Sunday, March 25, 2012

Do You Believe in a Millennial Kingdom?

Do you believe in a millennial kingdom that is on earth for a 1,000 years?

Why would Jesus Christ tell us...

Jhn 18:36    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

and then people announce to us, "Oh yes, his kingdom will be of this world!"

Something does not add up. 

From a website that believes in an Millennial Kingdom:

Do you believe in millennialism?

Here is a preacher that believes in a millennial kingdom:

Lately I am pondering beliefs about the millennial kingdom. I have delayed doing this post because this is an issue still being explored, but wanted to just bring up my thoughts on this topic, I am still praying for truth in regards to this matter. One caveat: I do not believe these eschatalogical differences determine salvation. Even if you disagree here, you are welcome to add your input.

I have been thinking about the whole Dominionism thing, and how they believe that churches and Christians are to set up "the kingdom of god" on earth before Jesus returns, and how those teachings have fueled the mess of apostasy we see before us. When everyone is focusing on THIS WORLD, it's power, it's prestige, people have sold out to the devil, and told Satan YES, to the offer he tried to get Jesus to accept which was an offer of all the world kingdoms. I've brought this point up about the seven mountain types before.

More and more I reject the idea of a millennial kingdom even as it is tied to other false pre-millenial teachings WHY? Because it seems more and more to be a SET UP to me that helps advance the agenda of the wannabe temple rebuilders, Christian Zionists and Dominionists who want the "kingdom of god", to be mostly about THIS WORLD, and their power and control.

There is also what seems to be implicit BLASPHEMY within the Millennial kingdom teachings. Some of you may want to ask me what is that? Ok, "jesus"  comes back and returns, and supposedly then "rules" [this world] for 1,000 years and  people and or their children starts setting up a rebellion against "him", AGAIN? And  "jesus" is ruling right there? This presents "jesus" as a ruler, that basically 'fails' to win hearts and minds just like a human ruler. In other words, 'he' is in charge and things still 'go bad'. That makes absolutely no sense.

Also, is someone going to try and tell me that Satan is not loosed on this world NOW? How does that add up.

Remember how how some rejected Jesus Christ because he was NOT the earthly ruler and military hero and type of Messiah they expected? So why should we believe Jesus will come and act the "same" as a world leader?  Do you know how many people talk about being "rewarded" in a WORLDLY way, by saying they will be one of the people in charge in the millenial kingdom? Even that book Missler wrote with his wife, "The Kingdom, Power and the Glory", said some people would be "christians" who didn't get much done and would be sent out into the dark or dog shed while others who got more done would be  the elite with a space at the table "ruling" over others. While Jesus Christ is King of All Kings, some seem to picture 'this earthly kingdom' as the serfs and vassals, like a Medieval dream of some sort.

This doesn't mean I am a preterist who denies Bible prophecy, here too we may see various deceptive senarios. But ask yourself this, how does it make sense for Jesus Christ to return and then the world go bad again? What do they consider the loosing of Satan and how is that time in the distant future different now?

Some define Jerusalem wrongly.

Ever read this verse?

Gal 4:26    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rev 3:12    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.


blueberry said...

Many thanx for an awesome blogg Galatians 4 !!!

Graftedgentile said...

Thanks for your blog. Although I don't ascribe to amellinialism.
There are just way to many scripture's (most O.T.)that one has to "spiritualise" in order to make amellinialism work. If we read the O.T. texts (as they are) and then read the pertinent N.T. Prophecies, then it all makes perfect sense.
Thanks again for allowing me to comment.

Graftedgentile said...

Thanks for your blog.
I have been on both sides of this issue and have really started from scratch. In my most recent studies, I have found that if we start with the O.T., and let the text "say what it says", and not try to "spiritualise anything. We can then quit easily see how N.T Prophecies precisely fit the same patterns.
It still alarms me to hear Christians take these prophecies and allegorise them, or make them "spiritual in meaning.
It has always been safer to lean on the side of cautious literalism,
while letting the known allegories,poetry, symbolisms and literalism...ect. be what they are.
What is dangerous, in my opinion, is to force a literary type where it does not belong.
Blessings, Graftedgentile

Graftedgentile said...

Thanks for your blog.
I have been on both sides of this issue and have really started from scratch. In my most recent studies, I have found that if we start with the O.T., and let the text "say what it says", and not try to "spiritualise anything. We can then quit easily see how N.T Prophecies precisely fit the same patterns.
It still alarms me to hear Christians take these prophecies and allegorise them, or make them "spiritual in meaning.
It has always been safer to lean on the side of cautious literalism,
while letting the known allegories,poetry, symbolisms and literalism...ect. be what they are.
What is dangerous, in my opinion, is to force a literary type where it does not belong.
Blessings, Graftedgentile

Bible Believer said...

Thanks blueberry. I must tell you I do not agree with the SDA church having written about them before.

I try to read scripture outside the terms.

I don't want to call myself an amillennialist in that most churches in that position reject bible prophecy almost with a 2 Peter 3:3 position. Obviously you can see this blog does not fit, the "maybe jesus will come back in a million years" crowd.

so obviously if you read enough of this blog, you will see I do not fit that side either. I believe we are near the last days, in the warnings in prophecy.

I see a lot of abuse of OT texts in the Christian Zionists/Premill world, where they misinterpet many things.

Such as ignoring of the verse I mention and this one too.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They skew prophecy, to fit their own mold.

With prophecy, I am even thinking "ignore" the terms, and don't look for a box, read what the Bible says.

I agree about the over-allegorizatinio, but then there are those who ignore the spiritual realities. This is why they can point to the secular nation of Israel put there via the United Nations and say that is the Israel of Romans 9:6 when it is not.

Graftedgentile said...

You do believe in the Sovereignty of God,as do I. Nothing happens by chance, and nothing happens without Gods purpose. God is a nation builder, and He is a nation destroyer.
The people that live in Israel right now were put there by a Sovereign God, and however he moves mankind to bring about His Will is Gods choosing.
It amazes me how 100 years ago nobody cared one iota about that little area of the world, save a few goat farmers. It was dusty and desolate,and now it has the entire world's attention.
Something else to consider is that if the people living in Israel left the land, their enemies would not be satisfied until they were exterminated. Also, with all do respect, I haven't been able to read all of your post's. Please bear with me...the "dominionist" follow a lot of the things that you are conveying here,God having been done with Israel..ect.
So what do we do with the last 5 chapters of Ezekiel?
Or when was Revelation 16:12 fulfilled?
Who knows when Jesus will return?
I think it will be sooner than later.
Blessing in Christ.

Bible Believer said...

Hey question that teaching that all nations are of God? The secular nation of Israel was established by the godless UN, you know how we have the Freemasons and Luciferians running the show here? Well same for the secular nation of Israel.

Read what is said about the secular nation of Israel here too..

All marked by the false Jewish star...hexagram and inverted hexagram.

You are right nations fall and rise and come under judgement too, but look at the big picture are HOLY MEN running our nations now? If you know about the new world order, you know that answer is NO. The prophecies about Israel are coming true, but separate spiritual Israel from the secular state set up by the United Nations in 1948.

Yes there is evil on the side where Jews have been under attack and from Islamic nations that preach of destroying Israel, but it does sound like you follow the precepts of Christian Zionism. I remember it took me time to even see through what they were teaching. They exploit what should be a Christian's true love and concern for the Jewish people [and others as well] to come to Jesus Christ.

Please read more of the Dominionist threads, it took me time to study and learn these things and there is always more for all of us to study and be shown by God.

Bad times are coming to Israel according to Bible prophecy. Remember in my Christian Zionist article I talk about that why do these Christian Zionists tell Jews to move back to Israel when they know in scripture what is coming?

What about the earlier part of Ezekiel?

7Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;

8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

9And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

The way some of these Christian Zionists act, they seem to think Israel is this HOLY CHRISTIAN nation or something. Today. What is sad, is those who tell the Jews they do not need Jesus Christ to be saved like John Hagee.

I am not a preterist, Revelation 16:2 is still to come. The signs are here NOW. Cashless society, etc I have warned about RFID chips and tattoos or whatever system they may choose.

I think we are close to Jesus Christ's return but before then will be the man of perdition and the Trib.

Anonymous said...

How do you conclude that any of the Bride of Christ will survive the GT? Where does the Bible ever support a wholesale slaughter of the Body of Christ? And that is what certainly will happen either by the AC or cataclymic events.

The only ones that will be supernaturally protected by God will be the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. With all due respect, this sounds like echoes of the likes of Dave MacPherson.

Graftedgentile said...

Bible Believer....
Thanks for your insightful response.
I can see that we are much alike in our thinking/understanding.
I do make a distinction between national Israel and Gods elect. I do not, nor have I ever like those of the "John Hagee" ilk. I have to say that after years of being on either side of all these various eschatalogical views, I'm finding my self more and more a "pre" everything. Pretrib,premill...ect.
It is plain to me that Daniels 70th week is yet to come and that God will start that week at the end of the age of the Gentiles,when the fullness of them comes in.
I happened upon your blog in a round about way. Via Ephesians5:11blog.
Love Chris Rosebrough and have been reading fanatic4jesus for awhile, although none of us agree 100% on every view, I know that we can agree that Jesus is the Messiah, God come in the flesh and that He will return in like manner as He ascended to the right hand of the Father,in clouds of Glory with His thousands.
I will get to the blog posts that you gave in response, and thanks again.
He is risen!

onesimus said...

onesimus said...
Read a little of the Millennial topic post. About the Jesus before Pilate quote, you might look up the greek word for "world", that might shed some light on the subject, from what I remember it does not mean earth, more like realm or "not from here"...context is
critical for a scriptural for 1000 years, the old
testement is a good place to start...finishing up with Rev. chap. 20. We all need to read carefully and closely what the scriptures say in CONTEXT...I personally do not use such words as
premellinial or postm,or amell...
or rapture unless they appear in my
english translation of my Bibles KJV, NASB,or NKJV (these I use the most).Would like to add more but I
might bore so I leave the floor.
mahalo and aloha.

Bible Believer said...

Isn't Dave McPherson, a Church of Christ Preterist? At least one I saw online was. I am not a preterist who says Revelation already happened. I try to avoid the labels and read if for what it says.

As for the Christians going through the Trib...

Matt 21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Why would those days be shortened unless some of the elect were still on earth?

If "we are not here" why does Jesus Christ issue this warning? Of course some of this persecution has happened earlier in history but remember in Matt 24, Jesus is referring to the last days, rumors of war, etc...

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Bible Believer said...


Thanks for your nice response, yes even if we do not agree on every eschatological issue, we can recognize fellow believers. I am glad you do make a distinction between national "secular" Israel and God's elect and see through John Hagee. We won't agree on premill etc, but I am just asking questions here, getting people to think things out. It took me time to even depart from premill/pretrib views.

Bible Believer said...


Understand avoiding the words, how much is defined from the outside but meant to skew. We have to read God's Word for what it says. I'll look up the greek on that word. Yes with the context, remember the warnings to love not this world etc. Christians need to realize the Bible even warns of "those who will destroy the earth", one's hope needs to be in Jesus Christ and heaven not "here".

ouch said...

When I see pretty little laid out time tables of the Last Days I want to suddenly have a bonfire and roast some marsh mellows! One does not have to be a preterist to question those charts. Reading through Daniel 7-12 would help in discerning whether or not the "saints" will be persecuted, tried, and yes--put to death. If a Christian is slaughtered for his faith that doesn't make God less of an omnipotent,SOVEREIGN, and HOLY God. I think putting God in a tiny little box with a chart and bullet points is lessening God. If God is the same, today, yesterday, and forever then why is it so hard to believe that God would allow suffering and punishment to refine His bride? Or is the church of today really saying, It's okay for the Jews to be exterminated but not the regenerate born again believers? Weird how the same people who want to escape persecution want to bomb millions of lost Muslims in pre-emptive strikes to avoid a war (Exekiel 38 & 39) that God says will happen and to which He says He will protect Israel!

Bible Believer said...

What I don't get is all the people who say Christians will escape all persecution, aka the rapture, and cry out why do you think God is going to give wrath to his people when all you have to do is go read some news, to know there are people dying today for the gospel, so I DO NOT GET IT. I agree about the people who want to send bombs.

antuan barnes said...

That. Is well said analogical thinking of the word tell us by searching. That he will save us through the tribulation.So the time factor is bogous in its entirety.

John OKeefe said...

Satan is allowed to deceive the children who are born to the Millennials...

We are depraved from birth. All have sinned... In Adam all possess a depraved nature and even while Christ Himself lives inside of us, we can and do follow our sinful un-redeemed flesh at times. So if we can violate the Holy Spirit Who is as Gal 2:20 states Christ inside of each one of us then I suppose that being a child who is born with a sin nature even in the Millennium isn't to difficult to reconcile.

Anonymous said...

Bible Believer, please clarify.

Are you saying you don't believe there will be a Milennial kingdom rule of Jesus Christ before the creation of a new heaven and new earth or are you saying you don't believe in a Millennial kingdom at all?

I know the Dispensational teaching is that on this present corrupt earth, Jesus Christ will set up his kingdom. This opens the door for the Antichrist to set up his kingdom. It is also blatantly unscriptural because the Bible explains what will happen when Jesus returns.

But what about after Jesus Christ returns for his saints and destroys the current earth and heavens? What about a Millennial reign then?

David Severy said...

From your blog:

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


"My kingdom is not of THIS world: if my kingdom were of THIS world..."

When Christ returns the world as we know it will not remain intact. IT WILL BE GREATLY CHANGE to THAT world of the millennial Messianic Kingdom.

Anonymous said...

Paul said "to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace". he also addressed believers as "the Israel of God". I look forward to the "heavenly Jerusalem", not an earthly kingdom of any sort. Didn't Jesus say he was preparing a place for us? I do not believe that place is on earth.....James

bong said...

You do remember the fall of Adam and Eve right? God is in control of everything but he allowed Even Satan, Adam and Eve to make their choices (rebel) because in the end we are not robots. So if God way back then allowed the fall to happen should we blame God for the mistakes that Adam, Eve and Satan made? Of course not.
So is the same when the Lord Jesus Rules in his Millennial Kingdom, if some people rebel, that is NOT the fault of Jesus. After the final rebellion, God is going to establish a new heart for his people where His Kingdom will be established which will end rebellion (sin) thus the end of the Millenial Kingdom and beginning of another.
The part of Revelations dealing with the return of Jesus and His millennial kingdom is very very clear and just because it does not agree with our own personal interpretations doesnt make it invalid. We have to examine ourselves very closely and find where our pride is getting in the way.