Saturday, February 18, 2012

RE: The Daughter Protestant Article: Distinctions I Want to Make

The Protestant daughters article brought a lot of comments and emails. Some were upset while others liked the article.  One thing I want to ask people to question is their definition of church. Focusing on the organized church 'system', the building, the human organizations it is easy to get sidetracked.  This is a distinction new Christians face.  For me there is a vast difference between the visible 'organized' churches and their branches, and the church or ekklesia that exists of all believers who are those who have been born again in Jesus Christ.

In other words, those who are believers in Jesus Christ, are "the church". "We [those who are in Jesus Christ] are the church" [or rather the ekklesia]. Jesus Christ preached that whenever two or three were gathered in his name, He was there. Matt 18:20 What should matter the most a Christian, is if someone is born again, are they a fellow Christian? Now this isn't the blurring of the lines, the emergents or ecumenicals are going after, where they desire unity of all the false churches,  but discerning who is a fellow believer that truly loves Jesus Christ. I have met a few in different types of churches. Ekklesia means "the called out ones', what are we being called out of? Think about that one.

One thing I want to challenge those who are new to this type of thinking is to think outside the institutional church box. There was a time when I had to do the SAME. This blog if anything has shown how corrupt the church system has become and how tied it is into the world system, of both religious and political Babylon. The false church system became corrupt from very early on. The book of Acts even warns about grievous wolves RIGHT at that TIME. To me some of those wolves are those honored church fathers who brought in false teachings of Rome like Ignatius of Antioch backing up the clergy system. Who knows what's a forgery or what is not? Even the academics quibble over what is "spurious" [fake] or not. All I know is none of this stuff matches the Bible. Click to enlarge.

I have studied some of their writings, and found most opposite to scripture and setting up things for later deception. What can sum up the teachings of most early church fathers, but the NICOLAITANS. . It's all about elevating man and a CLERGY SYSTEM.

Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

I could write  individual articles talking about the false teachings of Ignatius, Origen, Clement and a whole bunch of them, but given time and space, have not. Anyhow I have read this stuff years ago, even though a lot caused my eyes to droop in boredom and it was hard going. I knew God wanted me to at least know the basic truth about these guys, so the "church history" message would not deceive me as I have seen it do so with many intellectually driven types who let man's history fool them over God's Word.

In paraphrased form, this is basically what is written in the above...and elsewhere.

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your Clergy too, as you would Apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command from God. Make sure no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is present, we have the Catholic Church. Nor is it permissable to conduct baptism or the Eucharist without the bishop. On the other hand, whatever does have this sanction can be sure of God’s approval too. This is the way to make certain of soundness and validity of anything you do.”

If one keeps their scripture thinking cap on, they can figure out quick they are dealing with early wolves and deceivers. Here is one quote I found years ago...

"VIII. I therefore have done my own part as a man perfectly established in union. But where there is division and wrath, God dwells not. Therefore the Lord forgives all that repent, if on their repentance they turn to the unity of God and the council of the bishop. I believe in the grace of Jesus Christ, Who shall loose from off you every bond.[1] Moreover, I entreat you, act not in any matter in the spirit of faction, but as disciples of Christ. For I have heard some saying, 'Except I find it in the archives {SCRIPTURES} [2] I believe it not in the Gospel.' And when I said to them, 'It is written,'[3] they answered me, 'That is the question in dispute.' But my archives[4] are Jesus Christ; the inviolable"

Does that saying sound familiar? Keep this in mind...

We were told to search scriptures to see if things were so, and Ignatius did not like that oviously claiming he was going straight to the source "jesus" while ignoring scripture. Where have we heard that before but from Rome itself?

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Here is something written in the same document, Rome loved this one obviously:

"VII. For even if after the flesh some wished to lead me astray, yet the Spirit is not deceived since it is from God. For it knoweth whence it cometh and whither it goeth,[2] and it convicts the things which are in secret. I cried aloud, when I was among you,[3] I spake with a loud voice, with the voice of God, 'Give heed unto the bishop and the presbytery and deacons.' But they suspected[4] that I said this because I knew beforehand the division caused by some;[5] yet He is my witness, Whose prisoner I am, that I learned it not from human flesh. But it was the Spirit[6] Who kept preaching in these words: 'Do nothing without the bishop. Keep your flesh as a shrine of God. Love union. Flee divisions. Become followers of Jesus Christ as He also was of the Father.'"

This blog is named after one of my favorite chapters in the Bible:

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Never trust those who always want to be in charge, and do not see themselves as servants to the flock. We see the modern examples today with all the "leadership' conferences, shepherding movement and rest.

Once I told a church, I liked, I would not sign a membership book, I said being written into the book of life was the only "membership" that counted.

Phl 4:3    And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.

With INDIVIDUALS what matters is, whether they have been born again and regenerated via the Holy Spirit. Of course if they keep sitting in a pew where truth is not preached and where there is no love of God's Word, that shows bad fruit and lack of God-given discernment.

Sadly many look at the organized church system as determining who is a Christian or not. That is not who or what determines it. God does.  Think outside of the organized church box!

Remember too here, the deceived and deceiving will try to water down things telling you, "oh everyone is a Christian who SAYS they are or even just uses the name "jesus". The Emergents even use and abuse the word ekklesia seeking to round up everyone as fellow "christians" who has ever said the name "jesus" pondering nothing in scripture. One needs to discern between God drawn boundaries and false human "unity" boundaries.

While I know there are still some fellow believers in the churches, though more have had to leave because of churches falling away or are "scattered sheep" like myself,  I define "church" differently.  I consider the system of false authority where one man runs the show and where a skewed version of OT tithing is promoted to have gone off the rails long ago. Church councils, and men elevating themselves and lording over others and early church fathers, I believe were all distractions. If you follow Augustine, [name other early church father here] while there are those who are sincere, I believe you already have been misled. If your church follows a creed, that is where a lot of the trouble started instead of sticking to God's Word. Human organizations are "imperfect" surely, but one thing that bothers me of late, is those who use that as an excuse to play cover up for churches that have essentially fallen away and no longer stick to God's Word but have incorporated themselves into the NWO agenda and who are without reservation part of the globalist Mystery Babylon system. Were there born again believers in the churches of the Reformation? Sure there was as the Reformation brought God's Word back into people's hands. But one needs to think outside the organized/institutional church boxes.

I know for some, stating that all these branches of the denominations just about is tied to Rome is hard information to hear. It was hard to face this myself, as I searched among the churches for fellow believers. There are some fundamentalist and other churches and exceptions who go with God's Word, but even in the Baptist system, and I'll say this as someone who was happily in an IFB church for some years, even most of the Baptist churches are hooked into Rome. Hard stuff to face but it's true. The World Baptist Alliance represents the majority of baptist denominations out there and has been working with Rome as well. Don't forget Rick Warren is technically a baptist. The SBC while refusing some blatant ecumenical ties, definitely is tied into some dubious political and other agendas that originate in Rome. Where do you all think Dominionism really comes from when you get right down to it? Writing over 40 articles, it all traces back to Rome, and it makes sense why there are so many Knights of Malta types driving that bus. 

The apostles warned over and over of the false church to come and of the great falling away, and these things began early on...

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Think about this too, is it an accident that all the errors, trace back to Rome? No it is not.

Where is the EKKLESIA? If you are a Christian, that is your true Christian family.


Carlos said...

Reading 1 Timothy doesn't hurt... This goes out to everybody. The main reason we have false churches, false teachers, and false Christians is the failure to make Jesus #1 in your life. If one studies the word of God everyday such as your life depended on it, then you will know the truth, and the truth will set anybody free regardless of where you are. Reading the word of God has set many free who were in a false church system, and it has kept the genuine running strong. My dad told me to not spend so much time and dedication studying up on false teachers, but to spend most of my time reading the actual word. Today many of these modern day pastors spend more time reading books from other pastors, and worse, other none believers and little do they realize that they have fallen for some destructive, candy coated heresy. If Catholics would actually spend some time reading the Bible they too would notice that something is wrong in their religion that does not line up with the teaching of the Bible, such as the 1st commandment. Ignorance, and lack of focus will bring down anybody, and full dedication to God via His word, will set anybody free from the false.

John 8:36 King James Version (KJV)

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Psalm 119:105 King James Version (KJV)

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

No excuses, The Bible has been readily available for the past 400 years. Heaven and salvation are for those who made Jesus their LORD and SAVIOR, and that means He's #1 in your life, not #2.

Abbey said...

I agree wholeheartedly Bible Believer. I've read some of the writings of several so-called "early church fathers" and much of what they wrote is Catholic to the core. As we know, wolves came in almost immediately as Scripture tells us. Considering the nefarious deeds of the "Church of Rome", I often wonder how much of church history and writings have been changed to corroborate the teachings of Catholicism. History records that the Church of Rome hunted down and massacred certain groups of true believers AND destroyed as much of their writings that they could get their hands on. Some of what I read that supposedly came from early Christian leaders sounded contrived to me. The style and choice of words seemed eerily familiar as if written by the Apostle Paul but with Catholic beliefs/teachings peppered in. Copycat writings? I don't trust them. Most of us would love to know the true history of Christianity but other than what is written in the Bible, I think much of what's recorded has been skewed.

I concur with you concerning the writings of Ignatius and others that you quoted. Yes, I would add Augustine to the list. They quote Scripture in their writings mostly to twist it to try and "prove" what they teach. It's unmistakable what agenda is being pushed; the bishop (future popes) is to be obeyed otherwise the wrath of God is incurred since he is the equivalent of God on earth, reverence (putting them on a pedestal above other believers) of the "clergy", unity with the church otherwise more threats of damnation, the "bread of the altar"/Eucharist, and unity, unity, unity (or else watch out).

I agree Bible Believer and Carlos, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit must be our only guide.

Joy said...

Here is a question: What do you do with children? (regarding attending church services)

My background: Grew up in church, but not real pleased with what I am seeing. Husband did not grow up in church (accepted Christ at 19), and the ritual seems extremely foriegn and unnessasary to him. He has rarely attended for the past eight years. I have faithfully taken our children, and taught them from God's word at home. My husband would like me to stop going because of some of the issues mentioned on this blog, and some because he sees it as a waste of time. He does not teach our children about God, but is glad that I do. I have usually skipped the service and joined adult Sunday school classes where we could pray for one another and discuss and apply the scripture to our lives. Now there are still Sunday school classes, but no praying for each others needs or time to get to know each other. They are classes with an agenda, outline, and very little patience for anyone who questions the teacher.

At this time, I have continued to attend for the sake of the children. I have told my husband that I agree with him, but I am not willing at this time to give up the church building unless we have something to replace it with.

I want our four children to grow up in a community of believers. I want them to know that God and the church are important to us. I want to give them a solid foundation of truth, but keep them innocent of the organizational church's problems while they are young. I want them to grow up and marry believers.

Ant advice or different perspectives?

Anonymous said...


Joy, I also have the problem of what to do with the children in mind. I've stopped attending regularly because every time I do attend, I hear something on contemplative prayer, readings from The Message "Bible", catholic saints and fathers being quoted, or the new leaders that I don't agree with being quoted or using their books, like Rick Warren, Francis Chan, Beth Moore. What am I to do? My husband still attends with our 17 year-old, and he thinks I'm setting a bad example, but he has also told me that I need to find somewhere else to attend and that he thinks I should no longer go with him to our church because I always find something to "complain" (his word) about.

The whole thing just kills me inside. I do not feel I'm making a wrong choice by refusing to soak in the teachings of our church when they are becoming part of the emergent church. I refuse to sit under pastors who do not protect the flock. My husband sees it differently. I don't want any deception and if my pastor has lost my confidence, then where do you go from there?

I think all we can do is make a point to communicate with our children so they do not see us as being rebellious. I don't feel that I am - at all. I simply want a more Bible-based church and not one that's trying to keep up with others in the "christian" world. It's difficult because I agree I want to be with a group of believers, but my husband will not leave, so am I to go somewhere alone?

I think God will give us people around us who are believers that can play a part in our lives. Possibly neighbors who want to start a Bible study group, or co-workers, or others from the community. Where are all the people that are leaving the churches? I'd like to know how to find them. No church is perfect, but once they start down that path of some wrong teachings, should you stay for the good parts and accept the bad, or do you get out of there? I think Peter or Paul would tell us to leave them because they are not protecting the believers entrusted to them?

Joy said...

I may get to where you are, Labby, but my oldest is almost eight, and so I just don't think they are ready to understand how corrupt the world is. I pray that I will be a mother like Hannah was to Samuel, like Jochobed was to Moses, and like Daniel's mother was. I hope for them to know God and his word well enough that they will choose him, whatever the world does, and wherever they are. I have been thinking about a lot of deeper issues since I was diagnosed with cancer three months ago. My prognosis is good, but still got me thinking.

Labby, I am sorry about the differences between you and your husband. Are there any small group studies during the same time period as the service? Up until recently, that worked for me. You could go with them and read your Bible in the car and still try to make Sundays a good family day and and a day of worship and prayer.

Bible Believer said...

Hi Carlos. I know I think the same too, why aren't people reading God's Word and where is the loyalty to Jesus Christ. Even yesterday as I watched some people with the ashes on their forehead, I asked why don't they read what is in the Bible?
The Bible warns of deceivers over and over, Ephesians 5:6, let no man deceive you.

One needs to be studying God's Word all the time. A Christian who loves Jesus Christ, will DESIRE too.
Reading scripture sent me free from Rome! I knew no Christians [had been witnessed to by some when younger], but it is His Word that set me free too.

I do think some are called to expose the false teachers. There are many who will tell Christians, do not expose them, and sadly Carlos that is why so many Christians are sitting in pews now learning lies. When I began doing this stuff, even exposing just Rome, many told me "don't focus on the false teachers". That leaves people in a fog. I know doing a blog like this is NOT for everyone, there are people who will be called to other things for God. I do have to take my own time with God. So I have to admit, while your father probably meant well, I do not agree with that stance. He is right about keeping in God's Word though, and sadly many of the preachers are reading the works of other men and being trained at their endless conferences.

Bible Believer said...

Abby when I was first out of the RCC,[well second time out] and doing online message board stuff, I had endless Catholics and Protestants tell me to go read the early church fathers for truth. I just found things over and over that contradicted God's Word with the endless theme of blind obedience to clerical authority. It is all Catholic to the core. All those Protestants who look to Rome's councils and their ecfs, forgeries and all have been duped even if they like to claim Rome misinterpreted the specific early church father. Yes the wolves came in right away, they were there at the time of the apostles, like Simon Magus. With these writings there are tons of forgeries, even Roman Catholics scholars admit some are "superious" of dubious origin. Why study any of it? Seriously.

Thanks for bringing up the point about how Rome hunted down the true Christians and their groups. That applies to the "winners" write the history and well Rome wrote it. They knew what they were doing to fool people.You are right about the basics that are pushed, blind obedience to clergy, especially Pope as 'god's representative on earth", Eucharist and unity, unity, unity. Same now as it was then.

Bible Believer said...

I know with children it is tough. I know Christians who have home-schooled and they have focused on having church at home, or forming a housechurch with like minded believers. Some Christians do make the choice, to not attend services[looks like you are doing that] but send children or even themselves to other gatherings that may have Christians, bible studies, bible camps etc. There you have to be careful. I did even some months back tried to visit a baptist church [not IFB] and it was so far gone, I couldn't even be there for dinners or 'social happenings". Pray to God continously about where He wants you to be and as well too pretaining to the children as well.

With churches, you have to discern. Is the preacher true? Are there fellow born again believers? Is the church bible believing? If one stays in a false church the influence on the children who can not discern more subtle things, they can be misled. Some may fully embrace worldly Christianity seeing their parents as then the "wrong ones"so it is somewhere where you have to tread carefully. I know leaving the churches is not without a loss.

Bible Believer said...

his may be a question I do not have all the answers to since in my own life. I know personally it is not easy to have a church or a set group of believers. Socially it can be very very hard. I am facing that now, living in a community where I cannot find a church or a housechurch. With children I know this has to be even tougher. God has His reasons to put us all in different places. Even this week, I called having found an "independent"church hoping it would be a possibility, to talk to a pastor who while he was against "the one world religion", the church was FULL GOSPEL, basically Pentecostal and they speak in tongues, he said to me, "We rock out" I knew then it wasn't for me at that point. So it can get tough, I know it. Some of us do think things out, what will the years without a local body of believers do to us? I even wanted to move back to my former community but was unable to make it happen. Even then the church is now very small, economic forces etc. I know even formerly good churches are now falling away too. Hope that one is OK still, am praying for them. I would focus on God's Word at home and involve your husband in that if you can. Even if he could read God's Word to them and have you all pray together as a family. That is important they have him too as an example. I know what you mean about the Sunday school classes, many are regimented. I even went to a bible study hoping it would be just believers together, but it was all totally directed by the pastor, and was like another sermon, the only discussion allowed was when he asked the questions. That is one thing with the false churches, they are not allowed for a lot of spontaneous anymore. I think about even the weird Jim Jones 'do not criticize the pastor"rules at that baptist church I went to and shudder. God will let you know too when you are in a good place or not. Once at that baptist church, I asked one of the deacons, what he thought of people who were leaving the churches, and about their concerns. He said right to me, and this man was polite and kind type, "They are trouble-makers!"Full and Simple!" I kind of knew I was out of my element. I understand your concerns. I am facing some of my own. I would pray to ask God in helping you know if keeping them in that particular church is a good thing. If the church is teaching untruths though, ecumenical, Rick Warren, etc. Then God's commandment is right in scripture, Rev 18, that includes taking one's children out as well. My biggest concern for children, is the false religious leaders know what they are doing when it comes to influencing them.

Steve Simms said...

Excellent points! Check out the book: "Beyond Church: An Invitation To Experience The Lost Word Of The Bible, Ekklesia," available in paperback and Kindle on Amazon at: