Monday, July 30, 2012

Eschatological Details and The Discerning the World website

From Discerning the World website, notice the mention of Galatians 4:

 The above is from the DTW website. She warns against this website for being against Pre-Trib.

She is right I am vehemently anti-Pre Trib as in I see it setting up Christians for massive deception. {I am not sure if Deb wrote that exact line or just posted it}
With the Discerning the World website, I have many unanswered questions and dare I say disappointments? regarding that website.. I have been noticing some readers and commenters on here going over there, so it's time to say something.  I went over there around 2 years ago and was quite happy, in doing so thinking I would find like-minded people only to find out within days, I was being pressured to leave for being non-Pre-Trib and to holding to the KJV Bible and warning about false Bible versions. I departed ways and will not be posting over there.  If anyone wants to read my conversations over there, they are under the biblebeliever name. They were very against anyone questioning dispensationalism to the extreme, it went far beyond Christians just disagreeing over a matter.

Remember what I posted yesterday on the forums, well it applies to many of the websites too and those who have 'controllers" who sway their audience a certain way. One can't always say for sure,what is happening with each and every website, but there are certain red flags I learned to watch out for.  One technique you will see will be intense teamwork. In other words when you see the 100% defenses and overcompensation and they say other commenters and posters can do no wrong, there is a reason for it. I have seen this done in different places from the Constance Cumbey blog to other false websites and other places where the moderators or blog owners always seem to have sychophants they back up with no question. In other words, preference is given to other posters who are always in 100% agreement. My experiences with one poster calling themselves,  "Burning Lamp" definitely seemed to fulfill #4 Teamwork, as one of the techniques described warning about those who manipulate on websites. One will even find supposedly strong "Christians" standing against false teachers giving a place to someone who is essentially neo-evangelical in many stances.

 I have commenters on my own blog who are pre-trib and disagree with me. If they are civil, I have no problem with them expressing their opinions, but within days of my posting on DTW there was immediate anger over me questioning the Pre-Trib position. I do not consider these things salvation issues, it took time for me even as a Christian to learn and study these matters. This continues to this day. I am in the midst of unloading years worth of dispensationalism lingo and teachings. Even realizing the majority of fundamentalist baptists have it wrong, has me studying God's Word, to test what I have been taught.
This is a big picture comment, I want all my readers to ask themselves why 90% of the false evangelical teachers out there all hold to Pre-Trib without reservation? Why is there not more variation out there? Given what I have exposed on this blog about Dominionism, Christian Zionism and the other NWO set-ups, why don't some see how false Pre-Trib teachings and dispensationalism have tied into all of them?  If one studies even Protestantism of hundreds of years ago, the views were far more wide ranging then the emphasis, on Hal Lindsey inspired Bible prophecy?  Why do we get so much more of the same from so many varying circles?

  The fact that this website tried to insuinate I was Roman Catholic by holding to a "post-trib" position, is absurd. There are 60 plus articles warning against the Catholic church on this blog. I renounce the Roman Catholic church and consider it the satanic harlot warned of in Revelation. We are to warn Catholics and preach the gospel to them, same as I was, before I got out of there. That said,  Deborah may have done me a favor for me to see this little quip, because I was questioning the wisdom of even using post-trib to describe myself because I do reject there being a millennial kingdom on earth.  If one is a non-dispensationalist they are not going to go with the seven dispensationalist periods. If you believe there will be a millennial kingdom, please research and examine things. I do truly believe more and more the millennnialism is being used to help set up things for the Antichrist kingdom [culmination of such] as I even have forwarded my belief, regarding the Pope being the Antichrist.

Is The Pope The Antichrist?

I am of the mind more and more that everything that points away from the Pope and Rome, is playing a "look over here" game instead.

I know eschatology can get complex so I am not going to be a person who deems someone unsaved for disagreeing with me on these issues. However when I see certain beliefs being advanced that include other false teachings, that is when I get worried about a website. I do find websites suspect however who are so overly Pre-Trib while ironically in this case seeming to warn about endless Pre-Trib teachers that the anger is instant upon having a Christian show up with another viewpoint.

I don't believe in a millennial kingdom, I realized I have mistakenly used post-trib to describe myself which, I realize technically that is not true. Given I reject millenialism in general:

Do You Believe in The Millennial Kingdom? [I don't]

Hal Lindsey, Late Great Planet Earth, the Millennial Kingdom, and the Rapture

An Insane Teaching: Animal Sacrifices Will Be Reinstituted?

Leaving the Pre-Trib Position Behind

With the post-trib definition,:

"This doctrine holds that there is a resurrection-rapture of living believers in Jesus Christ at the end of the age (or the "End time"). Post-tribulationists believe that Christians will remain on the Earth through the three and a half year great tribulation period. This period starts at the Abomination of Desolation and ends at the Battle of Armageddon. They will be gathered by the angels to meet Christ in the air (raptured) at Christ's second coming immediately after the great tribulation just before the battle of Armageddon and then return with Him as Christ descends to the Earth, to usher in the Millennium (World to Come) on earth. This is usually understood as being in line with historic premillennialism."

I definitely do not agree with much of this, notice how they have Jesus Christ coming back twice? The Millennial kingdom stuff, is what I reject so obviously given I reject millennialism, even defining myself as "post-trib" seems to be with major difficulties.

What I don't get is how someone can claim post-trib is Catholic [with the millennial kingdom teachings and dispensationalist teachings involved I can see that reasoning] and not see the Catholic roots of the Pre-Trib position.? Darby and Scofield both were false. Others have done good research on Darby which I do not need to retrace the steps of. Even realizing the Jesuit influences of Darby, it is absurd for someone to claim that post-trib is ROMAN CATHOLIC while not seeing for themselves that this would apply to the Pre-Trib position as well
I am realizing even how much of the language is "OWNED", ie PRETERISM is wrong TOO and the majority of amillennials in the liturgical churches fulfill this bible verse:

2 Peter 3:53 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

"Amillennialism" has become the cry of the false liturgicals, who deny all prophecy rejecting what is happening in the world now, Matt 24, endless other Bible passages, or even what the Inquisitions meant when it comes to Bible Prophecy, while they still claim to hold to the Second Coming. I suppose some could technically apply this to those who reject a millennial kingdom but even there, that does not give a full picture. Most of the churches who have labeled themselves as amillenial have fallen away from God's Word sticking to their own false traditions.

Remember how I have talked about how the truth falls through the middle? Well apply it to the eschatological lingo as well. Who came up with the labels to begin with? hmmmmm

Back to the Discerning the World Website, things got very strange for me over there. As my readers know I am not KJV Only in that those like Ruckman make many false claims such as the bible being "new inspiriation",  but I believe that the KJV is the  non-corrupted Bible in the English language. God promised to preserve His Word and did. I had one very strange run-in on the DTW board, when I made my views about the KJV BIble and false Bible versions known.
This was not welcomed either:

What a flippant view of the Bible! Why would anyone flip a coin between bibles? The defenses of the NKJV and other false Bibles were astounding. I found myself asking, how could these people discern false teachers when they could not even discern God's Word properly? I haven't written on these matters, there is only so much time, but when I was a new Christian, I was directed, I believe by God, and I just came out of the RCC knowing very little, to buy a KJV and nothing else. I had contact with other Bibles and they all read wrong, and at that point I studied Bible versions and learned how things were adulterated and even in the case of false Bibles such as the NIV, verses were taken out. I had years worth of reading Catholic bibles, in Catholic school, and elsewhere, I could see the difference. The Holy Spirit warned and taught me of this.

With Bible versions, I can understand a new Christian who is still on the milk not realizing the difference, praying they will listen to the Holy Spirit, but what of people who have been out there for years? What of a "discernment" ministry?. Understanding even which Bible holds God's Word and hasn't been corrupted is one of the basics. Yes that was a major disappointment.

Around the time of this discussion, I got away from that website and stopped posting as a commenter.  I probably would have been banned anyhow with time.

Later I would have a discussion with Deborah the person who runs Discerning the World on my blog.
It did not go well as you can see here: [Scroll down to the comments]
I even asked in these coments:
"Why would someone being non-Pre Trib upset you so? I know for a fact some of my responders here still are Pre-Trib, some even disagree with me about a future Pope being the Antichrist, etc. I do not consider these salvation issues or something to silence someone over. You seemed so upset over my non-Pre Trib beliefs even when I wrote that I had recently studied and come to different conclusions."
One can find valuable information in all sorts of places and this includes the DTW website, who has a list of many false teachers, however be discerning if you over there. I am not perfect nor do I expect perfection of other human beings but it when it comes to some discernment websites out there, with this one, there was many unanswered questions. I do believe there are many false discernment websites.  Many will give you pieces of the truth, and even LOTS of truth and endless lists of false teachers to the point you wonder how they have time to expose them all, while introducing falsehoods. If DTW is a sincere website, then they have departed seriously from God's truth even regarding His Word, that is a great blind spot. If they are not sincere, well, the focus on the Pre-Trib Rapture with little questioning allowed to the extreme and avid dismissal of the KJV Bible would make sense.


Anonymous said...

Wow, well I guess I don't fit in with either website.

I am pre-trib and I believe in the millennium. So that gets me strikes here. But I'm also very strongly KJV, so that gets me strikes over there.

I can't understand how anyone could say that all Bible "versions" are equivalent. They don't even say the same message sometimes, let alone not using the same words.

But I am also very strongly dispensationalist. And please understand, pulling the Darby card is a miss on your part. Darby wasn't a jesuit, and he certainly wasn't the only person that believed in the pre-trib rapture, as there were many before him as well, and it can be said that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 makes the pre-trib rapture clear anyway.

So when I see someone pull the Darby card, I see that they are actually falling into catholic deceptions, unknowingly. You rightly admit that the deception is deep, right? So consider at least the possibility that you were deceived on this one.

The catholics HATE the rapture doctrine. They hate it, hate it, they attack me over it every day. Ask any devoted catholic. Now if they wanted everyone believing it, why would they attack it so strongly? And the calvinists hate it too, and the mainline protestants hate it too. So it is not the work of jesuits.

The deception is deep, and just because someone that is on the wrong side might promote a certain doctrine, doesn't make that doctrine wrong. Poison has to be 96% food in order to get it eaten. They have to say a lot of right things.

As a strong dispensationalist, I'm not hoodwinked by just anyone that talks about the pre-trib rapture, even though I do strongly believe in it. The question I go to with them always is, is John 3:16 the Gospel?

If they can't just answer yes, that Jesus Christ is God and died for our sins and rose again, and we go to heaven by believing in Jesus, then I don't trust them on that basis.

So I don't get suckered in by someone just talking about the rapture.

Anonymous said...

Apply sand box theology: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words they never hurt me. And, I'm rubber you're glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
No worries bb, some people just like to instigate.

Bible Believer said...

First Anon

While we disagree about the Rapture, I am glad you examined the teachers, that is good.

Yes I know Catholics really hate the Rapture. So you are correct. But the truth could even here fall through the middle here. Just keep praying and examining. John 3:16 sums up the gospel. I do not think believing in the Rapture or NOT believing in it obviously cancels out someone's salvation.

Second anon, I suppose that is the sort of response I expected. That's alright goes with the script. No true discussion or response per usual.

Specify said...

(What a weird and pathetic comment left by anon#2... Really?? And that's supposed to mean exactly -- what?? VERY sad...)

Hank said...

My son has been pointing some things out to me and I am leaning toward post trib at this point.
I was never a hardcore pretribber anyway because it seemed to me that the close we get the clearer it will be.

The one thing that REALLY bugs me about most pretribbers is that they teach that Christians will be saved from the WRATH of God.
They will be like Noah saved from the flood.

Now even if pretrib is correct, and we do not go through the Tribulation period it could get really really rough if Foxe's Book of Martyrs is not a lie.
I fear for Christians who will not be prepared to see their children skinned alive in front of them... before they themselves suffer the same fate.
The churches that teach End Time Prophesy the most are preparing their sheep the least for the End Times.

Bornagain Soldier said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Thanks for pointing that out. I was posting over there. The little monster faces that appear with each post were creeping me out, though. You'd have a mouth x'd out, an eye x'd out. . .
I was brought up pre-trib, but in reading the Bible for myself I have been praying about it and considering that that may not be the case. You have a good point out false teachers are being pre-trib. That in inself is suspect.

Bible Believer said...


I expected that. That is the response of the non-sincere, deflect, insults, etc. No reasonable discussions. Thanks however for questioning it too.

Bible Believer said...

Hi Hank,

Welcome to the blog. I guess I lean towards what some would call "post trib" but in this article, I wanted to make clear I reject dispensationalist Post Trib beliefs. I may have run out of labels to describe myself, LOL stick with the Bible. I never was hardcore pretrib, and probably technically for years could have been placed in the "Prewrath" camp. As for "Christians" being saved from wrath, what about all the Christians yes, who died in the Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Rome has oppressed and killed for CENTURIES. How do they wipe that all away? What about the people dying NOW for the Christian faith? I do believe there is a culmination point with prophecy, ie things will wax worse, we see the beast world system and power growing but how much of the *FUTURE* TRIB stuff, hid Rome's role in the oppressing of Christians? So few are prepared, we see people selling out even to not lose a little popularity, look at all these people who have given in to the false teachers, well what about when lives and the rest are hanging in the balance. I pray God gives me strength should that day come for me in my lifetime. You are right the ones who teach the most end times prophecy are preparing their people for the least.
Right now Pre-Trib is actually helping the "Christians" especially in America or the West think they will escape all tribulation and trouble. They are being set up for disaster. Most of them are joined with the world system, just look at LaHaye and pals and their involvement in the political beast system.

Bible Believer said...

I wouldnt blame them for the little monster faces, those come with that type of website and format, I see them all over, even on decent websites but you wonder why they designed them that way, and they got the little eyeballs xed aout and mouths. Not sure how much choice they have. Of course in my case, I needed a "free" website and got stuck with Google. So I won't judge over a matter like that but yeah when I see those graphics they bug me.

Yeah to me it is a MAJOR INCONSISTENCY, to have a list of dozens of teachers you say are false and then not ask the obvious, "HEY 99% of these guys, are PRETRIB, maybe I should rethink that one?" My question is why haven't they? I actually notice with sincere Christians, we want to know the truth, and are open to new information but the other types, its always their way or the highway, no questions allowed, no biblical investigation allowed.

You know when I did the rebuilding the temple articles, and Christian Zionism, I realized how much The Pre-Trib stuff kept that whole train running.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks for pointing out that Darby change to that bible verse.

This website, has detailed lots of suspect Darby verses. When I saw the ones referring to jesus as the "coming One" I knew Darby was a false teacher.

I would like to know too who believed in the pre-trib rapture before Darby. Even if one examines the majority of Protestant or early evangelical churches, it just isn't there. Even the Adventists and "Great Disappointment" types came after the man has spread his teachings.

I am interested in any new information too that can be provided.

Anonymous said...

Oops! I put my post about the rapture on the wrong comment/article.

Sorry about that BB. You can delete that comment from the other thread.

So let me try to reproduce it here:

To prove that the pre-trib rapture was taught by many before Darby, see this site:

That webpage guy got it from a Baptist pastor's teaching.

There were people in the 1500's and after, teaching the rapture.

Now you might disagree with the rapture doctrine, but don't keep saying this silliness that the rapture was "invented" by Darby or Margaret McDonald. They might have made it more public, but they sure didn't invent it.

Notice that the doctrine is attacked by attacking Darby. That doesn't validate or invalidate the doctrine.

The Word of God does.

Anonymous said...

By the way, you can't go by what was in "protestant churches", then or now. They are daughters of Rome, so why would they teach the rapture? They hated the doctrine then and now.

mijadedios said...

I would encourage you, Bible Believer, to not loose any sleep over the slings and arrows of DTW. There are issues there that will be revealed in time, that's all I can say on that matter. Regarding Pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, etc. I am not very well versed in all the great theologians of the past. I've never read Darby. I was taught pre-trib theology while at CC. More specifically I was never taught it as a form of doctrine. Many of the CC pastors say they are Pre-trib and believe it and only use a few verses when tested by it, I wonder if they know what they're preaching. Most of what I learned was from my itching ears that lead me to Prophecy Conferences and teachers promoted by CC, who turn out to be members of Tim LaHaye's Pre-Trib Research Center (see Why they Do not Warn Part 1 on N4TM)! So as the red neck comedians say, "There's your sign." Just prior to my leaving CC I had read through Daniel. I highly recommend reading the Word of God for your theology (note to all readers). I also began proof reading all the verses that CC and extra biblical teachers were quoting as the "go to" texts for Pre-trib. I read something else entirely. I prayed, asked the Holy Spirit for wisdom and knowledge in what I was reading and I was not able to come to the same conclusion as the CC teachers I had "grown" up with. Now, because I'm not 100% convinced of a pre-trib rapture does not make me any other label people want to smack on me. I'm not Replacement Theology (which someone has accused me of) I'm not denying that Christ Jesus is going to Return and Rule and Reign. What I'm saying is I'm not 100% convinced in pre-trib dispensationalism (period). End of Sentence. The Lord continues to minister through His Holy Spirit and I remain willing and teachable. There are others who are dogmatic on a "non-salvation" issue and want to curse those who are not in their designated camp--to those people I say -whatever, I can't go there, it's a revolving door to me. I just want the TRUTH. If the truth is that there is a Pre-trib rapture, I guess we'll find out one day, I don't see it in scripture. If we go through trials and tribulations and suffer persecution as the bible says all Christians will, I will still Praise My GOD! It really can be that simple. But for people who take orders and advertise for their friends in the network I guess it's more complicated.

Anonymous said...

Historical note

Critics say that the idea of dispensationalism is something that Darby made up himself ("concocted in complete contradiction to all main Christian traditions", said James Barr), but Darby believed that the idea had been given to him by God.

Dispensationalism wasn't a brand new doctrine anyway; Joachim of Fiore had put a similar idea forward in the 12th century CE. Source:
Google: Joachim of Fiore

Julia said...

Hi All:

I encourage all my dispensationalist brothers and sisters to remove your "dispensational glasses," for a moment, and ask the Lord to show you, if perchance there is ANY way in which you may have been unknowingly deceived. These glasses filter and frame your understanding of what you read. I care not (at this time) to get into the discussion of the who, what, when, where and why of that issue, except to say this. Dispensationalism is a man-made system for studying the Word of God - it is not inspired, nor is it infallible. It was introduced to our thinking process by man, who is fallible, and subject to all manner or error, deception and temptations. If you desire the truth; lay those glasses aside, and do an honest search of these few verses below.

I myself had been a pre-tribber. That's how it is - you get saved and then "taught" about the rapture. However, as I would read myself, I found myself wondering about some things. I don't profess to have all the answers or understand all things, but as I "search the Scriptures" asking God to teach me truth; it's coming together slowly. Let me just share some of my questions, and what I'm seeing. This is not an exhaustive look - just a sampling.

For instance; how many resurrections are there? The Bible says 2 - Jesus said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29-30)

Who will participate in each resurrection? We read in Rev. 20 (I suggest you look at the whole chapter)

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (verses 4-5)

Julia said...

Part 2

notice: that in this resurrection are those who were martyred during the tribulation

Anonymous mentioned 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - let's look at that.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

In light of the verses from Rev. 20 above, the verses from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 - consider this idea - which are alive and remain (who have lived through that tribulation) shall be caught up together with the dead in Christ - which dead in Christ? All - which clearly includes the tribulation martyrs; this is referring to the 1st resurrection - of the righteous - ALL the righteous, including "we who are alive and remain" and "will be changed" and "caught up together with them in the clouds."

Consider also 1 Corinthians 15:52-53
"Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This passage states that the trumpet that will sound in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will be the "last trump."

IF there is a pre-trib rapture - would that not have to occur at the FIRST trump?

Take a look at Revelation. There are 7 trumpets recorded there. They start blowing in chapter 8:6. The 7th trumpet is blown in Rev. 11:15. This is the "last" trump - there are no more.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (verse18)

Sounds to me like the 1st resurrection of the righteous and the gathering together of those who are alive and remain and are changed in the twinkling of an eye, caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air, and ever be with Him.

And notice - there is A LOT going on between the blowing of the 1st trumpet and the 7th - when the Lord THEN rescues His own!

I am still searching out the milennium. Yes, there will be one - it is revealed in Revelation chapter 20. Do I understand everything about that, and exactly how that is all going to come together? No, and that's OK - I have a very patient Teacher. But I WILL NOT look to man to explain it to me. God is able!

BTW - I promise you, that if you leave those "dispensational glasses" off, you will see MANY things more clearly. I hope you have found this helpful.

Anonymous said...

Julia makes the classic error of assuming that, just because she sees the word "trump", then it must be one of the trumps found in another place. Which of course, is a false assumption of her own construct.

I'll stick with the clear, literal interpretation of the Scriptures. If I'm told that I will meet the Lord in the air, and not be subject to wrath, then I will meet the Lord in the air and not be subject to wrath.

Bornagain Soldier said...
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Bornagain Soldier said...
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Bornagain Soldier said...
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Anonymous said...

Throughout history, BC and AD, those that were saved by grace have been slaughtered and murdered for their faith. This is not God’s wrath. [1 Thess 5:9] It is the vicious hatred of the unrighteous toward the godly, beginning with Cain and Abel and culminating in the Great Tribulation under the Antichrist. The Lord’s fierce wrath and fury are reserved for the wicked that hate and reject Him.

I believe in the Holy Scriptures and the prophecies contained therein. This includes the literal, future fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy regarding the Seventieth “Week”, the last of seventy x seven years decreed for Daniel’s people and the holy city. Sixty-nine x seven of which were fulfilled before the Messiah was cut off, i.e. crucified. One final 7-year period remains to be completed. [Dan 9:24-27]

This entire span of 7 years is erroneously dubbed “the Tribulation” by dispensational pre-tribulationists. This is a serious error that leads to confusion in understanding the end-times.

God’s Word gives us many details about the structure of the events that will occur during this time including: The Four Horsemen/Seven Seals, Seven Trumpets/Three Woes, Seven Bowls and Armageddon. [Revelation]

The Great Tribulation is NOT the whole 70th 7-year period; rather it is an event contained within it, and can be understood to be the Fifth Seal event. [Rev 6:9] It is specifically the world-wide, intense and deadly persecution of Christians by the Antichrist, resulting in innumerable martyrs that will not deny the name of Jesus Christ, and will refuse to take the mark of the beast. [Matt 24:9-10; Rev 13:1-18]

The Great Tribulation begins at the middle of the 7-year period when the Antichrist reveals himself [Matthew 24:15,21,22; Rev 13:5], and extends for an unknown duration, but not longer than 42 months, until the Lord cuts off the persecution with His promised return, coming “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”. [Matt 24:29-31]

It is precisely at this point in history when the dead in Christ will be raised first, and then those who remain alive will be caught up together with them (i.e. the “Rapture”). [1Thess 4:13-5:11]

Only after this occurs will the “Day of the Lord” begin [2 Thess 2:1-4]. Then God will pour out His fierce wrath on the rebellious and wicked earth-dwellers via the Trumpet and Bowl judgments, and Armageddon. [Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation etc.]
“Even so, come Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.” [Rev 22:20-21]

Deborah (Discenring the World) said...


You are clearly a work of something or another...

Let me lay it out for you in point for so that you get it.

1) I am pre-trib nothing else. This will not change, no matter what nonsense lies you try to spin to the public.
2) I do NOT agree that all translation are equivalent - no where have I ever said this. I state in my quote that you have on your site quite clearly what is ok to read if you can't read the KJV. And I was joking about flipping the coing G4! But of course you are looking for anything to nail me on. I am against people saying that you HAVE TO READ THE KJV TO BE SAVED. Get it? You fail to understand that it is the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth. Something you miss completely.
3) You say "I departed ways and will not be posting over there." Shame G4, if I recall you were the one who said to me FIRST that it's clear we have a 'different spirit' and it is something I have questioned you one multiple times, but you refuse to answer. So don't act all heartbroken, ok? You wanted to leave. Just because I would not listen to you and follow your lead, now you get all upset. You've got your own blog, which I do not visited at all, ever, unless someone emails me like now to tell me that you are attacking me AGAIN!
4) You said, "Intense teamwork, In other words when you see the 100% defenses and overcompensation and they say other commenters and posters can do no wrong, there is a reason for it" You got to be kidding? So no one is allowed to say anything against you and if it appears to impressive then there must be some conspiracy going on. Are you ok? When last did you take your temperature? *laugh*
5) You say, "I have commenters on my own blog who are pre-trib and disagree with me". I doubt that, because you were the first one to tell me on my site that WE OPERATE UNDER DIFFERENT SPIRITS. You said that G4, not me. Ok? Comprende?
6) You say you reject the RCC but it's clear you don't understand biblical end time theology and acually believe in RCC end time theology. Ammillenialism is what the RCC believe.
7) Burning Lamp a neo-evangelical? Oh that is the funniest statement I've heard all week. No G4, you could not spot a genuine Christian if one jumped out and bit you on the nose.
8) I do not follow Hal Lindsey or any other teacher like this. Get your facts straight.
9) I see you link to websites that are sprouting anti-Israeli propaganda.
10) That is all I have to say, I see you are burying a hole for you yourself nicely with the stuff you write about, carry on :)

Your concern for those following the Blessed Hope brings tears to my eyes *not*, you say; "I see it setting up Christians for massive deception" Nonsense. In fact the reverse is true, when Jesus comes as promised to take His Bride home those who come knocking at His door asking to be let in, and He says; "no", will be devestated and there is a good possiblity their hearts will be heardened with hate - and they will join the massive gentile army that marches to attack Jerusalem.

Bible Believer said...


"1) I am pre-trib nothing else. This will not change, no matter what nonsense lies you try to spin to the public."

Yes you have made this clear. I always worry about those who do not have the attitude of seeking for truth, who have their minds made up and refuse to examine their positions on anything. Where does the iron sharpen iron thing come if one has an attitude like this?

"2) I do NOT agree that all translation are equivalent - no where have I ever said this. I state in my quote that you have on your site quite clearly what is ok to read if you can't read the KJV. And I was joking about flipping the coing G4!"

You said and I quote "I don't read the KJV". Why? Also that was then followed by a long list of different Bibles that you Do read. Sure you may reject more extreme Bibles like the Message or a Jehovah Witness Bible but I still can't figure out how someone with a website full of research all over the place missed the Hort and Westcott matter when it came to scripture. Can you explain that one to me?

I was on your site just a few days, and the intense anger, [which one can see here too] was livid even over me being a KJV reader, as if you never had encountered seeing one before.

I NEVER wrote that one needed to read a KJV to be saved. I have written on my own blog that people are born again even reading corrupted Bibles but I hope with the leading of the Holy Spirit they would come into knowledge of this.

All I know is the Holy Spirit has led most of my like-minded brethern to be warned about corrupted Bibles like the NIV, etc[which you listed among those you have read, and I wonder, in your case, WHAT HAPPENED?

You are a not a new Christian on milk or a humble person who simply doesn't have access to this information.

The different spirit wasn't over the KJV thing, it was the entire picture. It was the techniques I saw being done on your board that fulfilled the worse of Christian message boards I've seen before, anger, use of sychophancy teamwork, and always a defense of neo-evangelical positions even if the veneer attempts to appear to be something else. I've been to that rodeo multiple times before. It was the odd confluence of warning about multiple Pre-Trib and Christian Zionist-Dominionist teachers while on the back end holding to most of their views. [Rapture, corrupt bible versions etc]

Bible Believer said...

" So don't act all heartbroken, ok? You wanted to leave. Just because I would not listen to you and follow your lead, now you get all upset."

I left of my own accord.

What do I need with another website, that is the same as the majority of Christian message boards?

My hope is that no newer Christians come to your website, or even other bible believers who will face the ire or the gang-up techniques.

"4) You said, "Intense teamwork, In other words when you see the 100% defenses and overcompensation and they say other commenters and posters can do no wrong, there is a reason for it" You got to be kidding? So no one is allowed to say anything against you and if it appears to impressive then there must be some conspiracy going on. Are you ok? When last did you take your temperature? *laugh*"

How dumb do you think I am? I know when people are playing games and manipulating. I am not surprised the HA HA HA it must be a conspiracy line is now coming up. The script is always adhered to isn't it? I found it interesting how your website was full of those who defended each and everyone of your positions, with immediate anger and seeking to silence bible Christians who showed up. It was just like being on Constance Cumbey's blog with the army of defenders coming to run on.

I can tell the differences between HONEST DISAGREEMENT, and not so honest disagreement, you see. The message boards taught me that, if nothing else.

"6) You say you reject the RCC but it's clear you don't understand biblical end time theology and acually believe in RCC end time theology. Ammillenialism is what the RCC believe."

How many times do I write on this blog, that they always set up two conflicting positions and sometimes three or four so the truth falls through the middle? It's like you are stuck between the Republican and Democratic Party in the "either" "or" scenario they have set up.

Take a look at the other Christians here, there may be disagreements but they want to know the truth, I want to know the truth as well, and even admitted on these issues I am studying. They do not say things like, "I am pretrib and this will not change"

Bible Believer said...

"7) Burning Lamp a neo-evangelical? Oh that is the funniest statement I've heard all week. No G4, you could not spot a genuine Christian if one jumped out and bit you on the nose."

He held many neo-evangelical positions and held the same attitudes. Sure there many be some comments about the errors or ROme and even shared opinions about false teachers.

"8) I do not follow Hal Lindsey or any other teacher like this. Get your facts straight. "

So you have exposed Hal Lindsey but you follow each one of his beliefs? Pre-Trib, Christian Zionism, dispensationalism?

How does that one add up?

See any inconsistencies there?

"9) I see you link to websites that are sprouting anti-Israeli propaganda. "

Which ones, not all links are endorsements?

Don't you realize the Israeli gov't is led by the same NWO controllers as ours and other countries?

Don't you see how the Pope is using Christian Zionism and Islam and playing both as pawns for his own ends?

"That is all I have to say, I see you are burying a hole for you yourself nicely with the stuff you write about, carry on :)"

"Your concern for those following the Blessed Hope brings tears to my eyes *not*, you say; "I see it setting up Christians for massive deception" Nonsense. In fact the reverse is true, when Jesus comes as promised to take His Bride home those who come knocking at His door asking to be let in, and He says; "no", will be devestated and there is a good possiblity their hearts will be heardened with hate - and they will join the massive gentile army that marches to attack Jerusalem."

Why would any Christian turn away from Jesus Christ?

As for the massive gentile army that is marching to attack Jerusalem, those fellow Christian Zionists of yours are doing what they can to ensure WWIII, and nuclear bombs across the Middle East.

Bible Believer said...


Thank you

I was taught pre-trib while in the IFB church, and at CC too. I just left Pre-Trib behind 18 months ago or so? I started questioning preTrib, even while doing this blog, always had some reservations, especially when doing the "Those Who Want to Rebuild the Temple article and the "Christian Zionist" article, I realized with growing horror how such severe deceptions had been set up. Realizing how both ends were being used, it led me to question the Pre-Trib positions even more, of course there in my own Bible studies, I was encountered verses that did not add up. Thanks for mentioning Tim LaHaye, I go back to my question, WHY DO ALMOST ALL THE FALSE TEACHERS ADHERE to PRE-TRIB so strongly?

I agree about reading God's Word and testing all the writings of these teachers, and others, test what is on this blog too, according to God's Word. I too went to go study the verses they used in their proof-texting. Hey I know eschatology can be very complex, but I knew something was off, because some verses did not match, there were incredible stretches too, especially among the Christian Zionist crowd, who desire "new sacrifices" to be done during the millennial kingdom in the temple.

I realized too the Holy Spirit was showing me other things and that while most of Christiandom was being led into incredible deception.

I have had people claim I am Replacement Theology too. One thing, I want to remind people off, is too many fall into the trap of letting Rome and it's theologians or Jesuit influenced theologians define everything for them instead of looking to God's Word.

There are matters I am still exploring myself, I have moved away from the dispensationalist positions but why would I judge others as not saved who may be studying things presently for them own selves. I agree about those who are totally dogmatic, and angry over people being pre-trib,and who are "cursing" others for not being in their camp, why I may write about very controversial issues, it is to get people to think and to examine things. I am even in the midst of undoing YEARS worth of dispensationalist teachings. This does not mean I reject prophecy like most of the liturgical amillennial crowd has been led to do. Here again, we got the RED PILL/BLUE PILL, OPPOSITIONAL HELGIAN DIALECTIC set up, those who have rejected the prophecies in the Bible-amillennials who are in liturgical churches, and those who are following a skewing of prophecy--dispensationalism, etc.

One thing I am noticing that in the apostate church world is there is an INTENSE silencing of Christians who question the PreTrib/dispy status quo. Why would I trust a website that seemingly desires us to warn us of false teachers but then holds to this silencing?

I just want THE TRUTH too. I will examine my own beliefs regarding God's Word and seek to listen the HOly Spirit. I agree, if we are to go through trials and tribulations, and suffer persecution, we are to still Praise God. That is where strong faith comes in.

Those who want to tell Christians ALONG with the endless list of false teachers, don't worry, you will escape all tribulation, that is a problem.

Bible Believer said...

correction above, those angry at those who ARE NOT pre-Trib.

Bible Believer said...

More responses later....[am low on time but thanks for all the discussions]

Julia said...

Part 1 (I seem to be long-winded and exceed the character limit)

You know, I submitted my comments on the Discerning the World site as well, since there is ongoing discussion there. I was hoping to be a part of the discussion with the folks there. But they were not posted. A reasonable discussion censored because people are not willing to even take a look. Censorship is born of fear or maybe an impatient spirit with those who differ (only God knows, not I); there is nothing wrong with taking a good look at what we believe to be sure we have come away with a proper understanding of Scripture. Too bad - praying!

(Iron sharpens iron discussion to follow - I am not a teacher of the Word of God - merely sharing thoughts and what I've come to see as I study)
I believe there will be a millennial kingdom on the earth. Like I said, I may not understand everything about it, but first, I believe 1,000 years is a 1,000 years like it says. If God meant thousands, I'm sure He would have said so. God has the ability to be specific (as He has before) because He is God and knows all things, and the timetables are His alone (i.e. prophecies concerning the various captivities of the children of Israel, the coming of Messiah, etc.)

There are 2 places where it is stated "...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4) and "...but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev. 20:6)

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." (Rev. 20:8-9a)

How can this be? Apparently those who enter this earthly kingdom will be having children during that time (not glorified saints or resurrected dead), who IN SPITE of the perfect, holy, merciful reign of Jesus, will STILL be able to be incited by Satan to rise up and rebel against His right to rule and reign, even with His good presence amongst them!

"and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev. 20:9b, 10)

It is clear these events are happening on the earth.

Then comes the white throne judgment.

Julia said...

Part 2

THEN in chapter 21 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (verses 1, 2)

It would seem to me these are actual things - not merely spiritual - because they are "seen" of John. And the new Jerusalem will also have the tree of life in it - a literal tree of life - like there was in the Garden of Eden. (Rev. 22:2)

'Tis true that, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:6) So, while we are living a spiritual reality, this has not been fulfilled - "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4) This takes place in the new heaven and new earth.

"saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ..." (Rev. 21:9b-10)

When Jesus prayed, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" He's not just talking about God's will being done on earth, but that His kingdom would come on earth as well; just as there is a literal "heavenly" kingdom there will be a literal "earthly" kingdom.

Although we are members of that great spiritual kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by faith, He said, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." (Matt. 26:29)

Again, we are all "learning." I don't believe any of us will have it all figured out - there will be many surprises. I'm sure we'll be thinking, "oh, so that's what that meant - boy did I have it wrong." We will think we have understood, but as events unfold, fortunately, we have the Holy Spirit to give us understanding that we might not be deceived. We have been given plenty of information, but how easily we can misunderstand! We see through a glass darkly, but we do need to see clearly. As we study and seek the Lord and remain humble, open and teachable, and lean not on our own understanding, He will teach us. And the truth is, it is an unfolding - over time.

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." (Prov. 16:18)

"Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day." (Psalm 25:5)

Anonymous said...

I am pre-trib, I read only the KJV, and only the dispensationalist view allows the literal reading of the Word of God.

There, Deborah (DTW) is wrong, and BB (G4) is wrong too. :)

Bible Believer said...

Even if dispensationalism appeared "earlier" that is little proof, it is true, though historically it is of interest.

Responding to this

"Dispensationalism wasn't a brand new doctrine anyway; Joachim of Fiore had put a similar idea forward in the 12th century CE. Source:"

I looked up Joachim of Fiore, haven't heard that name before. Well, remember almost ever error has earlier roots,the early church fathers who I do not trust brought in tons.

With this guy wikipedia, says he was a monk and a mystic.

It looks like he was FOR the ONE world religion pretty early on.

"He theorized the dawn of a new age, based on his interpretation of verses in the Book of Revelation, in which the Church would be unnecessary (which, of course, was considered heresy) and infidels would unite with Christians. Members of the spiritual wing of the Franciscan order acclaimed him as a prophet."


"His theories can be considered millenarian; he believed that history, by analogy with the Trinity, was divided into three fundamental epochs:
The Age of the Father, corresponding to the Old Testament, characterized by obedience of mankind to the Rules of God;
The Age of the Son, between the advent of Christ and 1260, represented by the New Testament, when Man became the son of God;
The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending (in 1260), when mankind was to come in direct contact with God, reaching the total freedom preached by the Christian message. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it. In this new Age the ecclesiastical organization would be replaced and the Order of the Just would rule the Church. This Order of the Just was later identified with the Franciscan order by his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino.

According to Joachim, only in this third Age will it be possible to really understand the words of God in its deepest meanings, and not merely literally. He concluded that this age would begin in 1260 based on the Book of Revelation (verses 11:3 and 12:6, which mention "one thousand two hundred and sixty days").[2] In this year, instead of the parousia (second Advent of Christ), a new Epoch of peace and concord would begin, thus making the hierarchy of the Church unnecessary.

Joachim distinguished between the "reign of justice" or of "law", in an imperfect society, and the "reign of freedom" in a perfect society.[3]"

Julia said...
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Bible Believer said...

Thanks for your link GS, some interesting points.

I need to study more aspects of that.
I agree that the being taken up is when Jesus Christ returns and it all happens at once at the END, there will not be TWO returns in other words. I agree with you that it happens on the last day.
"how is it that resurrected saints turn on the Lord at the end of 1000 years?"

I agree with this.

I wrote about this on the Hal Lindsey article and how astounded I was, about this,

How could people believe that Jesus returns and then the saints turn against him? What does that say about Jesus? I wrote that it is blasphemous to the max.

Ive seen some of the teachers claim, oh it's their children but that just seems to be an absurd excuse.

Bible Believer said...

"Satan go's out to deceive the nations and that is a biblical term for the lost who don't believe in Jesus so how is it that they managed to get into the Millennium? If they got into the Millennium then you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved which makes the gospel untrue."

Agree, these are some more of the HOLES in the millennial kingdom theory,

this is why Missler I believe in the Power, the Glory and Kingdom book, had to claim Christians could be thrown out in outer darkness for not being good stewarts etc. Basically he went round about to define a new version of Purgatory in that book.

I think Darby had another spirit lead him too, I think about how all of it leads to the Reconstructionism, the Dominionism, the puzzle pieces of apostasy all are linked to this skewing of prophecy.

So much false theology rests on ignoring this verse...
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They look at the WORLD's ISRAEL, the SECULAR NATION.

Also here too think about those with the desire to POINT AWAY FROM THE POPE and MYSTERY BABYLON.

Didn't dispensationalism SUCCEED to the MAX in DOING SO.

I am more leaning towards the belief the millennium is NOW as well, but it is something I am studying.

"Millennium, Kingdom of God, New Jerusalem, All Israel, Temple of God are all names for the born again believers who are In Christ."

I totally agree.

I have said so much on the Christian Zionist articles.

This is the PIECE people are missing.

They look for temples, and Israel ON THIS EARTH.

Bible Believer said...
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Bible Believer said...

Julia, some questions...

Wouldnt John 5:39, be happening all AT ONCE, and not at different times?

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (verses 4-5)
July 31, 2012 1:25 PM
Julia said...

Part 2

notice: that in this resurrection are those who were martyred during the tribulation
Why wouldn't the timing of Thessolonians be at Jesus's return? At the end?
I mean where do they get the timing that says that is EARLY on? That makes no sense, and really there is nothing in Revelation that says that is is before the Trib.

Thanks for pointing out 1 Cor which says it would be at the last tumpet.

So that is a VERY GOOD question.

The PreTribbers, say its definitely at the timing of an EARLIER TRUMPET or FIRST, don't they?

Very Good point.

With millennial kingdom, I have been exploring that one sometime, we need to cut through the muck and pray to God for truth on that one. I am of the mind we are in it now, I do not believe in a millennial kindom where Jesus comes back and is supposedly thrown out, by people who turn against him. Yes that insuintates the saints come against Jesus Christ. Talk about blasphemy!

Bible Believer said...

This article applies here as well...

and I wrote this: "There is also what seems to be implicit BLASPHEMY within the Millennial kingdom teachings. Some of you may want to ask me what is that? Ok, "jesus" comes back and returns, and supposedly then "rules" [this world] for 1,000 years and people and or their children starts setting up a rebellion against "him", AGAIN? And "jesus" is ruling right there? This presents "jesus" as a ruler, that basically 'fails' to win hearts and minds just like a human ruler. In other words, 'he' is in charge and things still 'go bad'. That makes absolutely no sense."

Bible Believer said...

correction above, I am of the mind we are in the millennium now, still exploring this but do not believe in a future millennial kingdom where Jesus Christ comes back to earth and stays here, to rule and then has people turning on him. That to me was always an incredibly absurd part of dispensationalist teaching.

Bible Believer said...

This is the verse to me that destroyed The Pre Trib position...

As I read the Pre-Trib writings, thinking of what I read in the Bible, too many discrepancies stood out to me. This was the biggest one:

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How does this happen when all the saints are supposedly gone in the Pre-Trib Rapture?

Why does the verse speak of those whose names are written in the book of life as being the exception?

Think about this, we are told we will not be here.

So whose the A/C going to be "fighting" against and seeking to overcome?

I once asked a Pre-Tribber this and they told me, "oh it's the people saved later on." That made no sense. Don't they claim the Holy Spirit, and the "church" would depart the earth at the time of the Rapture, so how is that going to happen? Another one claimed to me it was converted Jews. Things got very convoluted when I used to ask Pre-Tribbers this question. I never got a fair answer, never. HOW CAN SAINTS BE WARRED WITH BY THE ANTICHRIST if THE SAINTS HAVE ALL BEEN RAPTURED? With this stuff, sometimes you have to cut it down to the basics.

Here's how I see it, they all want to point away from the REAL ANTICHRIST, that is my running theory [yes I understand who may think this party is the false prophet and may examine other things] but this is where I ended up....

Consider the other research on this blog, how we are finding the Jesuit, Knights of Malta, CNP etc, involvements with so many DISPY teachers...


Anonymous said...

The Holy Spirit doesn't get removed at the rapture. The church gets removed, and His influence through the church, is removed. But He is still there.

Anonymous said...

BB, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent and although the Church is removed, the Holy Spirit will still be present. The Holy Spirit is present today outside of the Body of Christ to convict the lost of sin and draw them to Him.

There WILL be people saved during the Great Tribulation, but they will pay with their life. They are the Tribulation saints mentioned in the Word.

The Church, the Bride of Christ, both the living and the dead, will be safely home at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Right now evil is straining at the goads but is being held back, but when the Church is removed it will be unleashed in all its horror. There is no way that any of us can begin to imagine the wickedness and evil that will operate unrestrained. We do not deserve to escape this, but God in His mercy has a plan for His Church and it does not include wholesale, WORLDWIDE slaughter of Christians. Yes, there are pockets of persecution today just as there always has been and people martyred for their faith,but NOT on a global scale with a world dictator. There should be an urgency in each one of us to grow in Christ, share the Gospel, disciple, and live circumspectly before the Lord as a testimony.

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Rocky2 said...

[Hi Galatians 4. Saw the following on Google. BTW, Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" to see the ones who claim pretrib was taught long before 1830 - a truly groundless claim!]


by G. W. Rockwell

Pastor Erwin Lutzer at the famous Moody Church in Chicago is an outstanding preacher. But he can be moody at times - rapture moody.
Take July 29, 2012 for example. His "Moody Church Hour" sermon that day on "Philadelphia" (one of Revelation's seven churches) included the following:
"It is His coming, the rapture, that would keep the church from the hour of trial [a.k.a. the great tribulation] that is coming upon the whole earth. And isn't it interesting? He does not say 'I will keep you through the hour of trial but rather I will keep you out of - that's what the text [Rev. 3:10] says - I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.
"There is of course a disagreement as to whether or not we will go through the tribulation, or whether or not we will be raptured ahead of time, and we don't know all the details until it happens. But wouldn't it be wonderful if when we are going up in the sky we could look at all of those posttribbers and say with a smile 'I told you it was so'? Wouldn't that be wonderful to be able to do that?"
The congregation immediately applauded.
Note that Lutzer twice used the word "wonderful" when asking his audience how wonderful it would be to use spiteful pride against the only "rapture" view found in all theology books and organized churches before the year 1830: the posttribulation view!
On the "Moody Church Hour" web site the same day (July 29) Lutzer wrote that "great benefit was derived from John Stott's book WHAT CHRIST THINKS OF THE CHURCH when these messages [on Revelation's seven churches] were prepared."
Incredibly, the Stott that Lutzer leaned on disagrees completely with Lutzer. The same Stott book, p. 104, says this: "He would not spare them from the suffering [Rev. 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it."
It would be wonderful if Erwin Lutzer would visit Google and type in "Famous Rapture Watchers" and "Famous Rapture Watchers (Addendum)." Not only would he spot the very same Stott quote, but in the same summaries he would also discover that all of the greatest Greek New Testament scholars of all time have uniformly viewed Rev. 3:10 (the most important "proof text" for pretribbers) as teaching "preservation through" and not "escaping beforehand"! ("Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" is another informative Google article.)
One wonders what will have to happen to change the Moody pastor's mood.

Anonymous said...

The Jesus is Savior link proved that the rapture was taught before 1830, so rocky2's post is irrelevant. Since he wasn't there, and quotes are given, then he has no ground to stand on.

Furthermore, since 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is in the Bible, then the rapture was taught right there.

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Jeff Bynum said...

The problem with most (if not all) Eschatological theories is that they discount the very heart and meaning of The End Times as defined by The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus. In short, The Bible tells us that everything that Jesus has accomplished FOR us (in his life, death, and resurrection), Jesus will give TO us when He returns. For example, Jesus has already accomplished our Redemption, we have Redemption now but only by faith, when Jesus returns we will be Redeemed (i.e., Jesus will give us our physical, actual Redemption). No Eschatological theory that fails to have at its heart the work of Jesus FOR us 2000 years ago, can possibly understand The End Times. Most popular ‘end time’ theories jump from Revelations to Daniel without making a single stop at The Gospels and without taking into consideration what Jesus’ work tells us about the end times.

Bible Believer said...


How will there be people saved during the Trib, if all the Christians are gone? It still makes no sense. Yes sure some can be saved reading God's Word [well the Bibles that Satan and his workers didn't manage to take away] or even pondering and thinking back on previously being told the gospel but the numbers would be small. The Bible emphasizes a huge number of saints who have lost their lives.

As for the "church" being removed, lets make sure we keep our definitions straight here. Right now even considering wht is shown on this blog, the real church is a remnant, most of the people out there are sitting in apostate churches, sure some of them are saved [hopefully some will listen and come out of her] but what difference would it make to this wicked world if the brick and morter apostate churches were all emptied out? This world already hates true Christians and the things of God. It is odd to me how the apostate church teaches how they are so invaluable to keeping the world from growing more evil, but then behind the scenes every one of them are all playing footise with the politicos and evil of this world, with the promotion of wars and worse.

I know martyrship is not pretty but you wrote...

" it does not include wholesale, WORLDWIDE slaughter of Christians."


It's been happening.

Do you all realize the relative peace Christians got to enjoy in America {now ending} is COMING TO AN END, and was for a very short duration, as far as the world's history goes?

What of Rome and its centuries of persecutions and killings?

Don't those saints count?

We see the power of Rome growing now and the BEAST system fast being assembled. So yes of course things are going to WAX worse, but why draw a line between FUTURE and WHAT ALREADY HAPPENED?

Remember the AC isn't going to show up wearing a devil's outfit, with red horns and a pitchfork, most everyone is going to think he is GREAT.

{hmmm thinking about the Pope}

and all these apostate churches just love the Pope.

Bible Believer said...

Revelation 20:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Bible Believer said...

Matt 24 changed my mind too, think about the timing in Revelation where the whole unbelieving world is wailing upon the return of Jesus Christ where it talks about the tribes mourning

Revelation 1:7 ties in

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
There is no way that Matt 24 only applies to saved Jews. As you notice I wrote that is what they told me when I asked WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST GOING TO BE BEHEADING? WHO IS GOING TO BE MARTYRED if all the Christians are GONE?

I mean its crazy, the Bible tells us the man of perdition is going to be REVEALED. If the world only has unbelievers left in it, whose going to know and be shown by the Holy Spirit?

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So much does not add up with those teachings.

Bible Believer said...

Respond to part 3 GS

Ah yes, the apostates like John Hagee and other Dispys who preach that the Jews do not need Jesus Christ to be saved and that they can be saved by adhering to the law. How much of the Bible or Jesus's teachings does that countradict.

"Part 3
Question: So there is no need to preach the Gospel to the Jews really coz God has a different plan of salvation for them.

Answer: No I never said that they will have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved."

In fact all the warnings about Babylon in the OT link to the later rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Modern day Talmudic Judaism too is joined to Mystery Babylon via Kabbalah and other false teachings that came in.

"Question: But I thought they will have to keep the Law to be saved.

Answer: Yes they will have to keep the Law and believe on the Lord.

Question: But isn't that another gospel? and aren't you accursed if you believe such things as per Galatians 1:8."

Yes that is another gospel.

And how many of them are now selling that horrible lie and betraying Jewish people by telling it? John Hagee MR.CUFI is one of them...

""I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption" (Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988)."

Watch out for those who speak of 'dividing the word of truth"[to advertise their two gospels", and who speak of two gospels. I have seen that stuff promoted through out the dispensationalist and Christian Zionist world. It is a lie and a betrayal.

That goes back to the verse I quoted...

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Bible Believer said...

Part 4 GS

I agree.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is no Rapture, that is earlier and where people get "Changed" earlier on.

One trend I have noticed in dispensationalism, this is NOT all by no means but those who have taken it so far, they reject the writings of Paul in the NT.

So you can see I suppose how that happened?

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Rocky for those quotes.

Is that the same Stott who was involved with Lausanne and that whole group? Yeah can see why his mood changed.

That PreTrib Rapture Dishonesty article looks very interesting.Reading through it now

Hmm interesting how many false teachers are on that list, who teach many other false doctrines who have been exposed on this blog.

Thomas Ice, even very close connections to LahHaye and other false teachers and the Pre-Trib Research Center.

Anonymous said...

know martyrship is not pretty but you wrote...

" it does not include wholesale, WORLDWIDE slaughter of Christians."


It's been happening.

Do you all realize the relative peace Christians got to enjoy in America {now ending} is COMING TO AN END, and was for a very short duration, as far as the world's history goes?

I don't pretend to be a student of history, but I guess I missed the part about the entire world being under one dictator and ruling everyone. Maybe you could point that out? There has always been martyrs for the faith and there still is today in Muslim countries and China, etc. But globally? That has yet to happen! And what do you mean by saying "don't those saints count?" Really, I don't mean to be unkind, but this is really showing your ignorance. Certainly those saints "count" but those persecutions are only a precursor of what will happen when the influence of the Body of Christ is removed. Yes, the apostate churches will still be filled with unbelievers, but the remnant will be gone. The Church is salt and light -those who are truly saved - and that influence will be gone and darkness will have full reign. That coupled with the wrath of God will be so terrible that none of us can imagine. And God would certainly not allow the wholesale slaughter of His entire Church! It is ludicrous to think so.

It is obvious what the tone of this forum is and that discussion is fruitless. The only thing that will convince is when these events do come to pass. Then when those who refused the truth are standing before the Bema Seat to give an account of their lives will finally know the truth and regret believing a lie and encouraging others to do the same. This has nothing to do with salvation of course. Those who are truly saved will enter into the joy of their Lord and will partake of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

There will be tears of regret for discounting the role of the apple of God's eye, His chosen people in the end time scenario. Replacement theology takes different forms - some directly and some through the back door so to speak.

I find it sad that so many are being robbed of the Blessed Hope and the promise of our Bridegroom to imminently come back for His Bride and disparaging those and considering them foolish for believing it is "escapism". There can certainly be differences of opinion but there is much confusion and we know who is the author of that.

Time will tell who is right. In the meantime, our focus should be on sharing the Gospel, reaching the lost and discipling converts. Regardless of where one stands on the issue, we can certainly agree that the times are evil and getting more so every day and the time is short before something dramatic happens on God's time schedule. As the words of the old hymn say - "Work for the night is coming."

Bornagain Soldier said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jesus Wins said...

Dear BB,
I came across a few of your comments on DTW. I congratulate your for refusing to post further. I thank the Lord for pulling me away from there with the editorial work I'm doing by making me busy. I stumbled on DTW by accident through Miriam Franklin's now shut down website in December. At first, I was intrigued and then a littele amused by the way Deborah treated those who disagreed with her. I soon felt she crossed the line with her snide, snarky comments which on the surface may seem funny but weren't. Anyway, I haven't been back except once a few week ago. I was finally put off when an Australian blogger opined that he found her attitude arrogant and offputting, confirming what I'd seen and felt. Anyway.. You continue with your two bits' worth. The Lord bless you.

Helen said...

I too have fallen foul of Deborah's childish control tactics, take her article on prophets, are they for today... I said my bit, she retorted in caps bleep, then in Lower case wrong, I told het never to respond to like that, I don't do it to her, she retorted she was sorry I did not have a sense of humour and went in caps bleep.again. my retort was that I gave that type of behaviour up when I reached adulthood, and I was sorry I still didn't find her funny. The madam did not post my comment. that to me is control. I do not think prophesy has ceased, I don't believe the type put out there by the NAR brigade is true. She says prophesy has. I know Christians have differed on the tribulation, I am in favour of pre, but mainly cos I'd hate to be around, during, I'm human, prone to fear. I am humble enough to wait to see how the Holy Spirit leads and guides as the time draws near, He me when the time comes what is to be. I'd just block her and cease interacting with her, she ain't worth it.

Rocky2 said...

(Hi G...4. Saw this on the net. BTW, see "Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture" on Google.]


BREAKING NEWS: Intensive and extensive and expensive and even pensive research has just discovered that the well-known pretribulation rapture is really and actually a SEVEN-stage coming. For proof look closely at I Thess. 4:13-18:
(1) The Lord descends.
(2) The shout.
(3) The archangel's voice.
(4) The trumpet of God.
(5) The dead rise.
(6) The caught up (rapture).
(7) The meeting in the air.
Right here you can add gasps, shortness of breath, and clutching your heart. Yes, it's true - seven (count them) stages. BTW, the following pretrib traffickers don't know yet about this new discovery: Crouch, Hagee, Hindson, Ice, Jeffrey, Jeremiah, LaHaye, Lindsey, Lutzer, Markell, Missler, Stanley, Strandberg, and Van Impe.
If rapture discoveries are new to you, Google articles like "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M., "X-Raying Margaret," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Walvoord Melts Ice," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Thieves' Marketing," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," and "Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum."
For more info on the exciting seven-stage rapture, Google Joe Ortiz's "End Times Passover" blog (Oct. 19, 2012) which can out-blog any blog that knows how to blog!

Bornagain Soldier said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Pretrib Rapture Pride

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google "Morgan Edwards' Rapture View" and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don't have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice." Also Google "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)" - featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 "End Times Passover" blog.

/ Above seen on the net. Gene /

Ruth said...

I believed in pre-trib dispensationalism for 40 years. Five years ago, I prayed for the truth about end times. I asked the Lord to help me understand whether the rapture was going to be pre, mid, prewrath, or post trib. I ran into another blind alley by wasting 2 years listening to the likes of Jacob Prasch, Chuck Missler, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, John Haller, and JD Faraq. Notice most of those guys are pretrib "Christian" Zionists. Listening to them only solidified my lobg held beliefs. But I knew something wasn't right. I wasn't a casual dispensationalist; I was a deeply indoctrinated one who owned an extensive library of works by Donald Barnhouse, Harry Ironside, J.A. Seiss, J. Vernon every modern prophecy book on the market for 4 decades: Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, etc. I kept begging God to show me the truth. He answered my prayers in 2016. I am currently deprogramming from the lies. The truth is, dispensationalism is a massive lie of the Enemy. The rapture timing hardly matters when one realizes what the scriptures actually say.

Ruth said...

The truth is, Christians have been duped to believe (1) The Jews are still God's chosen people. (2) The church is not God's New Covenant continuation of Israel, comprised of Jewish and Gentile believers (which Galatians, Ephesians, and Romans, among many other scriptures prove). (3) that the pretrib rapture, a clever device used to convince Christians that God will end the church age to focus on His "real" people, thus requiring the Christians to "get out of the picture" is true (4) that Jesus is still waiting to sit on a throne in earthly Jerusalem when Scripture says He started His Kingdom 2,000 years ago, and He is seated at right hand of the Father (5) oh I could go on and on....tired of typing for now.