Tuesday, September 4, 2012

Chuck Smith, Aimee Semple McPherson and the Foursquare Church

Watch the video about Aimee Semple McPherson...What a pose above...isn't that a masonic one? The strange shield too is odd.

She was a proto-type of our many false TV preachers we have today, except her media was radio. This includes even divorce, out of wedlock fornication, bringing modern music into the church, odd mystical visions, an even stranger "disappearance" that seemed meant to hide an affair and other bad ties. Ignore the part where it seems the video will be in Spanish, it's not, it's narrated in English.

She was almost a modern day Kathyrn Khulman evangelist in the 1920s, who founded the foursquare church and her own radio station and "famous" constantly in the newspaper though later for scandals. Well back to her more later.....

I know we can't judge someone based on churches they have COME OUT of, given I have left two false ones, but has Chuck Smith ever warned anyone AGAINST the Foursquare church? One thing I have noticed doing research for this blog is seeing Foursquare churches pop up on the list of all those Harvest and other gatherings. Angelus Temple [today a modern day foursquare church] was the church FOUNDED by Aimee Semple McPherson who founded the Foursquare church. Angelus Temple has been invited to Greg Laurie's Harvest "crusades".

One odd thing is one can find these Foursquare that call themselves "Calvary Chapel", it's hard to know if they are just using the name "Calvary Chapel"  like this one? This doesn't mean they ARE Calvary Chapels but why use the name, seems it would only make things more confusing.

"Angelus Temple, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, a non-profit corporate institution, has now grown to include more than 1,834 fellowships in America, and over 29,973 fellowships worldwide. There are currently more than 3 and a half million members in 123 countries around the globe. At the end of the reporting year, there were 48,271 Foursquare employees. International Church of the Foursquare Gospel presently ranks as one of the three or four most recognized branches of Pentecostalism. Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel, had been raised in the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, although he states he never met Aimee Semple McPherson. 
"My mother sat under Aimee's ministry, even played in the band, and later on (after Aimee's controversial death) worked in the central offices there at Angeles Temple. However, to my knowledge, she never met Ms McPherson, and neither did my father…" - Chuck Smith Jr. [cite]
Here is Chuck Smith's history:

"Smith graduated from LIFE Bible College [FOURSQUARE INSTITUTION] and was ordained as a pastor for the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel. In the late '50s Smith was the campaign manager and worship director for healing evangelist Paul Cain. After struggling as a pastor and being frustrated by church growth and recruitment techniques, he left his denomination to pastor a non-denominational church plant in Corona, California and eventually moved to a church called Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, California in December 1965"
So did Smith ever denounce the Foursquare church?

One thing I found scary was realizing how ecumenical McPherson was. She was just like the later Kathyrn Khulman in praising Rome.

Remember this video?

Did you know Kathyrn Khulman was seen as the HEIR to Aimee McPherson and seen as her "Dazzling Successor" by at least one newspaper? [here is another]

"By 1970 she moved to Los Angeles conducting faith healing for thousands of people each day as an heir to Aimee Semple McPherson"

Both of these women are highly honored in the Pentecostal world beyond denominational barriers, this includes even one came before them, Mary Woodward Etter, who would draw tens of thousands in her crowds as well. Here is a picture of McPherson at work mesmerizing the crowds:

Well when it comes to Chuck Smith and Aimee Semple McPherson, on many beliefs it doesn't seem the apple fell too far away from the tree. Did you know that today's Foursquare church sees itself in OFFICIAL conversation with the Emergent movement?

The Foursquare denomination, under Hayford's leadership, is in "Missional Conversation" with the emerging church movement, claimed to be part of a "Church Multiplication" effort.[10] "Church Multiplication" also supports the house church movement through resources that support the expansion of "Foursquare Simple Church Networks."[1

But what I find scary, is how the QUOTE below in RED from MCPHERSON matches so much of Chuck Smith's words.

"McPherson said this in 1939: “Did you happen to be awake last night? I just couldn’t sleep – I had to listen to, at least, an hour or so of that broadcast from Rome. I thought it was so interesting, when the new Pope was being put in office. That was this morning. It was certainly impressive. I have never been brought up a Catholic – I mean, a Roman Catholic – we’re all Catholics, aren’t we? We’re Protestant Catholics, whether we’re from Methodist or Baptist or what."

Let's not forget this quote from Chuck Smith:


"In his 1993 book, Answers For Today, Smith says the following:
"Paul points out that some say, 'I'm of Paul,' while others say, 'I'm of Apollos.' He asked, 'Isn't that carnal?' But what's the difference between saying that or saying, 'I'm a Baptist,' 'I'm a Presbyterian,' 'I'm a Methodist,' 'I'm a Catholic'? I have found that the more spiritual a person becomes, the less denominational he is. We should realize that we're all part of the Body of Christ and that there aren't any real divisions in the Body. We're all one. What a glorious day when we discover that God loves the Baptists! -- And the Presbyterians, and the Methodists, and the Catholics. We're all His and we all belong to Him. We see the whole Body of Christ, and we begin to strive together rather than striving against one another" (p. 157). (Emphasis added.)"

One has to wonder did the Foursquare chuch influence Chuck Smith in his ecumenical outlook? After researching things, I do believe the Pentecostal church was started as a deception to begin with. Ever notice how pro-Catholic, the Pentecostal preachers are?  Sure there are a few exceptions that call out Rome as the harlot but they are rare.

Here is more from Aimee Semple McPherson, we can see why the later Kathyrn Khulman was so Catholic friendly.

McPherson is speaking about a Pope here and Catholic ceremonies...

"But I couldn’t help being impressed with that ceremony. Especially the part where they set him aside and put oil on his hands and anointed him. They gave him the communion. I said, “Well, my, from now on when I ordain my young people, I’d love to see their elders anoint their hands with oil, that they may go out and lay hands on others. I believe that many of the early Catholic traditions are handed down from apostolic days, don’t you, before the days of Martin Luther. Take the Lord’s Supper that they may go – give it to others. We do not agree that there’s just one mediator between God and man, and that’s the Pope. We don’t agree with that at all. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Mediator of all. But we cannot help but admire, the respect that is paid to the Lord Jesus. Certainly in this day we’re out to preach Christ. But to hear that coming over, and I thought, “My…….!” They described how the people cheered, and they said the nuns even took their handkerchiefs and waved and cheered and clapped as the cardinals went by, leading the Pope. I thought, “My, won’t it be wonderful when our High Priest, Jesus Christ, comes back again.” Oh, if we do our task! I’ll tell you, even you stiff-folks might bend and wave our handkerchiefs that day, when the Lord comes back. Amen?! Glory be to God!"
"I was so interested (in this radio program). I awakened the young lady at our house and I said, “Listen to this!” When Joanne came, it came to the part about the nuns even waving their hands and the people all cheering, I told of an experience of mine in Illinois where we were in a Foursquare church that had just been opened and the power was falling. Right next door to us was a convent. The sisters became so interested in the shouting and people praising the Lord, that they came over to see what it was all about. They had such sweet faces – in these black and white headgear. People had been falling under the power of God! Just going down under God’s power all around. Do you know, that God’s power struck them and they went down just the same way! Under the power of God! By and by, the Mother Superior came in to see what had happened to their daughters, and the power of God struck her. 
Why, we’re all the same! I mean, we all have a heart, we all have tears, we all have sins, we all need a Savior, we all need the blood, and every one of us can work for Jesus. Whether we go across the ocean or whether we stay at home, this is our task. Lord, make us soul-winners, every one of us.” [This Is My Task, A sermon by Aimee Semple McPherson, Given at Angelus Temple, in Los Angeles, California March 12, 1939, www.ksu.edu/history/courses].
 Lots of strange stuff with this church and this is where Chuck Smith spent the early adult years as a minister in. While I know some of the excesses of Pentecostalism are spoken against in Calvary Chapel, the shame of it all is Calvary Chapel actually helped Pentecostalism grow becoming a lighter version of it giving it more credibility. Does anyone know what Chuck Smith had to say about foursquare? This blog [not an endorsement]claims in Smith's autobiography "Chuck Smith, A Memoir of Grace, as told to Chuck Smith Jr." that in Chapter 6, he does have many criticisms.  Perhaps he does, need to check those out. When I get a copy of that book, I'll add on another section here.

Be careful of that blog, it seems to be one that focuses on defending Calvary Chapel, what is with all the weird Latin and praise of contemplatives like Merton? He also had this strange website that says "let Lonnie rest in peace" but then seems to be some very odd fictionalized account.

With Foursquare, besides it's churches showing up on invites to Harvest 'crusades", you can see some of its leaders like Jack Hayford who graduated from the same Foursquare college, Chuck Smith went to popping up in various places.

Jack Hayford even recently spoke at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, even if the subject is political, why would Chuck Smith invite the leader of a church he supposedly left and separated himself from to speak on ANYTHING? He is a Foursquare church religious leader [see picture below]

We know already there is a constant overlap with all these religious leaders. I didn't find Calvary Chapel involvement on this particular event but many of other ministries they work with appeared. This picture is to show that Jack Hayford is with the Foursquare church.

Here is a "Christian" travel organization that does tours to Israel that has Jack Hayford on the roster as well as a few Calvary Chapel ministers and churches. This Calvary Chapel links to His Channel, a radio station that features Calvary Chapel notables along with a show by Jack Hayford called Spirit Formed.  So overlap with Foursquare and it's leaders is happening.

That said, this seems to be more influences on Calvary Chapel from the get-go that were not good. While Calvary Chapel comes out against some of the excesses of their other Pentecostal brethren, we know with the TBN appearances, and other political and ecumenical involvements, there are more and more shared aims and goals among all these churches. The rotten roots of Pentecostalism, really if one reads the history, and I wrote about a lot of it on this article have made themselves known

Azusa Street, Pentecostalism and Calvary Chapel

What is one to think of a church that was founded on showmanship, and graft, and a divorced female leader who used fame and fortune to fool so many? How much of her teachings has Chuck Smith really departed from? The worse influence that seems to have stayed is the ecumenical one.

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


Marion said...

You know, BB...that whole "foursquare" gospel thing sounded so "masonic" to me...went digging...look what I found...

" As an Entered Apprentice you are a learner, a beginner in Speculative Masonry. You have taken the first steps in the mastery of our art. And it is because you have this rank that certain things are expected of you.

First, you must learn certain portions of the Degree, so as to prove your proficiency in open Lodge. But you are to learn these parts not merely to pass this test; you should master them so thoroughly that they will remain with you throughout life, because you will have need of them many times in the future.

Second, you must learn the laws, rules, and regulations; by which, an Entered Apprentice is governed.

As you stood in the northeast corner of the Lodge during your initiation, you were taught a certain lesson concerning a cornerstone. The meaning of that lesson should now be clear to you.

You are a cornerstone of the Craft. The day will probably come when, into your hands, will fall your share of the responsibilities of the Lodge. You are a cornerstone on which the fraternity is being erected.

It is our hope and expectation that you will prove a solid foundation, true and tried, set foursquare on which our great Fraternity may safely build."

BUT...the Word of God says...
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cor. 3:11)

Masonry...another "jesus", another "gospel", another "church"...woe unto them!

The above info about masonry was found here:


(information - not an endorsement)

Bible Believer said...

Hey Marion, I think it sounds masonic too.

Take a look at their new "logo" too.

Well the dove is there, and cross, but they don't miss the masonic "templar" crown..

Hey thanks for finding this quote! :0

"It is our hope and expectation that you will prove a solid foundation, true and tried, set foursquare on which our great Fraternity may safely build."

Yeah that says a lot.

I wondered why they named it foursquare too and thought it sounded like "ON THE SQUARE" masonic stuff.

Anonymous said...

I checked out the blog you mentioned. He is definitely out to lunch, but I did note one interesting thing. The book that just came out about Lonnie Frisbee in his own words supposedly given in various forms before his death in 1993.

Curiously the book is dedicated to Kathyrn Kuhlman. Well, maybe not so curiously........

Anyway, on Amazon one can read a portion of the book which is quite telling. It is Lonnie's account of his childhood. He was born with a physical disability to a 15 year old mother and an alcoholic and abusive womanizing father. The account of cruelty inflicted upon such a young child is horrifying. His bio father claimed he was not his child. And then his step father hated his bio father so much he rejected Lonnie and his siblings and did not even allow them to eat with the family.

The "freebie" account cuts off, but this guy was the product of a trainwreck and primed for the role he played. He claims to have come to Jesus as an 8 year old at a child evangelism puppet show.

It would appear that Frisbee was used and abused from the cradle. He was left in the care of some people at a young age and according to his account was sexually abused.

He apparently had no one to ever truly minister to him and discern that he needed help to heal from his emotional trauma. Instead he was introduced to kundalini through Kuhlman. Finally he had found a "niche" where he could exert power and influence and mistook this for God's power working through him.

Sadly the author of the book who says he was close with Frisbee hadn't a clue that Kuhlman was a curse on Frisbee and not a blessing.

Anonymous said...

Of course the first point that must be brought up in all of this is, there are no women pastors according to the Lord Jesus Christ. NONE.

And make no mistake, Amiee Semple McPherson took the role of a woman pastor. So right of the bat, the root is rebellious, heretical, and not based in Scripture.

So that point alone disqualifies Amiee Semple McPherson.

Notice in the first Amiee Semple McPherson video at 2:44, the cross in the crown symbol at the top of their banner. That's freemasonry.

I never listened to Lonnie Frisbee before, so I finally broke down and listened to the video you posted. There's really nothing there. I sense in my spirit a mix of something good and useable, and then just after I sense a check in my spirit, red flags. And it goes back and forth like that.

I believe that's what can be said about all these groups. The useable good, mixed with the bad and heretical.

I remember the Ephesians511 blog guy once saying that he saw this all as a mix, and now I understand what he meant, two spirits at work.

And of course they're all ecumenical. Rome loves the words of these people. Look how Amiee Semple McPherson basically did better advertising for Rome than Rome can even do. That's a false shepherd, but as I stated at the first, there are no women pastors anyway according to Jesus Christ.

Chuck Smith worked under Paul Cain? Yikes.

Anonymous said...

Chuck Smith certainly has left this system. People are able to change.

Anonymous said...


I have been reading, in addition to the Bible, Foxes Book of Martyrs. Lots of inspiring testimonies. Definately understood that right doctrine is important. Lived those beliefs, and many died for them. Then went and re-read some Corrie Ten Boom. Another inspiring lady who loved the Lord Jesus and who's faith held up under incredible persecution. Against pre trib rapture, saw it as a trap. But, sadly, did not seem to see the trap of Catholicism. Also associated with Billy Graham. Maybe did not discern there. I was disappointed to see that aspect of her writing.

I guess this is a little off topic, but just agreeing that there is a mix of godliness and discernment in people, and not seeing other things. Some are deceivers, others are saved but may hold some wrong opinions or listen to the wrong people in some matters. Probably none of us hold all the right opinions and see everything clearly, so thanks be to God for his grace where we don't get it. Someday we will see it all clearly, and someday we will get to see God face to face.

Anonymous said...

It seems that often when people "disconnect" from a false system the break is not clean. Such as Martin Luther who retained the pagan practice of infant baptism and other leftovers from Romanism that resulted in Lutheranism and then Calvinism/Reformed error.

Error is certainly nothing new. The Bible instructs us to be on guard and sadly mankind fails to do that and therefore leaven multiplies and spreads. This seems to be the case with Chuck Smith. He had some good teaching on the one hand but too many compromises on the other.

Too often the cancer of leaven is not totally eradicated when one makes a change. If one is not properly discipled upon rebirth or upon leaving a false system, the house is not protected against other errors.

I think what we see in Lonnie Frisbee is a young man who was used and abused and then exploited by those who should have known better. This sloppy, careless,seat of the pants approach to evangelism results in many trainwrecks. It seems that Lonnie Frisbee is not so much to blame as those who failed to mentor him and protect him from the wiles of Satan. What a sad commnetary on the Church.

When one reads the account of how Greg Laurie was supposedly born again by being struck down for mocking Frisbee, and how Frisbee displayed evidence of kundalini in other instances, one has to really question the validity of anything that came out of his "ministry".

Another point is that many times that Satan uses women to further his cause such as those mentioned in the article. He also used others to influence Bill Bright and Billy Graham early on. Then there are the false prophets we see today in Cindy Jacobs and others.
God has a plan for both men and women - sometimess the roles overlap and sometimes there are distinct boundaries. But anytime we see a woman in the pulpit or going off on her own to hold crusades or teach crowds it is a sign that things have gone awry.

The destruction of the actions of McPherson and Kuhlman has impacted generations after they were long gone from the scene. That Jezebel spirit is always at the ready to seize opportunities.

Those who totally discount the role of women in ministry err also. It calls for balance and wisdom.

Marion said...

Anonymous said:

"Chuck Smith certainly has left this system. People are able to change."

Where's the documentation?

Bible Believer said...

Yes that is a very strange blog.

What is the title of the book about Lonnie Frisbee in his own words?

I plan to check out Chapt 6 of that book. However noting that Foursquare is freely invited to places like Harvest and one of it's main leaders invited to Costa Mesa makes me think that is another non-split. That's like an Ex-Catholic inviting a priest to speak on politics at his church. How does that make any sense?

I get the feeling there was some kind of relationship with Lonnie and Kathyrn Khulman still remember that one video with all the "hand signals". I think he was a vulnerable person, Lonnie, though in the end he had his own free will, they exploited that. I didn't know he was abused but am not surprised to hear it. I think he could have been chosen to play that role too, perhaps even a victim of mind control of sorts. LSD definitely had a tie there, didn't it?

Bible Believer said...

I agree about NO women pastors.

One can see in all female headed churches they have gone off the rails. I know female pastors in Pentecostalism are plentiful.

So yes that is a false root from the start and applies to Kathyrn Khulman as well as herself and the modern day Paula Whites and the rest.

Yeah I saw the cross in the crown, on that banner, thanks for pointing it out. Yes many of these ministries were "marked" even then.
I've seen enough of Lonnie Frisbee in videos to see the speaking talent that drew people in but also feeling the unease as well, regarding discernment.

Satan always mixes truth with lies to draw people in. They all hold the ecumenical thing in common for a reason.

I don't know as much about Paul Cain...but what I do know isn't good.

Bible Believer said...

I think Martin Luther retained way too much of the baggage. So while some things were changed that were positive, just the keeping of sacraments and other leftoevers from Rome was a great error.

So yes it looks like Chuck Smith stuck to many of his old influences. I tend to see him as a knowing deceiver but he could be example of one influenced by the falsehoods of Pentecostalism, even if Calvary Chapel departed from it's worse excesses, it was a rotten root from the start.

I agree about the loose evangelism allowing for no discipleship. One sees the lowest common denominator stuff in the easy believism world which leaves the people open for endless errors especially when they decry those who try to go deeper and warn of error. Of course with so many false conversions there is no teaching via the Holy Spirit.

Per above, I tend to see Lonnie Frisbee as one who got sucked in, as more vulnerable and used. He made his choices when it came to the end of it all but it is a tragedy all together.

Yes I saw that strange conversion story about Greg Laurie and other strange stuff with Lonnie Frisbee that definitely spoke of "another spirit"
I agree that things have gone awry when these women seek after their own churches and more, and the power and prestige. One can see the fruits of McPherson and Khulman today in the evangelical especially Pentecostal churches. I do think women have a role in ministry just not as a pastor of a church. Thanks for your post.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps men like Chuck Smith are as the Bible describes "double-minded". They try to have it both ways. They have blind spots that block their vision and at some point, especially after people have pointed it out, it can be called "willful blindness". Then it goes beyond being a "victim" of bad teaching or a bad system and becomes a choice to choose error over truth and ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I guess in the end it will be up to God to judge the motives of these men, but their actions are there for all to evaluate according to the Bible. As you say, the mixture of truth and error is what causes people to swallow the error along with the truth. If someone wants to poison someone they make the concoction taste good.

It would seem to me that those who should have known better and exploited Lonnie Frisbee instead of seeing him in need of ministry and testing the spirits. There obviously was little or no discernment involved, just going with the flow. The emotions seem like they were a leftover from Pentecostalism. People can easily be manipulated through emotions.

That is why the Harvest crusades and other mass venues result in false conversions that are nothing more than a response to earthly stimuli rather than the Word of God. There can certainly be emotions in a conversion, but not those that are invoked by crowds and a herd mentality. That is not to say that there are some true conversions, but not the inflated numbers claimed. And any who ARE genuine are likely to turned over to a wolf.

There are still people getting saved through the true Gospel, but it is not through celebrity speakers drawing big crowds in stadiums.

Kayfabe said...

My first christian place of fellowship was a Foursquare church which is where I became born again. It was my first church family and I loved them and had real fellowship that I never got in Calvary. However upon becoming born again I realized that there were some things there at Foursquare that didn't line up with the bible, the mis use of tongues, women pastors, tithing for today etc. I freely asked the college pastors these question and he could never back it up with scripture.. many at my fellowship put Aimee on a pedastol but I never really gave her a second thought and just kinda put it out of my head that she was the founder. One year tho I went to a youth conference at Angelus Temple as a leader, it was in 2000 I think and it was for the weekend. Our first day there which was a Friday they had all of us sit in the theater like seating in the "sanctuary" and instead of one of the leaders preaching they beamed Aimee Simple McPherson's Hologram down and she preached a sermon. I was stunned and immediatley knew this worship of a woman and idolatry. It was at this point that I was done with Foursquare and I left shortly after. I think the hologram thing is going to be used as a tool of deception in these last days.

Bible Believer said...

I am glad God got you out of there, Kayfabe. yes even in false churches there can be good fellowship. That is what is so sad, seeing nice people under the sway of false pastors. I'm glad you asked questions and checked things out with scripture. I know there are probably others in that church who ignore McPherson's history, that is for sure. I am surprised they used a hologram, that sounds very pricey. I do think holograms will be used as deception especially as they advanced the technology. Was it an old news reel they had put into the hologram? She was around in the 20s so it had to be that. It is weird, they had to bring Aimee "back from the dead" so to speak instead of just having one of the preachers do a sermon!

Anonymous said...

I have not heard of Aimee Semple McPherson until I began a study to more closely examine Evidence for the Existence of God. The Lord does not ask us to simply believe, but provides Proof of Existence. The New Testament claims Jesus performed various miracles, then resurrected from the dead. The message I get from that is Jesus is stating to the doubter "I AM that I AM and have PROVEN it." Any idiot can get themselves crucified but how many resurrect, let alone raising others from the grave and curing leprosy? Then there is that scrap of Turin that no one can successfully replicate or find something similar buried elsewhere.

68 healings as the result of events at Lourdes France, as investigated by doctors of the Lourdes Medical Bureau, are “medically inexplicable.” Investigate further "faith healing....."

Aimee Semple McPherson is also known for her extensive "divine healing" work. Biographer Daniel Mark Epstein writes: No one has ever been credited by secular witnesses with anywhere near the numbers of faith healings attributed to McPherson. The healings present a monstrous obstacle to scientific historiography. If events transpired as newspapers, letters, and testimonials say they did, then Aimee Semple McPherson's healing ministry was miraculous. ...The documentation is overwhelming: very sick people came to Sister Aimee by the tens of thousands, blind, deaf, paralyzed. Many were healed some temporarily, some forever. She would point to heaven, to Christ the Great Healer and take no credit for the results.
(p111 ,185 Sister Aimee: The Life of Aimee Semple McPherson).

While McPherson demonstrates Proof of her Empowerment, people write:

"proto-type of our many false TV preachers " = Unlike them, McPherson's popularity remained high in her lifetime and continues to annoy many who attempt to caricature her as the typical charlatan.

"This includes even divorce," = McPherson regretted heavily that third marriage. But she was lonely and it brings up an interesting conversation still continuing in churches today--when the "ex" is still sitting on the curb, is it ok to remarry?

"out of wedlock fornication," = without real proof its all gossip. McPherson was well aware of the innuendo and declared "all she had time for was preaching Jesus." Decades later, a couple of old goats have emerged claiming a liaison with McPherson. Claims they or others did not make of them while she was still alive.

"stranger "disappearance" that seemed meant to hide an affair"==hundreds of reporters, 36,000 or so pages of the court transcripts, $500,000 spent ( around 6.4 million in 2012 dollars) and no one could prove Aimee Semple McPherson's kidnapping story false.

Idolatry of a person is a two sided coin. One side of a US coin depicts the person as god, Roman, Grecian, magnificent. The other side reminds us of some contribution they have made, a reminder perhaps which serves as a practical example of what must be striven for. If we flip the coin around again and take a closer look, it states "In God We Trust."

McPherson worked to establish an ecumenical reality of the various fundamentalist, evangelical and pentecostal churches co-operating on various projects "It's not the dipper we drink from, but it's the water we drink that counts," she emphasized.

While other agencies moved at the speed of government, she established a Commissary, which fed and otherwise assisted as many as 1.5 million people, many of them during the Great Depression.

Sean said...

[16] "The children shall be baptised first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. After this, the men will be baptised. Finally, the women" (The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome 21.4-5).

Anonymous said...

Suppose you called Jesus, the Son of David. If you realized he was predicted to be the Son of David, would it be wrong to say he had as many wives as King Solomon. Would it then ve wrong to say, that he had more then one virgins to wife. If not would it be right to ssy the wife which.was a daughter if Pharoah worshipped idols so was separated from his Harem. What is wrong with Catholicism?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

" What is wrong with Catholicism? "

Are Christians today (unbeknownst to them) now walking the wide road Jesus warned about? How many are willing to ask the Upper Room question, "Is it me?"

One of the present goals of the Vatican: To bring the rebellious Reformer children (Protestants) back "home", that all is forgiven ... which means, come back to their fold, the Catholic church because for the Vatican, there is no other genuine Christian church other than theirs. This is the same church today as it was through the past centuries, the same church that burned at the stake, tortured or publicly humiliated all those who would not bend their knee not to Chris, but to the Pope. Jesus called the Jewish leaders (Pharisees) "white washed tombs full of dead man's bones." They looked the part, sounded genuine, spoke with authority but they did not know Christ, who is God. They claimed to know God, that they were the keepers of the oracles of God (that part was true) but when God showed up in the flesh, they knew him not and, rather than learn from Him, they later conspired to have him killed.

Sound familiar?

Might want to watch this video about Rome's goal for the rebellious Protestants she now calls her wayward children >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqSOACIEsGc&index=2&list=FLYOaF886lpQ8f9XBry7d-8Q

As scripture says: There’s nothing new under the sun.

So, what is wrong with Catholicism? According to holy scripture:

- teaching that Mary is the Co-Mediatrix (That is, along with Jesus, she is the mediator of all graces). Grace = spiritual enablement
2 Cor 12:9
But he (Christ) said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
- Veneration (which in truth, can easily can become worship) of Mary
Rev 19:10
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him (an angel), but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.”

- Transubstantiation (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, the change of substance by which the bread and the wine offered in the sacrifice of the sacrament of the Eucharist during the Mass, become, in reality, the actual Body and Blood of Jesus. Jesus did say "I am the bread" and he said "I am the wine" but he also said "I am the door" (John 10:9)

“I am the door” … think about that for a moment

Cathy said...

I was interested in this because I downloaded and am reading Leaves of Healing, which you can get for free and I did some research on John Alexander Dowie, and even a short biography on a site called God's Generals is very enlightening. It is interesting that his downfalls always came when getting away from simplicity and dabling in politics, building "temples" and a City called Zion. The article mentions that "spiritual separation from the will of God."

I believe deeply that all of these people started out in the same manner as a person like George Mueller and they did the genuine work of God. George Mueller does not appear on the God's Generals' website, which I find interesting. George Mueller is the only one never built some denomination. His desire was to show the faithfulness of the Living God for all and he did this through orphanages in Bristol. Yes, he preached in many places, but never built an earthly kingdom where he was showcased. He also never did fundraising. Everything came through prayer. It's really something to think about that through Christian celebrities (including folks like Piper and MacArthur) will talk about Mueller, it is clear they just don't get it. Mueller wrote his autobiography not to point attention to himself, but in diary form graphically shows the faithfulness of the Living God, and throughout he stresses that there is nothing special about him. It's incredible in its simplicity.

I don't think we have a right to condemn these people but we learn a lot from their lives. Falling into spiritual pride a huge problem. All of God's Generals succumbed to this problem, it seems and fell into apostasy. Once a person starts building an organization, dabbling in politics, writing book after book, etc., where does one have the time to spend in God's Word and spend time with God?

I think that "Elmer Gantry" portrayed this all very, very well.