Monday, May 14, 2012

Men and Women


I had someone write me, saying that I was sinning to be writing this blog due to my being a woman.
I think the patriarchy stuff is getting carried away. It seems according to this person just by being female, one is not to speak of any religious matters. This is not a church. Does this mean I am sinning by witnessing? or talking about God to other people? It is the strangest thing I have ever heard.

I know several other female bloggers have heard this nonsense before, the false preachers would love to silence 50% of their detractors in one fell swoop. Hey if most of the male pastors are busy being apostates or advancing Dominionism, it's the Christian's job to speak out. Am I supposed to go slink silently into the kitchen and press delete to this website? Well I have to go make dinner in there soon.

Not everyone is called to do a blog like this one, I understand that, but I think about what I have written about for two years, and some man who thinks by the reason of my gender, that I should shut down tomorrow.  I believe men are to be loving leaders of the household, men as pastors, etc, but the Christian Taliban, seems to want to shut women away the same as the heads of Islam do. Some of these men would love to shut every female in the house and not allow them outside without a male escort.

They would have told Priscilla, to stay home, husband or not.

Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

1Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

The patriarchy influences are getting scary out there. Piper who is part of the patriarchy movement, wrote this:

I dealt with a couple one time. They were sitting in front of me, and she said, "He learned from you that I have to get permission from him for everything I do." I said, "Really? Like what?" And she said, "To go to the bathroom! He won't let me leave the room without his permission. If I get up and walk out of the room, he says, 'Hey, you're supposed to ask me first.'"
That's not because the man values complementarianism. That's not complementarianism. That's sick! So we do deny women things that we shouldn't deny them, if we're sick.
Seriously it's kind of scary even that an article like that was necessary......perhaps he should rethink some of what he is teaching, for a man to even get that idea.

Wartburg Watch, wrote about this on their website, I do not agree with them on everything but they are right about the influences of the patriarchy movement.

"Is he aware that some of his buddies have encouraged some distinctly odd and even abusive behaviors, on occasion? Piper says,“And we're going to probably make different judgments about that.” He is discussing Biblical clarity and then says we are going to see things differently? So much for "clarity." There's the rub. Here are “examples” of "clarity" and "differing judgements" that have been reported by those who claim to have attended churches that are pastored by good buddies of Piper.
Women must ask their husband’s permission to attend Bible study.
Women must drop what they are doing and bring coffee to their husbands at work as soon as they are commanded. (A game a few pastors played to “show” the obedience of their wives.”
Women should sit in the back of the church.
Women should not go to college.
Daughters should stay at home with daddy until they are married and should tend to daddy’s needs.
Women should not teach baptized boys."

See my article..."Two Sides of the Same Evil Coin: Radical Feminism Vs. The Patriarchy Movement" 

Watching this stuff progress, it seems to be growing worse. Everything seems to be getting crazier out there. I don't know about you, and maybe this is a thought that may get me in a bit of trouble with some of my readers, but I have tired of what I call STEPFORD Christianity, that they seem to be selling to the extreme "right" side of the equation. What if you don't fit the demographics? Even their definition of men and women, puts pictures into my head of perfectly coiffed stepford wives, this time of a Christian flavor, who are automatically excellent housekeepers and perfectly obedient to the "patriarch's" every word.

It does not allow for average people or the messiness of everyday life--I'm not talking about the messiness and turmoil of sin, but the troubles that come to everyone. That said, I don't trust, all that "BE MANLY MEN!" articles that Piper, Driscoll and others all seem enamored with too. It's like they want cookie cutter personalities and everyone to become like caricatures that have been set out.  I understand the biblical edicts against being effeminate for men, but when they tell people you all must be THE SAME, it bothers me.

 While God does set out some roles for men and women, the emphasis on the war of the sexes gives me a headache. The new world order has used this strife to bring trouble to our lives, the luciferians essentially hate women, and it can come from the left--the feminist-two for one deal world, where women, motherhood and family are degraded but it also can come from the right, where men are told and instructed to be "muscular" tyrants, that need to refuse to let the "little" women boss them around. Why do you think think so many false religions and cults oppress women in this world too where they very personhood is squelched out and its all about control?  Men except the cretins at the top of the pyramid do not prosper in these false religious systems either, they become oppressed as well.

Another verse that is forgotten a lot...

Gal 3:28    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

and what about this one?

 Eph 5:25    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


Anonymous said...

You can have a blog as a woman. Of course.

What you can't do, is be the pastor of the church. But every other role, yes. A blog is not a church.

Kayfabe said...

Ken Graves from Calavary Chapel is one of the worst offenders of trying to put men in this small little box of supposed masculinity. He made sopme statement during one of his sermons that being an artist was "gay". I guiess he wants men to be MMA fighting, Deer Hunting cave men

Bible Believer said...

Yes, that sort of thing makes me sick. What if a man has a more sensitive personality or is in an arts field, or doesn't like to hunt, and is a more "gentle" person? This doesn't mean they are homosexual either by the way, they push that too. I see the whole MMA fighting, Deer Hunting Cave Man thing promoted too. Hey the same goes for the men, as goes for the women who do not fit the Stepford model of conformity. There are men who have come out of patriarchy cults like the Lost Boys of FLDS who talk about the abuse and oppression. Same for ATI, and Gothards crowd. Some men want actual real partners who are allowed to use their brains rather then little automotans to do their bidding. I think that makes for a happier marriage for BOTH parties. I often think about the level of responsiblity dumped on a man too in a modern society, even in Quiverful, if he loses his job, it's game over, there isn't even the supportive community the Amish have built for themselves. As a woman it was weird hearing all that stuff. It just reminded me of updated Men are Like Mars, Women are Like Venus being sold under a Christian veneer.

Yeah I used to hear some of this stuff coming from different factions in the Calvary Chapel world and out of evangelical churches. It seemed to stress STEREOTYPES of both men and women. For those who do not fit the mold [my beliefs are traditional] but I am talking personality, etc, where does that leave them?

It is like they want pews of people who are all alike!

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Anon...

Yes I understand not being a pastor of a church and agree with that. said...

I support your work. I enjoy reading your articles, and have been greatly encouraged by your insight. I do not think that you should stop writing. The bible does not forbid women to speak about religious matters with others. It merely sets rules of conduct for when men and women are gathered together in a formal assembly. What it does forbid, is for a woman to assume a position of authority over a man. This would be contrary to God's design. Since the man is to be head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church.

I admit, one must be careful not to go to extremes. I myself was guilty of holding a romanticized view of what families used to be like. But in thinking about it more, I began to see that women have always worked, and helped to support the family- only in different ways. In biblical times, the society was more agricultural. So both men and women would work on their lands/farms, feeding the livestock, miking cows, collecting eggs, planting seeds, harvesting, hunting, cooking, making clothing, etc.

Donna Martin said...

I agree with the last person who commented. Women were not intended to preach, but that's not what you're doing. You don't have a congregation, and you don't exert your authority over men. Getting comments like the one that woman gave is one of the reasons I don't solicit feedback on my blog. There's always one out there that would like to see you quit, and have no ability to restrain themselves from giving an unkind word. Keep up the good work, Sister.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Christian. I agree, that I do not need to stop writing and never planned on letting this stop me. Those who want to suppress women to the point they cannot even share an opinion are the ones who desire tyranny and are lovers of the Antichrist police state and often Dominionism. I agree with what you have to say about what the bible lays out. In the Quiverful/Vision Forum world, they are romanticizing things to reign people in, to help with the delusion, so people will envision having these "perfect families" and "lives. This is an interesting post about how old pictures are used and what the reality of the old days really was...

This idea of women being able to stay home and never leave is nonsense when even compared to thousands of years of agricultural society and even food markets, where women often to help their family had to help provide for their families. No farmer's wife was able to sit around sipping tea, sewing doilies, while the men worked, no if anyone even reads Laura Ingalls Wilder, while women had their household duties, they were on in the fields TOO and feeding the animals or helping take produce to market. This was true for biblical times too.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Donna, I agree, a blog is not a congregation. There is no authority over men here. I understand why some do not have feedback on blogs, I do enjoy the exchanges myself, but even here my comments are moderated for reason. Blogs like this do get attacked, and there is a lot of hate mail or offensive spam that gets sent over here.

I tend to think many who want to silence blogs like this one and others have their own agendas.

news4themasses said...

"Christian Taliban"!!! for real! lol. These patriarchs would love nothing more than to see us in Christian burkas (not driving) to the grocery store and ironing all day. As long as women are not allowed to have critical thinking skills, read and study the bible, they'll do whatever they're told and it'll make the world go round. I saw this back in the "Promise keepers" junk. It's only continued to grow. I guess Christians fear that everyone will soon be gay if they don't start hitting their women over the head with the club and lay their foot down every once in a while. It takes a real man to lift his wife up, teach her, respect her, honor her, treat her as a peer (physically weaker yes, but mentally inferior NO). This mentality of only addressing the men as worthy of being led by the Holy Spirit is anathema! No where in scripture is this mentality condoned or perpetuated.

Bible Believer said...

Hey news4themasses, I just got some irate Anon, who while claiming to be a woman, [doubtful but possible I suppose] told me I was a closet feminist and some other insults I'd rather not repeat. I guess the way some of these people are going, it will "feminist" to read a book or drive a car, or touch a wrench to fix something. I wish some could see they are willing dupes of the pendelum game, the powers that be dumped the luciferian extreme feminism on us, and now want to use it's insane counter balance with the "Christian Taliban" garbage. Yeah I've gotten that hate mail too. They claim I never admit being a woman, well I think mentioning a "HUSBAND" would make that clear, to someone. Every cult treats women like garbage. There is total overlaps between FLDS and their treatment of women except no multiple wives, and what the Vision Forum, Duggars, Quiverfuls, Family Integrated, and Patriarchy types want. Yeah the Promise Keepers started that manly man garbage back in the 90s, hey they converge everything, the New Agers had their men's movement where they would take the men out to get in touch with "themselves" and do 'drumming' so I guess they sold a men's movement for the Christian set. To be honest any man who has to concern himself with controlling women has lost the plot LONG AGO. I hate to see how these news things are going to be abused. I had the experience once of standing next to my husband at church, and talking to another male church member and being told by him, "Oh you are female, you don't know anything about this topic", when actually it was one I had studied and posted online about. Christian men should love and care about women, not treat them like little slaves and underlings to control. Sometimes I think the NWO put advance planning into that satanic movie the Handmaiden's Tale. Predictive programming? I hate that movie with it's messages but some of these people act like they could go star in it. Advice to some of my readers, go read a few memoirs of FLSD women who got out. This is where Dominionism is headed [except for plural marriage] Secular book but this is what happens when women are degraded.

I do truly think some want Christianity to be like extreme Islam in the treatment of women. No doublt about it at all!!

news4themasses said...

Maybe we're on to something here, the "gayer" the world gets the more extreme the fundies get to prove they're not gay! Obama just endorsed Gay Marriage, and you know there are Gay and Lesbian Preachers out there in their various apostate churches. Women have notoriously been at the helm of some of the most widely spread cults: Seventh Day Adventist (Ellen B. White), Foursquare (Aime McPherson), Kathryn Khulman, Henrietta Mears, Joyce Meyer, Tammy Fae Baker...the list goes on. So, "men" who are extremely machismo came out of these cults started by women then turn around and say women have no place "teaching," that's ironic. Don't mistake me, I have no intention or desire to ever teach or have spiritual authority over my husband or ANY man for that matter, in that case I agree, God will deal with any man who's dropped the ball and does not take the Word of God seriously. Interestingly, there are women 'who love to have it so,' and are willing to participate in this sick movement. It appears that some of our dear sisters in the LORD are being brainwashed to not think for themselves, not study the word for themselves, and believe the lie that in order to have happiness and be a "good godly woman" they must debase themselves to abuse, allow their children to be abused, and somehow through their suffering God will bless them. It's truly horrific what ends up happening in these cults. You referenced FLDS, but I've watched videos of IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptists) who share the same trauma. Ignorance and hate can manifest itself in all cultures and in all "religious" factions.

Anonymous said...

My former pastor, who is closely affiliated with the AZ CC scene and some would say the father of modern Communist Christian Societies, centered near Eugene Oregon back in the day, is almost obsessed with the women in submission thing.
I've heard him claim that other single women with blogs were in sin.
I've heard him brag in his Joshua Group (he LOVES to brag) that HIS WIFE would NEVER think of expressing any opinions about anything concerning the church.
YET.... when he felt he needed to part company with my son.... he sicced his wife on my son's wife and the pastor's wife just SAVAGED my daughterinlaw.
I would not call that the sort of of thing a a MAN... much less a pastor... would do.
That is such a cowardly move that that alone would warrant being brought before the church for discipline... and ousted... but there is no mechanism for that in Calvary Chapels.

If a CC pastor has ought against someone OUTSIDE their body they want to follow Biblical principles...ON THEIR TERMS.
If the have ought against someone inside their body they have no need for Biblical principles, since they have total control,. They simply call security (armed security generally) and toss them out.

The Biblical model is only used only when they need to GET CONTROL of someone outside their grasp.
THAT is CULT folks... no matter how you slice it.
Having to get control of folks who have left your sphere of immediate control is how gangsters and cultists operate.

The short of it is that I wouldn't be worrying about these folks.
The letter you got could easily been from my former CC pastor (he lurks here) or someone he discipled.
He does not belong in a church much less in the position as pastor.
But we are learning that MANY CC pastors fall into that category.

By the way CCites.... do you know where the MOSES MODEL came from?
I'll give you a hint:
The MOSES BERG MODEL might be a better description for it.
One of the EARLIEST leaders... the one who introduced Lonnie Frisbee to Chuck Smith... used to hang with David Moses Berg.
And also by the way; the Children of God TOO kept women firmly under their thumb..... then forced them into FLIRTY FISHING to grow the group and having sex with their children to make them "sexually healthy" (Yah right.)

Hopes this helps you understand WHAT this is all about.
It is not about Biblical Principles... these detractors ignore MOST Biblical principles themselves.
This is about SHUTTING YOU UP.

As a word of encouragement I would say,
Old unrepentant MOSES BERG cohorts are good to have as your enemy... because you CERTAINLY don't want them as your friends come judgement day.

Bible Believer said...

Hi News4themasses, you'll probably find today's article of interest, I cover some of that. I have my theory about the extreme fundies going on about the Homosexuals and how that is helping the overall-homosexual agenda. I hope I explained it well enough. I know that Hegelian Dialectic stuff took me some time to wrap my mind around as well. It's all working together where the focus is on them, and to change attitudes out there. I agree about the women starting cults, SDA etc. Yeah it is kind if ironic that some of the men coming out of cults started by women do the turn around. LOL. I have only merely mentioned even Chuck Smith's roots with the woman founded foursquare denomination...Aimee Semple McPherson.

I do not think women should pastor a church and do not believe it is the place for women, agree with my other readers here, but you are right there are some who seem quite eager to have 50% of the population give up thinking for themselves and studying God's Word or even standing up as adult women for what is right. These types seem to want unthinking robots that just do their bidding, they truly do see women as less then human, as chattel and second class citizens. Yes you are right about the abuse being rife and well these types tell the women to obey and submit, there even rejecting endless bible verses that speak of standing against evil and not enabling it. I have to admit there seem to be segments of the fundamentalist Christian world, IFB and Dominionism movement who seem bent on being JUST LIKE FLDS, with the exception of the multiple wives for one husband thing. One of the worse spiritual errors of Mormons is every male head of the household being a "priest" with his family in submission to him, to reach God. This is why the Polygomists have so many children, they believe the mroe children they have, they can populate their own planet one day and be the 'god" of it. I am not making any of this up. Even mainstream Mormonism teaches the male of the house as being the house "priest". Here is yet more false teachings that detract from Jesus Christ as our high priest.
Sadly many of these folks are advancing the same extremes seen in the FLDS cult and others like it.

Debasement of women.

Women must obey men no matter what.

Women have no resource, no protection.

Women are property-chattel

and so forth and so on.

I agree hate and ignorance can come about in every culture.

Bible Believer said...

Yeah its weird to see CC pastors obessed with women being in submission, given Chuck Smith's early start with Kathyrn Khulman and Aimee Semple McPherson's church...Four Square.

I saw the whole MOSES BERG "Children of God" group coming out of the Jesus MOvement. I do not know much about it.

I saw this article online, NOT AN ENDORSEMENT:

My memory banks are fuzzy on this, but didn't the actor River Phoenix grow up in that group, I read some biography as an unbeliever where I read about the Children of God a bit. It was a very leftist Jim Jones like cult except with more promiscuity and where they used women in a sexual manner.

keep reading have more to say about Shiloh etc.

Bible Believer said...

So your CC pastor actually told you, that his wife was never to express any opinions regarding the church, that is very SAD. You see many of these false preachers want control and if you can get 50% of the population to think it is a sin to open their mouths, that is what you end up with. I am sorry your family has suffered from this man's actions. I hope you have all distanced yourselves and have gotten away from there now. Yes with the Moses Model, the pastor can do whatever regarding church business in ousting someone out etc. Was the security armed at the church? I have heard about this. There is no way I would attend a church with armed security. Just thinking about that one. Like the pastor of a church like that has goons to do their bidding.
Don't worry I do not let the detractors here stop me, it would have long ago, there is enough of them.

I question many of the pastors out there including CC.

I wonder if Moses Berg did follow something like the Moses Model.

That one would take some research. looks like he was totally in charge. Very sick and twisted cult with endless false teachings. What is it about New Agers, cultists and Luciferians and using the angel name Gabriel for false teachings?

There seems to be some interesting stuff about SHILOH COMMUNE. It seems to be a WEIRD point of connection between some CC pastors and Moses Berg at least knowing each other in the early Jesus Movement days

You wrote "One of the EARLIEST leaders... the one who introduced Lonnie Frisbee to Chuck Smith... used to hang with David Moses Berg."

Yeah that is scary if they all were together there.

"The House of Miracles was a series of Christian communal houses established during the early Jesus Movement under the auspices of Pastor Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, California. The House of Miracles was the group from which sprang the largest (and one of the longest lasting) of the Jesus People communal groups, the Shiloh Youth Revival Centers, which had 100,000 members and 175 communal houses spread across the United States and Canada during its lifespan.

On May 17, 1968 John Higgins,Sr. and Lonnie Frisbee opened the first House of Miracles in Costa Mesa on 19th St. There were nineteen houses eventually involved as Houses of Miracles throughout California: one each in Costa Mesa, Corona, Downey, Lompoc, Garlock, Long Beach, Muscoy, Oxnard, Pacific Grove, Ridgecrest, Southgate and Whittier; two houses apiece in Fontana, Riverside and Santa Ana; and one in Phoenix, AZ. All gradually closed throughout 1969 and 1970 as members moved to Oregon to form Shiloh Youth Revival Centers: the last House of Miracles (in Oxnard) closed in July 1970.” –Courtesy of Wikipedia."

Yeah the Children of God treated women horribly too. Women are debased by cultists from both sides.

I agree with you it is ABOUT SHUTTING PEOPLE UP. Control and more. Cults do control men too, of course as well, even in FLDS, the MEN, yes the MEN are controlled, I read enough books about it, where if a man went against the patriarch's word, they were allowed to remove his wife and children and marry the wife off to someone more in favor and hand the children over.

I believe the Jesus Movement was an operation from the get-go to infiltrate the churches, so I guess you can probably surmise what I think of those very early associations as well.

Bible Believer said...

"David Berg and The Children of God - After taking over responsibility of a Huntington Beach coffeehouse ministry, formerly operated by David Wilkerson's Teen Challenge Organization, evangelist David Berg and his musically-inclined family by 1968 had recruited a modest number of hippie followers. Berg's message centered on compelling listeners to make a radical break with society (the "systemites") by making an "one-hundred percent commitment" to his "Teens for Christ" ministry. Recruits were assured that by this action they would be joining the one true remnant of Christian faith in the last days before the return of Christ.

But because they encouraged teenagers to make such a radical break with society, the group came under the scrutiny of local law enforcement who responded to a number of irate parents wondering where their children were. Charges of "brainwashing" and "kidnapping" ensued. Berg and his group were subsequently chased from their California location and on to the road. Despite these initial rumblings, however, in early 1971 the newly dubbed "Children of God" were still considered orthodox by most, although they were branded as the most radical (and perhaps eccentric) arm of the larger Jesus Movement. The favorable attitude changed soon after, as the charges from parents intensified and some of Berg's internal writings laced with profanities escaped to the public. After stops in Arizona, Quebec (Canada), and a one in the Pacific Northwest where they took over the main operations of the Jesus People Army, Berg and the Children of God (COG) fled to Europe leaving behind a number of lawsuits and scandals.

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s "The Family of Love" (as they renamed themselves) continued to evangelize with the belief that that the Second Coming of Christ would occur in 1993 as Berg had prophesied. Controversy still surrounds the group as many ex-members have brought forth accusations of sexual abuse and child molestation. Family spokespeople deny the charges. David Berg passed away in 1994 and his legacy is still promoted by his followers."

Bible Believer said...

"John Higgins and the Shiloh Youth Revival Centers Organization - Saved in 1966 after reading the Bible in an effort to disprove it, the former New Yorker started attending the fledgling Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. Along with Lonnie and Connie Frisbee, John and his wife Jackie were asked to be the elders of the very first House of Miracles communal home in 1968. Under Higgins' leadership a number of other communities opened throughout the southwestern United States all subsequently dubbed The House of Miracles. While scouting some property up in Oregon, Higgins received a vision to move their various ministries north. Naming this first Oregon communal location 'Shiloh' after an Old Testament prophetic passage, the Shiloh Youth Revival Centers Organization (SYRCO) began planting other communal houses throughout the Pacific Northwest. It is estimated that from 1968 to 1978 the SYRCO established 178 locations although no more than 50 houses were in operation at one time. After charges of financial mismanagement and authoritarianism were brought up against Higgins in 1978, he was asked to leave the ministry. The SYRCO battled to stay afloat for the next several years but finally sold their remaining properties and closed operations in 1988. John Higgins moved to Arizona and is presently the pastor of a Calvary Chapel affiliate."

Bible Believer said...


Berg's Family website...warning..

Berg came out of Foursquare too? interesting...

"The best college I could think of to go to was Life Bible College which was Amiee Semple McPherson's. Mother sort of encouraged that too because she liked Amiee. It was a big college, well known and respected at Angeles Temple. It was Foursquare, a Pentecostal denomination founded by Amiee Semple McPherson."

Strange stuff to be sure. The roots of Calvary Chapel well, were always very odd to me. I only probably scratched the surface with the few articles I have done.

Sorry so many links above, I was doing some reading while responding...

Bible Believer said...

Have you seen my articles on Lonnie Frisbee make sure you check those out too.

Julie J said...

Wow...this goes to show just how much I was paying attention. By reading your words, I assumed you were a man. :/

BTW, I am a woman. :) And in the 2 days I have been reading your blog I have been encouraged that I am not alone in my pursuit of the truth of God's word and in my repentance and decision to truly submit to His authority.

I have been in church all my life. It is just now, at 35, that my eyes are being opened to the church and how it has fallen in line with the wicked world system.

I am so grateful to God for creating me the way he did. I have always asked hard questions but now I am developing true convictions and am walking in obedience more and more.

Please continue your good work. You are turning many back to our Father. God bless you.

Bible Believer said...

Welcome to the blog Julie

Thanks for the encouragement. God bless. I am glad my blog has been of help to you.

ken kirchhevel said...

women are wonderful creations and there would not be any men (beyond adam) without women! Godly women are refreshing! You know God is so wonderful, all of creation is full of wonder beauty and order. Seder is the hebrew word for order, and in hebrew when asked how are you- literally how is your peace- the answer is in order-Besedar! May God through his word and spirit bring his order into our lives! Shalom in Messiah Yeshua!