Sunday, January 13, 2013

Odd Conversations with Pastors

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends upon his not understanding it.”

– Upton Sinclair

Caveat before I begin this, There are exceptions to this rule, men who are truly following God and preaching His Word out there. I've known a few, but this is an article I want to write based on what I have seen and heard out there. Make sure you have read this article if you have not:

Keeping Them Ignorant In The Pews

I thought about calling this one "Keeping Them Ignorant in the Pulpits" but then thought that would be too harsh and didn't want to malign the few good guys out there.

I have been finding out, I do not want to talk to ANY pastors anymore. Some of the conversations have gotten strange. I think about the times I was looking for churches, and also even calling and trying to find bible studies to go for Christian fellowship.

Most of my readership here, is well informed, and Christian, and know what is going on. Why are the numbers so rare among the pastors?  Is there are a "I don't want to know" mentality that allows brains to be shut off for the sake of the church boards, fitting in and keeping the numbers in seats? When one has to preach an "exciting sermon" every week rather then a Holy Spirit inspired one, perhaps the self consciousness in such an endeavor, has a person even more focus on "Am I doing this right?" "Am I fitting in?"  I've written about what the Jesuit influenced seminaries are doing to pastors out there. We know there are the knowing deceivers, who I do not think feigning ignorance would beyond their game plan.  The truth is too, the line is drawn with those the Holy Spirit is teaching and basically those who are NOT being taught by the Holy Spirit AT ALL.

I can understand a humble man called of God who never went on to any higher education, and any wisdom of this world. Give me that guy even if he knows only what it took to be born again, and what he has read in his own Bible and what the Holy Spirit showed him, sometimes I think if I lived in the middle of Appalachia, I could perhaps have a chance of a local church or Christian fellowship. Give me those who are SINCERE. My head hurts because the numbers who aren't is pretty high.

You all know there is the snooty academia set, who seem like they know so much, but know so little. You all know the types that think Obama is a great president and that gun control will solve all the violence in America. There are of course the right sided academics, who speak of church history and culture wars, but lack God-given wisdom on human nature.  Some in the evangelical world have the talent to deceive that is awe-inspiring using subsets of subsets of theological inquiry, save for the Holy Spirit. Remember the Nephilim stuff I warned about? How many avenues of confusion are there? Plenty.

But what about the suit jacket and tie set who live in the suburbs and claim a long list of letters after their name, who tell me they do not know what the word ecumenical or Dominionism means? I clasp my hands to my head remaining polite, with that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. They've never heard of the phrase "one world religion"? They've been a fundamentalist or other preacher for 20 years, and that concept is "new"? I've had a few conversations that probably would boggle a few minds out there.

You all don't want to know the number of strange conversations I've had with church preachers, when I was doing the church search, or bible study search, where this sort of  ignorance always came up. You never can talk to some of these guys either like a human being, it's all pontificating on high. This is like an auto mechanic saying "I don't know what an alternator is, or a dentist saying "I don't know what a molar is." Am I strange to wonder why extreme voids in their knowledge even exist? Now remember faith is not a "what do you know" contest, there's many going to heaven, who just knew enough to know God's love and be born again, but this is something I've thought about.

When I talk to the pastors, I don't think I am being a smarty pants asking complicated questions about the book Malachi or of complicated heresies like soul sleep, but just trying to find an actual bible believing church. I found only two, one a charismatic one, and another that even used the KJV but kept multitudes of errors. They always treated me like I was the first person who ever asked them a basic theological question in their life.

Am I sinning to even write this article? Maybe I am too prideful, acting like a know-it-all and pride goeth before a fall and all. But, I have to admit, it bothers me that they seem to know so little. Over the years, I have had to define these two words to the majority...Dominionism and ecumenical.  I can understand the man or woman in the street not knowing these words but don't they use these words even in the mainstream fallen away Christian magazines like "Christianity Today"? Are they just playing dumb to not answer my questions when I am trying to find out where they stand or believe when it comes to their churches? When they say to me, "I do not know what that means", I am of too polite of a nature, to say, "You got to be kidding me right?". I usually explain the best I can, but by then I know the best thing is to move on.

I've talked to many of them. Remember how I told you all, I was searching for a church home far and wide and even have searched for bible studies to attend to find Christian fellowship? The search has been done for some time. I've written about this a little bit already. There are others of you in my boat too, having left with heartache many false churches or trying to find one within your community or within a decent drive to it. You try to appeal to some of these pastors always seeming to hit those same brick walls.To be honest, I feel like I have talked to the same guy over and over.

Some of us have tried the approach in finding other Christians via Bible studies and more, but one thing you find is at best, you find yourself witnessing at groups like that, or trying to share truths, if you find a place to go that isn't pastor barricaded and where a few like-minded or open thinkers may exist but at worse feeling that sinking feeling of seeing so many people who are tied to the church system totally that even speaking of churches falling away is enough to offend them.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Independent Bible studies outside of mainline liturgical churches which of course are no option at least in my area seem extraordinarily rare. All seem to be supervised by pastors and with their full involvement or relegated only to Wednesday night with the pastor leading the show and none of the give and take and personal approach of what most of us consider a normal "Bible study". The other day, a very nice person I know, but who is still in the church system told me, "You must compromise Bible Believer, what good is it doing you to remain alone outside the churches? You are missing out!" She means well, and she knows I miss Christian fellowship, but what price do you pay in seeking it out? I laughed and said something along the lines, "God would tell me to leave" and "Well they'd toss me out anyway once I'd open my mouth a too few times." No this doesn't mean confronting during a church service  or doing anything like that but even just personal conversations.

You find out quick, that a dead church or one teaching false things is a bad place to be. God will tell you get out. Can you sit there smiling while some pastor praises Glenn Beck or Mother Teresa or reads from three different [all false bibles] during a Bible study? I couldn't either. If you are going to some place now and facing that time where you think, why are they falling for this and that, or thinking every time you open your mouth, that no one understands what you are talking about. I've been there. Trust me on that.

I get tempted you know, the devil says things to me like, "you've been a Christian without any local fellowship except for a couple individuals going on 7 years, where is this going to end up?"  But you know, lets go back to what I wrote on the scattered sheep article, and others, could we be in the time where the falling away is now almost completed? Outside of extremely rare independents, where is a decent church? Even unbelievers today tell me time and time again, that the churches are so rotten all you have to do is open up a newspaper to see secular news. A lot of IFB pastors by the way, even still hold to the church system. A few good ones out there, will admit, yes there is a falling away and many people are in the place where there is no good church but there are many thundering out there, in all denominations that to be out of church is to be in sin. How many but those most honest who make their living via the churches are going to admit, there is a long line of people departing?

 I had one old pastor I could sharpen a little iron with but sadly I seem unable to have changed his mind about how the "right" is deceptive, though in his case, he is sincere, and to me that makes all the difference. Even the sincere ones seem rare. I still find myself asking though "How come God isn't showing him these things?" I've told him direct. I believe he is born again, but sometimes it's really hard for me to understand, I don't know everything either. I try to meet people where they are at, and I know it took me time and years to learn many things myself or be shown them. There are many sincere folks even still within the church system who simply don't know. Remember God in Revelation 18 calls for MY PEOPLE to come out of her.  I was absolutely clueless on such things as Christian Zionism, even just 4 or 5 years ago. I don't want to become some shrill person, who lacks grace and understanding towards people.

But I have to admit, with a lot of the conversations with pastors, I left the conversations in person whether it was on the telephone or in person, very disappointed and dejected. I never fought anyone or got in any arguments though I stated what I believed. But you notice, it's hard to talk to so many of them. There is an empty space there of disconnection. It has to be spiritual.  It is something that is very saddening.It makes you wonder if these times have come NOW:

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

I suppose I would know it right off, if I met another one with the Holy Spirit indwelling. There would be interest and excitement in the things of God and desire for truth. The conversations would go a lot different.

PS: I question the very idea of a church pastor. I believe the Bible has set out roles for church elders and teachers, etc, but the "one man show" came out of the error of the Nicolaitans. Most of the church system, is under the "one man show" system.

1 Peter 5:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

5 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


jesusremainskingofkings said...

If you live in Sydney I'd love to fellowship.

Kathy Bonham said...

I agree with you so very much. I am so glad I came across your blog. At least I see there are others that feel as I do.

Anonymous said...

"could we be in the time where the falling away is now almost completed? Outside of extremely rare independents, where is a decent church?"

Yes, We are in that time of the Great Falling Away. I've seen many dvds on it, and heard many radio shows, and I personally see it also. The church crowd are not discerning for the most part because they think the one man show is pleasing to GOD and they do this because they do not have to read GOD's Word for themselves since the "pastor" is doing it for them. They can go on watching their TV because he can't and won't correct them on that because he stays glued to that demon tube too. GOD corrected me on that as I was seeing how dark the advertising and movie previews and nighttime show previews were. I've been walking with the Lord for 9yrs this past December and I did have a church and loved the Sunday school because the class was made up of 30yo-100yo. The noon service was full for the most part but there was something missing. I left when they pulled out a TV and told our class that we would be studying a "purpose driven life". I had no idea that that was coming. Hit me like a brick. It was a 30min drive that I enjoyed until that Rick Warren announcement. The LORD has taught me much because we/his flock love to search out things and the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth to us. Prophecy is unfolding before our eyes to the Praise of the Lord Jesus Christ. For even the economies of the world and the nations raging are all lining up to fulfill GOD's Word. Going back to the pastors for a moment. Some pastors online that I've seen are discerning but they go cold on you if you are "forsaking the fellowship of the brethren". Yet they don't recommend a local assembly at all. Seems and if they don't know that we are in the last days and are not to just walk up into some gathering because it "says" that it is a fellowship. That's not discerning to do something like that and I returned my personal opinion on that matter to a "pastor" who gave me a one liner as an email reply. He told me I was rebellious. I told him that it was reckless to give that type of reply and not have any sympathy for GOD's Sheep who will not place ourselves among a pack of wolves just so we could "appear" to be fulfilling scripture. The key word is Brethren. He failed to get it but I don't worship him. Draw nearer to Jesus, keeping our mind stayed on HIM as we see the madness increasing in this world and it is increasing but we are the SALT to keep this world sanitized until GOD's time is set for the unbelieving world to be judged. In the meantime, keep praying for family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, the nation, and the alien, the fatherless, and the widows. America's judgment has already begun.
Your insights are correct and you have many brothers and sisters out hear who are just as you are. We want true bible fellowship and not doctrines of men.

Anonymous said...

Hi There,

The Lord just called me out of the "Church system" last week. Me and my kids had been at this one church for four years. We were very involved but my heart was always disconnected to a certain degree. I had come out of quite of few churches that were under false teaching. When my kids and I arrived at this last church I thought I may have found a safe place to rest. Slowly but surely I began to discern things within this church that were not of God's Spirit but were works of the flesh. The leadership lacked discernment and it started to get worse and worse. I began to see a darkness come upon the church and my heart was mourning. I would come home from church and shut myself in a private room and just sob over what I was seeing. Over the last couple months, especially, I began to notice a "works gospel" being promoted more and more. If you do "this" or "that" God will bless you. The Lord told me to pull out of Children's ministry last week and to stop going. This is week two. Please pray for me and my kiddos that the Lord would uphold us and that we would walk by His Spirit. God Bless!

jetset said...

Thank you! I feel your pain. The Lord is grieving too. If nothing else this pain and discouragement gives us a glimpse into how our Father must feel. Hopefully inspiring us to cling even more to Him....Jeanette Bush

Anonymous said...


I wish times were simpler, and that I did not know what I know. I really would like to raise my children in church, and not have to be so "weird."

We have visited two churches recently. Yesterday we visited a church that used to be Presbyterian, but withdrew from the denomination some years ago because the denomination was too liberal. I was hopeful. We attended the first service. There were probably 125 people, and my children were the only children because it was the "traditional worship" service. They told us that next time we should try the later service because there are all the young families and about 50 children.

I believe that is sooooo unhealthy to separate the elderly from the young families. It is supposed to be a church family, with all ages learning from and loving each other. When I was a child, there were so many of the elderly in the church that encouraged me to love God's word, and adopted me as a granddaughter. I really wish I could give that experience to my children, but so far, I can't.

And the "tithing" issue is a very big deal for my husband. We often truly don't have enough money, and have had to accept a little help from grandparents and WIC for grocery assistance. But these churches expect and preach that all should give 10% pre-tax to support the lovely buildings and the 8 + on staff for even the small churches.

So sorry for anonymous Roy just above me. I too, in my old town and church, did not attend the preaching, but had a wonderful Sunday school bible study where we shared prayer requests, and studied the word of God together - almost two years in Romans once. I sent the children to the children's Sunday school, which was taught by an older couple that really emphasized memorizing God's word. But then it changed. They "segregated" our study, which had myself, at that time in my young 30's with baby with me, a couple other young 30's, and many up to late 80's. It was healthy. But then they split old and young, and got a new bible study leader who was on staff and who began indoctrination studies, rather than believers studying the bible together and applying it in daily life, encouraging each other on the path.

So frustrating. Thank you for support. If I could even find a church that came close, I would gladly go. I miss it.

Anonymous said...

Oh boy, can I relate. My wife and I have been out of the church system 8+ years and it has not been easy, to say the least. Right now I'm in the process of separating with a long time "Brother" because basically he's in and I'm out. You can not talk truth with church system people - Don

Selina said...

I know exactly what you are going through. My husband and I came out of the "church system" nearly 13 yrs. ago. we had a few like minded believing friends who started gathering in our home for bible study,prayer, fellowship and to share a meal together.We now have about 20 believers who gather in our home three times a week and we are so blessed. We receive such encouragement and strength from each other as we see all the things going on in this world. I would encourage you to try to find someone who believes like you do and begin to meet together in a home enviroment. For " where two or more of you are gathered together in My Name, there I am in the midst of you."Matt. 18:20

JL said...

Hey BB im going to send you something in private.

JL said...

1st Peter 5:3 is the main problem for these churches. Im glad you quoted that. At that same church i was at, my husband politely rebuked the pastor on his stance on permitting women pastors. The pastor politely told my husband that it was "different" back then, and those verses dont apply today. We were definitely one of the "weeds" at that church.

jon cramer said...

Love your blog and look forward to seeing what new items that you have posted.I too have been looking near and far for a church home. I don't expect much just some basic solid preaching. I have found that I just have to zip my lip just to get along. It makes me feel like I am doing something wrong. Any way keep up the good work.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Kathy. It helps me to meet people here who are facing the same things.

Anon yes, defintely the great falling away is here. Most of the church crowds are enamored with having their ears tickled, they have also been indoctrinated into believing that those who leave are the "sinful, weird, rebellious" ones.

A lot of laziness runs this show because of instead of reading scripture for themselves and the Bible and praying they let the "pastors" do it all for them. Of course many do this having been trained this way by the church system their entire lives. I have visited churches where you think things "may" be okay but usually only for a very short time, and then you see Rick Warren pop up. That's enough for me to get up and immediately walk out.
There was one church I was visiting for a bible study, that was an independent not pastor directed and I warned those folks about Rick Warren, but this was years ago and I saw how that church was changed quite rapidly.

I agree that some of the pastors seems to have some truth, but yes they will "go cold" on you for "forsaking the fellowship". I have seen that. My old sincere IFB pastor, seems understanding about this in my case but that is very rare. As people know here, I have serious concerns about the IFB system too now even if there are some good independents out there. They have been trained too, remember that those out of the church system even fundamentalist churches are not obeying God, usually they will quote Hebrews 10:25. You will see some of them write on line like Dave Cloud, but I disagreed with Dave Cloud to "find any church" even one that is "close". I couldn't find that old article but I saw this...


"Another essential key to fruitful church membership is to have a right attitude toward pastoral authority.

“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation” (Heb. 13:7).

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you” (Heb. 13:17).

We have looked at the emphasis God has placed on the local church. That emphasis is woven into the very warp and woof of the New Testament and is undeniable. It is God’s will that every Christian be a faithful, fruitful, contributing member of a sound church. That being the case, it is not surprising that we are exhorted to obey those who have the rule over us. The verses quoted above are strong; we are to obey our church leaders. They are not to be dictators; they do not have unlimited authority; they are not to be obeyed unquestioningly; but they ARE rulers. Hebrews uses plain language, and I believe it means exactly what it says. Not all Christians have equal authority in this world. Some are rulers and the others are to obey those rulers."

That concerns me.

One of the worse translations even among IFBs is the mistranslation of Romans 13 and then applying it to church pastors and government.

Reread that line


from Hebrews 13.

Ponder that one a bit. Don't you think its a bit arrogant for pastors to assume that is them from just reading the Bible, OR does it mean JESUS< GOD and THE APOSTLES--whose writings were published in God's WORD and who were INSPIRED BY GOD.

I am going to go with the latter.

I consider "pastoral authority" considering what Jesus preached about the Nicolatians to be one of the biggest deceptions going out there.

Call no man master, and the Holy Spirit is to be our teacher!


Bible Believer said...

It is not the pastors who have "rule" over us. Now tell me what you think of what I have written here. Some may disagree. This is something I have been thinking about quite a bit. Who has the rule over the Christian?

Bible Believer said...

Anon, I have been told I am "rebellious too". I have been told to stay away from discernment websites, that was kind of funny because by then i was warning about the Catholic interfaith stuff and one world religion online and that my job was to just sit silent and a pew and "obey". I have seen the one line dismissals, and the shut-downs. They will not talk to you. Instantly you know they see you as a "problem" and by then honest conversation is tossed out the window. I agree it's about drawing closer to Jesus Christ, not obeying man over God but sadly so many are doing so. They are under the yoke and bondage of men. Some leave the Catholic church and the bondage of the Pope only to find a new "pope" even if one with less power and money, but the power over their souls and lives and disconnection from God and God's Word remains.

I agree to keep praying. I pray for those in the church system too, Revelation 18, God's people to COME OUT OF HER. Yes I think there are more of us then many know though the church pastors will try and scatter us and make us feel like we are alone out there, we are not.

Bible Believer said...

I noticed this in David Cloud's article too..

"In light of exhortations such as Hebrews 13, 7, 17 I must find a church that is following the Word of God, and I must then obey my leaders in that church; I must support that church in every way possible. That is the will of God for every Christian.

The leaders, in turn, will give an account to the Lord for their teaching and decisions. THEY HOLD THE GREATER RESPONSIBILITY, AND I, AS A CHURCH MEMBER, WILL NOT GIVE ACCOUNT FOR EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON IN THE CHURCH.

Obviously, this does not mean that we are to close our eyes to false teaching and sin, but it DOES mean that I am not to try to impose my views in all matters upon the church and its leaders. I must remember that I am not the pastor of the church; I therefore don’t have the wisdom, the unction, or the responsibility for that. I must submit to those who are the pastors and I must allow them to make decisions with which I might not agree, submitting myself because God has told me to do so.

The church member will never find a pastor with whom he agrees 100%. Think about it. This would be impossible. The only one with whom I agree with 100% is myself, and sometimes I disagree with myself! We all know this in theory but the practice of it is often a difficult matter."


This is almost impossible advice, find a church that is teaching God's Word? How many are those. I also notice the whole MIDDLE MAN, aspect of what is expressed above like the pastor is to take on responsiblities the believers is to hold for themselves and their spiritual life and relationship with God. Back to what I said, they get Hebrews 13 completely wrong and misdirect it. Any other Christians want to chime on what I am saying here.

I probably need to write an entire article on this one...

The IFB pastors especially in times like these are setting people up to be even more deceived. We know even the fundamentalist churches are being deceived via Dominionism etc.

Bible Believer said...

Hi Anon,

I am glad you obeyed God when being called out of the church system, I know it is not easy to leave especially a place you have been in for a number of years. Yes, I relate to even the heart being somewhat disconnected, that definitely will happen. A person holding on wanting to hear the few truths preached but then noticing the other problems. I have seen plenty of the pastors with no discernment. That had to be horrible to watch the darkness come over the church but yes many who have left false churches even have noticed a "change". By the way remember the "good" IFB I praised years ago, my first church I was in after being saved, that pastor left moved to a new congregation and my old church members some of whom are discerning told me with the pastor that took over who is the most recent that they believe he is a false teacher and many left. I have written at least 4 of my old church members and told them I have not been in a church for years, and warned them, some of them I think even are out but others have found other churches. They live in a rural area, so there are more options but I have prayed for them as well. With my old church, all I had to do is go to the website to know he was, false art, and symbols right on there. So the old IFB, I was in, well things have changed drastically. Satan is infiltrating all the churches.

There is a giant I believe Catholic driven "works" gospel being pushed. The whole David Chan sort of flavor stuff. One book I found at the library was called The Hole in the Gospel. I only skimmed it but had a discussion book too that came with it, and it was all about good works, and a focus on third world nations, and doing the bidding of the global elite. Basically the book was an advertisement for UN millennium goals. That stuff is infiltrating the churches like crazy. I see the ads here for churches. The blasphemy of calling the gospel INCOMPLETE, also makes me sick.

I will pray for you, I know it is difficult, when I even left the Calvary Chapel church after a short time, I lost friends. Do explain to your children you are desiring to stay faithful to God's Word and the churches are teaching false things, well do this the best they can understand it.

Bible Believer said...

Jeanette, thanks, I believe the Lord is grieving too over all this, and I believe this is why God loved us enough to warn us. So many warnings about false teachers, the falling away and false church system. God will look out for us, even if we feel alone.

Isaiah 41: 10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Bible Believer said...

Joy, I believe one mark of a false church is to separate young from old.

That's enough for me to have nothing to do with a church because I know it's part of an overall agenda. Separate the young from the older people who can impart wisdom and warning for the indoctrination they wish to do on the young.

Especially they love to do this under the guise of the TRADITIONAL VS the CONTEMPORARY service, but then I wonder if the older folks have been so disenfranchised by now, that many have left like ourselves.

It is very unhealthy, it is being done with a false purpose.

I do not believe in tithing and believe that one is to take care of their own family first. God will direct giving as you are able. There are other ways to "give" too beyond money.

These pastors make big money getting a 10% cut of everyone's income in the church. We certainly do not see the money going to the poor in the church but new sound systems, international "missions" trips, and other things like that. So do not feel guilty, that is based on false preaching as well.

I am glad that old couple was there to help you in the Bible study. As I wrote in the article, I think there is a reason I cannot even find an INDEPENDENT Bible study, that is not pastor controlled or directed. The liturgicals and other extreme liberal churches have them but I guess those churches are so far gone, and usually they are studying church sponsored books, that they figure they do not have to control the studies as much.

I miss being part of a local church family too, trust me on that one.

Bible Believer said...

Selina, that is great you have home church going, with like minded believers meeting together. I think that is a good option. I always have my eyes open for other believers. I have prayed to God to have that one day be possible and have searched on my end as well, and prayed to find a home church.

Bible Believer said...

Don, I'll pray for you and your wife. It's been around 7 years for me now out of the church system. So you have a friend who is going in and out to churches? I wonder if he is letting the temptations get to him. I met a few folks who even went back to the church system who told me they could not take the loneliness of being "out", and admitted the churches had serious problems. I do not see this as a good thing, not at all, even if I understand and have felt the temptation myself, then you are compromising and becoming part of a system where there will be bad influences and I think doing so knowingly when you have been TOLD and WARNED, gives you more accountability before God. I have tried to talk truth with church people. It is very difficult, many say but "MY PASTOR SAYS" and then I respond but the BIBLE SAYS..

cmnr0912 said...

Thanks for another great article! We have been out of the church system for about 7 yrs ourselves, and thought we do miss the fellowship, we know that we are correct in not compromising the things that God has revealed to us. I mean, what do you chooose to compromise on, and if you do where do you stop? So better just not to compromise at all. We are seen as the "fruitcakes" in our extended families and some probably think we are going to hell b/c we aren't in a local church, but that's ok..we don't answer to them anyway right?!

Anonymous said...

Appreciated so much of what you shared. I know it speaks the heart of many seems to be scattered all over as a result of churches becoming apostacized.

Wouldn't worry to much about not going to a church at this time. God knows your heart and from what you shared it sounds like you honestly would, like many of us, like to find one we can feel safe and able to grow in. The up side to this is that you know the difference between a healthy and an unhealthy one. Spiritually and otherwise.

Have you thought of beginning a home fellowship yourself?

By the way I am conservative, but an egalitarian-not liberal or feminist. And I did vote for Obama and I do support better gun control measures. Violence never be stopped until the Day of the Lord, however, as far as I know, no one is taking anyone's guns away, just increasing the sanction on making sure the wrong people cannot purchase or legally owned them. For those that would like to take a pot shot at me for my support on the two, consider:


"Part of the problem, particularly in the United States, is that cultures become so polarized that it is often assumed that if you tick one box you’re going to tick a dozen other boxes down the same side of the page – without realising that the page itself is highly arbitrary and culture-bound. We have to claim the freedom, in Christ and in our various cultures, to name and call issues one by one with wisdom and clarity, without assuming that a decision on one point commits us to a decision on others."
N.T. Wright

God bless everyone in their desire to fellowship and to follow His Word.

Nancy said...

I agree that the one man show church service is very wrong. I'd like to find a church where there is no sermon, where the Word is read out loud by people in the pews, and praise and singing happens in the pews, not on a stage. As long as it's a stage show I will prefer to stay home. I can read God's Word, and I can pray, thank you, and I don't need a man with an advanced degree to tell me some novel new interpretation of God's Word. For now I thank God that I have found three other people who come over for Bible study once a week and we depend solely, completely on the Lord for His guidance. And we learn the way God teaches, not the way the seminaries and their spawns do.

Steve Finnell said...

Was there ever and office of, The Pastor, approved of or mentioned in New Testament Scripture? No, there was not. There was no single pastor appointed as the authority over any local church congregation.

The word pastor is mention one time. (Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, (NKJV)
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, (ESV)

Pastors were shepherds. Bishops, elders, and overseers are one and the same; and they were the pastors or shepherds.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; (NKJV)
1 Timothy 3:2 So an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. (New Living Bible)
1 Timothy 3:2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, (New International Version)

Titus 1:5-7....appoint elders in every city....7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, (NKJV)
Titus 1:7 Since an overseer manages God's households, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.(NIV)
Titus 1:7 An elder is a manager of God's household, so he must live a blameless life. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker, violent, or dishonest with money. (NLT)

Acts 20:17,28 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you
overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (NKJV)
Acts 20:28 Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as bishops to be shepherds for God's church which he acquired with his own blood. (God's Word-Translation)

Notice that the apostle Paul called for the elders (plural), he did call for The Pastor (singular).

Acts 14:23 So when they had appointed elders in every church,and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

The apostle Paul and Barnabas appointed elders (plural) in every church congregation. They did not appoint a pastor (singular) in every church congregation.

Elders, bishops, and overseers are the same office and their responsibilities were to pastor or shepherd the individual church congregations.


Men today like to called Reverend Pastor.
Reverend means awesome. So they want you to refer to them as Awesome Pastor.

Psalms 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name. (KJV)

The Lord has earned the right to be called reverend (awesome).
Is there any man that has earned the right to be called Reverend (awesome) Pastor?



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Anonymous said...

I also am un-churched due to not being able to find a church that won't compromise. God spoke the words into my spirit "Come out of her" to get me out of the Pentecostal church, (I had many bad experiences there first - for 5 years - and was leaving it more and more in my heart when I heard the Lord prompt me to let go of it entirely) and then I tried a couple of IFB churches and had more bad experiences there and then I went to a regular Baptist church and they actually showed Passion of the Christ crucifixion scenes on Resurrection Sunday, which 1) that Catholic heretical film does not belong in church and 2) why did he show Christ on the Cross on the day we celebrate He is risen? He was all over the place with his sermon too like he was trying to 'work people up into getting saved', it was just terrible! I have written all of these pastors detailed letters of the things that I found upsetting about their churches after leaving and I have never heard back a word, except one pastor's wife tried to scold me for telling her that God led me out of Pentecostalism and how I now see it was the same bad experience I had back in my 20's when I was a New Ager. I told her it's opening up people to the New Age and Catholic mysticism and leading right into the One World Religion of Babylon. So no doubt she was upset with my letter, her husband is now high up in the Church of God hierachial system and they get worshipped by everyone and probably have never heard someone speak contrary to their 'work for God'. I sent her letter back unopened 'return to sender' because she needs to learn she is not my authority. Anyway, I am in the Word all of the time and God is growing me up through His Word (KJV) and by His Spirit so I feel blessed. God bless, Lori

Bible Believer said...

I am sorry you are facing the same thing with churches. Many readers here are out of the churches. I had a decent IFB I was in when I was newly saved, but it was a country church and is now closed down. Most are going apostate even among the fundamentalists and independents. I am not surprised the Baptist church showed Passion scenes, I would walk out too. I was visiting a SBC here JUST TO DO A BIBLE STUDY trying to find other Christians to fellowship with but had to leave when I realized their pastor was false and in total control of the studies, and they were so lacking in discernment they all happily lined up to go watch the Passion. I sent that pastor an email, with the link Poison in the Passion and told him how it was a Catholic movie, and he never responded. Many become salesmen trying to sell numbers and false easy believism "salvation" to get people to come forward to look good rather then true gospel appeals. I have seen this from screaming IFB pastors that used to visit my old IFB--I learned not to go on days we had visiting pastors. Yes I have told people about the one world religion of Babylon, and thyey have no listened. I have written letters, had discussions with them as I wrote here, and all sorts of things. Church of God is full blown into the ecumenical system. They were almost a whole other church 50 years ago. I am glad you are in the Word, Lori, and will pray for you. Please check out the articles too in the index about those without a church.