to a Christian radio station and blog is now defunct and believe they no longer are on the radio, where they exposed a lot but a lot of things didn't make sense, choosing a pro-Catholic moderator for comments and referring to liturgical events at their church.

This reminded me of that experience finding out this guy is really a Lutheran.

You see the weird "networks" and "friendships" and almost what I would call "staged fights", you ever notice the times that one them comes out against another almost as a technique in the way they market themselves?

You see a lot of discrepancies. You also do see them post a lot of comments at blogs. It's weird, I want to comment MORE on blogs I like, but just run out of the time. With some of these folks, it seems their time is endless.

I agree about them backing each other.

Roy Allen said...

I searched Rosebrough when I used to listen to WVW/Worldview Weekend and found out through links, from Chris'own page, going to sites with catholic/Anglican/Lutheran views. Brannon's like an auctioneer, going from one topic to the next to lose is audience and doesn't really respond to correction if not many people are catching on to his ignoring their complaints. And the money factor is always brought up to buy this and that just to get the same old recycled arguments and never really focusing on the MONSTER of the day and of ANCIENT times that is Satan & Satan's "church" that Satan uses to defile and birth daughters who go out to defile GOD's Pasture by shoving the week and trampling upon them and leading them to dirty water and not the LIVING Water of GOD's Holy Word.

Roy Allen said...

I searched Rosebrough when I used to listen to WVW/Worldview Weekend and found out through links, from Chris'own page, going to sites with catholic/Anglican/Lutheran views. Brannon's like an auctioneer, going from one topic to the next to lose is audience and doesn't really respond to correction if not many people are catching on to his ignoring their complaints. And the money factor is always brought up to buy this and that just to get the same old recycled arguments and never really focusing on the MONSTER of the day and of ANCIENT times that is Satan & Satan's "church" that Satan uses to defile and birth daughters who go out to defile GOD's Pasture by shoving the week and trampling upon them and leading them to dirty water and not the LIVING Water of GOD's Holy Word.

Anonymous said...

Pirate "Christian" Radio website and Chris R...why the "Fighting"...I thought we were suppose to "Contend"...and what's with the orange & black Halloween colors, skeleton, Masonic compass, possibly upside-down crosses with a weird hidden reptile, and the one eye (patch)????????

The symbolism. Sometimes it just seems too preposterous.

Just noticing. Aka Alert

Bible Believer said...

I agree. Hey the one eye patch says it all doesn't it?

Sun ray symbolism on TWITTER

All the rest of the symbols--very bad news...