Tuesday, February 14, 2012

The Daughters: Protestant Churches #1: Altars and Pseudo-Masses

Why does the Bible warn us of the harlot's daughters?


One thing in facing the church system and mainline churches is realizing how many of the traditions of Rome they have held on to. Once someone studies the Bible, prayers and learns God's Word, recognizing these traditions is something that can sometimes take time, but will be something the Holy Spirit will convict you of. While many people in mainline and other Protestant churches are well-meaning and you will meet those who truly seek after God or even a few who are saved, one very sad thing, is how many are caught in false churches that teach the traditions of men, and so many are rooted in Roman Catholicism.

One thing the Reformation was a work of God to bring His Word to the people but I know even there while people entered into MORE TRUTHS, some false things were kept and that includes these traditions, and more that began in Rome.

I am not a Protestant. Protestant is an interesting term coined by Rome, why did any Christian even call themselves that, as it is like the name of a rebellious teenager against Momma Rome, who "protests". 

With this series of articles I am going to begin my exploration of these traditions that match Romes. This first article deals with the ALTARS present in these churches. 

How many pseudo-Catholic MASSES are being done on ALTARS?

Lutheran Service

Episcopal Service

Presbyterians at an ecumenical meet up


Lutheran Altars,

The altar is the most important article of furniture of the church. It is the focal point of every service, and for that reason it is placed on the highest level of the church proper. Indeed the altar represents the REASON for the church in which it stands. The use of altars goes back to prehistoric times, and was apparently ordained of God because of its universal use in religious rites.

The Lutheran altar has a deep and solemn meaning. It is symbolic of the extreme sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross for the atonement of our sins. It is representative of the Throne of God. It is before the altar that God renews his covenant of the atonement and the forgiveness of sins when we truly partake of the precious body and blood of Christ in the Sacrament of the Holy Communion.

Lutheran Altar:

Episcopal Altar

A Presbyterian "communion table"

We don't have altars in the Reformed tradition, but this is the communion table of Shadyside Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh, PA, with Rudolf Scheffler's mosaic of the Transfigured Christ above and behind.

Well I am glad some of them have figured out why ALTARS are false but it's kind of elevated for a mere table.

United Methodist Altar 

Even the Baptists have the ALTAR CALL where people are called up to the front of the church to be "saved", this is often done in churches, even where there is no altar or a table that is put down on a lower level. 

And recall that the Orthodox, even have their rood screens to screen off the laity as a replica of the Jewish Temple and have altars themselves.


And yes, altars are all over the New Testament and one is discussed in heaven, but why is one needed in churches?

Remember altars are for sacrifices, they are for instituting sacraments. 

Dictionary.com defines an altar thusly:

an elevated place or structure, as a mound or platform, at which religious rites are performed or on which sacrifices are offered to gods, ancestors, etc.

However: Jesus Christ's ONE TIME SACRIFICE IS FINISHED. Hebrews 13:10, speaks of Jesus it does not speak of a special stone table to do sacrifices on or a Eucharist ritual.

Hebrews 13:10-16

King James Version (KJV)

10We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

One thing too in the early Christian church and the book of Acts, do they ever detail the apostles doing rituals on an altar? They do not. There are many verses about the Lord's Supper being a shared meal together.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

I doubt there was an altar in all these homes....

Some of these churches you can attend and I have been in the Episcopal, United Methodist, and other churches and some even have services that even very closely match the Catholic Mass. When I visited an Episcopal church in my youth with a friend it basically was the same thing. So while some of these churches may deny aspects of Catholicism, denying transubstantiation defined as Rome does it, many have a watered down version of it. One of these false traditions definitely is a variation on the Roman Catholic Eucharist. Think about this, that is the theological foundation as to where the RCCLutheranism:

As someone who has spent all 47 years of my life in Lutheran churches, I am very familiar with Martin Luther's complex teaching regarding the Lord's Supper. I have seen plenty of people over the years struggle to grasp his puzzling perspective that Christ's literal body and blood are located "in, with and under" the bread and wine. Luther's highly nuanced description of communion 500 years ago was a curious twist on the Roman Catholic position. [snip]
Amidst the many chains which fell off Martin Luther when he placed his faith in Christ alone, he couldn't seem to shake loose of his Catholic obsession with the communion elements. You won't find this obsession in the teaching of our Lord or His apostles.   
While this author disagrees with these teachings,  obviously this shows us vestiges of Catholic teachings are right there.

People are still looking to men, Wesley, Luther, Calvin, Menno instead of to God. [MORE PRIESTS EXCEPT THIS TIME ONES WHO DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES FATHERS]

Looking to more earthly hierarchies  instead of to Jesus Christ.

Let me ask you what do you think the blind man meant when he said in

"Mark 8:24

And he looked up, and said, "I see men as trees, walking."

To me this is a warning right there in the Bible...[think about the Mustard Tree here, and how it grew so big] Why is he seeing men walking as TREES?

Jesus put his hands on the blind man's eyes to heal him and he looked up...[looking up to God]

"22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.

23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

25 After that he put [his] hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly."

Remember what I warned about the MUSTARD TREE...

well, most Protestant churches are "BRANCHES".

Just about Every denomination NAMED after a MAN


and others like

Stone-Campbell, Swedenborgian, or METHODS from a man-METHODISM....etc.

Something to think about.

I want to know why so many kept the altar?

Did you know in the Old Testament, these kind of altars were FORBIDDEN?

Exodus 20:22-26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Hmmm up some stairs, elevated, cut marble--hewn stone.

So God forbid hewn, carved, sculpted stone, and now we have these elaborate altars most often made of stone in the RCC and the daughter churches as well.

Lutheran altar and pulpit:

Here this is about elevating man, even with the high on pulpits seeking to add the things of man. Even in the Old Testament, the priests in the Jewish Temple were to use un-worked stone for their animal blood sacrifices. Now with the altars in the Roman Catholic church, we have elevated altars, worked stone, everything even against what the OT dictated and now of course the blasphemy against Jesus Christ of "confecting" the Catholic wafer and supposedly bringing "jesus" down to be 're-sacrificed' with Catholic people literally being told to believe they are eating the literal body and blood of "jesus" in their Eucharist wafers. Even if some of the teachings differ, why are so many Protestant churches doing things the SAME WAY with ALTARS INCLUDED? Don't forget World Communion Sunday

So what about the daughters who also stick to "sacraments", even the Presbyterians. Remember even  the United Methodist's use the word EUCHARIST.

So why all the ALTARS?

To me it is a sign of a daughter church. And shouldn't we tell the truth to people in these churches?


Anonymous said...


All I can say at first is, Oh boy, what if my husband catches a glimpse of this post!! He already is so angry with me about the Catholics (especially since I just finished reading 50 Years In the Church of Rome), and now that pic of the Pope! Haha, he's going to have a meltdown.

You make a good point, though, one that I've never thought of, so off to think...

Bible Believer said...

is your husband still in the Catholic church? I forget what you told me Labby, sorry. I know some Lutherans myself and they are nice people, one I told her the Eucharist is from Rome, and she seems open to the truth, so please pray. Others of course would not like a post like this but we need to tell people the truth even if is hard truths.

Bible Believer said...

Oh one thing I didn't make the picture found it elsewhere. I wish I could do the photoshop thing. if anyone knows what program is best, please suggest.

LutherRocks said...

I'm Lutheran and have to take exception to inferences. You are painting with broad strokes. Symbols(like altars), at least in my church are not compulsory. Lord's Supper is celebrated like it was in the early church; even Paul acknowledges it when he rebukes one of the early churches for abusing it. Luther did not throw the baby out with the bathwater...he reformed much of church practice since much of the doctrine was wrong. He also detested the idea of his followers being called Lutherans.

Anonymous said...

its GOD'S HOUSE, we are to honor HIM, wow your satanic side is really showing with this post, you seek to destroy churches plain and simple, it will bring in the NWO one world religion quicker if ya just got rid of these pesky churches and peoples loyalty to them ...

Well guess what ??? FAIL ... the public fed with a steady stream of your constant HATE for the apostate churches, instead of love, and trying to help them, had rejected this experiment, this psyops, out of hand, and can now see you as the agent provocateur you are, YOU HATE CHRIST and are a CHRIST DENIER, God is sovereign, how the hell do ya think we all got saved???
did we enter a perfect church hermetically sealed for our sanitary protection??? NO IDIOT
we went to imperfect churches run by imperfect FALLIBLE humans and guess what?


Bible Believer said...

Looks like I got someone angry. When did I ever say a church has to be perfect? and the people in the pews, did you even read the article? I do not blame or hate THEM. Many of the lower level clergy are deceived themselves too as well. I sat in the pews of false churches MYSELF. How am I going to "destroy" churches with a small website?

All I am doing is questioning the false traditions and especially those churches with OFFICIAL ecumenical ties to Rome and the NWO. There are some break-away Protestant churches even among Lutherans and Presbyterians who recognize the Pope as the Antichrist and aren't part of Rome's ecumenical movement but who IMO have kept some false traditions. I guess we do differ on our opinions regarding the organized church system.

I knew this article was going to be controversial. I am an ordinary person, not a psych-op, or a agent provcateur, I know rare in this day....but I have along the way, know that many many people will get very angry when the Protestant and even evangelical church system is questioned. This is nothing knew for me. I've been on message boards where to question those things earned an instant banning. It is interesting to me how some things earn such instant ire.

As for the hewn altars--and the false traditions, Sure people can hear some truth in a Protestant church where did I say that they won't? I'll repeat myself here: "One thing the Reformation was a work of God to bring His Word to the people but I know even there while people entered into MORE TRUTHS, some false things were kept and that includes these traditions, and more that began in Rome."

Do you disagree with that conjecture, that NO FALSE TRADITIONS were INHERITED ?

I know facing these false traditions is not easy. There are many Christians who know having an altar by God's Word is not right. Why did I realize when I was newly saved to avoid mainline liturgical churches that kept vestiges of the Mass?

As for the "imperfect" churches, how many are joined with the NWO? Are you trying to tell me they are NOT on the higher levels?

There are dozens of articles that I have written on this blog that shows their definite connections. With the mainline and liturgicals, the MAJORITY of them are represented everytime I refer to the WCC, or NCC. The WCC is joined definitely with the Vatican.

You going to ignore all that. Why did God give us this warning then? Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. and since this is addressed to "my people" yes some of God's people are still in the church system. Ergo one of the reasons I wrote this article to WARN THEM.

Two rules I have for any would be church I would be part of is NOT part of the ecumenical or World Christian movement and 2. Of course they must preach God's Word. #1 wipes out 99% of them. There are a few Protestant holdouts, who are not in the ecumenical system but have inherited a few of the false traditions.

As for God growing that seed. Don't you remember what I wrote about the Mustard Tree. Many are deceived thinking the mustard tree is a good thing...


Bible Believer said...

correction above, knew equals new....

Bible Believer said...

I wanted to address this...

"it will bring in the NWO one world religion quicker if ya just got rid of these pesky churches and peoples loyalty to them ..."

If even Calvary Chapel is hooked into the NWO, as exposed by this blog and others, and there are churches here who haven't even been examined on this blog due to time shortage-such as Assembly of God and others, and the liturgical/mainline ones are all mostly via the WCC and NCC are tied to the Vatican and NWO and the churches are falling away as the Bible predicts, I hope people's first loyalty would be to God. Loyalty to the church system, is actually something to WARN AGAINST.

Bible Believer said...

Luther, I know there are Lutherans who even consider the Pope the Antichrist, the minority by far, but when one looks at the Lutheran service, it is obvious Luther retained much of the Catholic Mass, and while he did not preach out and out transubstantiation switched it to a more the mild form of “Consubstantiation”

Luther did bring a lot of truth in, against indulgences, Mary worship, follow the Pope, but sadly many traditions WERE kept.

Anonymous said...

I have a couple of non-connecting thoughts so I'll just write them out.

1. I never like to think that the entire "church" came from the Catholic church like the first picture shows. I'd like to think there were those that never embraced that which Rome taught, based on the fact that there were established churches in so many cities from the apostles - not just Rome.

2. If protestantism is also considered that which we need to come out of, it would be a bit of a stretch for me in my current thinking. I know there are errors, but if not the protestant church, then really where is the church, except for individuals? It's really a bit of a reach for me, although I am constantly overwhelmed by the deception even in those churches. Even the apostles established local churches which I always assumed was a more cohesive group and not just individuals. I do wonder if they had official buildings or not.

3. I know I have often spoken of my respect for the Brethren and Mennonites, in which I was raised. I've got to say that I've never seen anything in them or even remotely like in the above pictures. The churches are very plain, or meetinghouses as they're often called. Our church doesn't have an altar, and neither did the church of two before that we attended. The only use for the table in the front was for flowers or for a place to help serve communion by setting the bread and juice to ready for serving. You almost never see stained glass either. Usually plain pews, plain walls, with minimal decoration. Of course there are errors there, especially I've noticed with the emergent stuff. I know the Brethren, and our current Mennonite church we have regularly scheduled foot washing services. Our current Mennonite church does full-immersion baptism like the Brethren (dunkards), but many Mennonites sprinkle. I know there are deceptions creeping in everywhere, but those groups of anabaptists seem to maybe be the plainest and simplest among the denominations, and I like that. It reminds me of what the early church may have been like. The amish are really not a part of the Mennonites either, or from them or visa versa. That's a common misconception, although they do seem to dwell peacefully with each other nearby.

4. The above pictures also creep me out just a bit, some of them, but not nearly as much as those from the catholic church with all the statues and gold, etc. I actually usually have a tough time even being in one. I hate statues - so that starts my problems. haha

FYI my husband left the catholic church at age 19 when he became born again after reading a Bible a co-worker gave him. He spoke out so much against the catholic church that his own father wouldn't talk to him for two years. He gave them Chick tracts (if you can believe that!) I don't know what has happened recently as he really doesn't see any deception to speak of even among the Protestants. He thinks I'm looking for things to complain about. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The more I search/research, read and educate myself, the more upset it makes him.

Anonymous said...

One other thing too, about what the denominations call themselves. Don't you think part of the names has to do with what others called them? As in, hey those people over there in that town that are now following Luther - hence the name - those Lutherans. I doubt with many of these groups that the person who started the group actually had a mind to name the group after themselves.

Another example is the Dunkards, as the Brethren were called. They were known many places as the Dunkards, because they would immerse when baptizing.

I just don't want to throw protestants the way of catholics after all of the effort and persecution to get on the right path. I think some things evolve without being premeditated, like the names of the groups. It is good to simply be "a follower of Jesus Christ", but naturally we hook up with groups just for identifying purposes. Even the name "Christian" was something that was given to them, I believe. Just some random thoughts.

I thank you for your post, although it did make me feel uncomfortable, especially when calling them "daughter" churches. That makes me shudder, but I'm open-minded.

The house church idea may be the way to go. I think it's good to gather and fellowship together.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for writing this. You are correct and I see it too. Much of the organized church has vain traditions that directly contradict the word of God when you really study it. Thank you for all of your diligent work and for speaking the truth despite criticisms.

Bible Believer said...


1. There were those who refused to follow what Rome taught. Lothards, Waldensians--course today's modern Waldensians follow the Pope sadly and others. There even those Protestants now who recognize the harlot for what it is, but need to assess if any of the false traditions have entered their churches.

2. One needs to come out of any false church tied to Rome or that follows it's traditions. Most churches today are either tied in to Rome via the World Christian movement/Lausanne--that's the evangelical ones plus many others too or WCC/NCC or the ecumenical/interfaith movement.

3. The church exists in individuals, born again believers. Yes some are in the church system and there are churches, though rarer still separated from Rome and looking to God's Word to separate from false traditions and home churches as well. WE are the church, not the buildings or clergy members or the organized stuff. The ekkelsia. Considering that verse I posted about them going from house to house, I do not think they had buildings.
4. With the Brethern and Mennonites, I know you were raised that way, and there are probably even many saved people in those churches but sadly on the organizational level, many Mennonite churches are hooked into the Rome system.


ecumenical interfaith activities with Brethern member


Mennonites wanting to join ecumenical group with Catholicism "Christian Churches Together"


Then there is this...


[you know some of this stuff is hard for me to find out, just so you know and you wonder about those who have forgotten the lessons of history] Remember I have studied the interfaith/ecumenical lists for some time, there are very few not joining the false "christian unity" parade.

*"The Roman Catholic Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Mennonite World Conference met for the first time. The meeting was held in Strasbourg, France in 1998-OCT 1 to 18. Its title was "Toward a Healing of Memories." Mennonite representatives came from Canada, Congo, France, Germany, Guatemala, Netherlands, and the U.S.

Mennonites trace their history back to the Anabaptist movement which was one product of the Protestant Reformation. Mennonites stress "discipleship, community, and an ethic of love and nonresistance. Mennonites are historically distinctive in North America for simplicity of life and the rejection of military service, public office, and oaths." 1 A defining feature of the Anabaptist movement was their rejection of infant baptism as practiced by the Roman Catholic church and by the Lutheran movement. They baptized adult believers instead. The term "Anabaptist" comes from the Latin word "anabaptista" which means "one who is rebaptized." i.e. a person who was baptized first as an infant and later as an adult. It is a misnomer, because Anabaptists do not recognize infant baptism. It was originally used as a term of derision; but the name stuck.

Some Anabaptist faith groups have survived to the present day, including: Amish, Beachy and Brethren groups, Dunkards, Hutterites, Landmark Baptists, and Mennonites. Anabaptists were viciously persecuted during and following the Reformation. Many migrated to Poland and the Ukraine. Today they are mainly concentrated in Germany, France and North America. 2 They now total over 300,000 in the U.S. and Canada; additional Mennonites live elsewhere in the world."***

Bible Believer said...

I am familiar with Brethern churches too. I hvae a friend that grew up in the Brethern, and the church her family attended seem to be strong and Bible believing but now it is just like rest of apostate modern churches. Could there be some that are different? sure.

I know the Mennonites and Brethern avoided a lot of the false LITURGICAL traditions. So you are right about plain church furnishings, and perhaps just the use of an actual table not an altar. Still wonder why they are going ecumenical. I know we do not have to worry about the Old Order Amish going to hang out with the Pope but even they have held on to some false traditions too.
I am glad your husband left the Catholic church, yes when leaving the RCC you can lose friends and family. I have relatives who do not speak to me for being a Christian. I've given out tracts to some. That's actually why the one relative won't speak to me. That is too bad he does not see deception in the Protestant world. Well I have seen that, people leave Rome, and then well JUST STOP, and stay in whatever evangelical/Protestant church no matter what apostate stuff is going on.

Sure some of the names came about from what others called them. Luther may even had not liked having things named after him after Luther said, can believe that.

Agree about house churches.

Thank you last anonymous, this one was difficult, knew I'd get some heat over it, but there are many traditions in churches that did not come from God's Word. Thanks for your encouragement.

Carlos said...

Well in defense of Bible Believer, God does hate iniquity and all workers of iniquity and liars, and there are several stern warnings in the Bible starting with the prophets of old, Jesus, and then followed up by the Apostles to stay clear of false teachers, false churches, any person who is a heretic, and any person who denies Christ is an anti-Christ. Denying Christ does not need to be denying He exists, you could acknowledge Christ, yet deviate from the truth in any way shape or form, and this is denial of Christ. Also pretending to be Christ on earth, a replacement for Christ such as the Pope or any other false Christ is anti-Christ.

Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matt 7:15-20
Matt 24:24
Acts 20:29
Rom 16:17-18
Titus 3:10
2 Pet 2:1-3
2 Pet 2:18-20
2 John 1:9-11

1 John 2:18-20 King James Version (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

and Bible believer, don't let that person who called you a witch get to you. They called Jesus a devil how much more will they call his servants. Matt 10:25

Lisa Ruby said...

Anonymous wrote:

"its GOD'S HOUSE, we are to honor HIM, wow your satanic side is really showing with this post, you seek to destroy churches plain and simple, it will bring in the NWO one world religion quicker if ya just got rid of these pesky churches and peoples loyalty to them ..."

My reply:

The Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit. A building is not the temple of the Holy Spirit. Also, the Christian's body is to be presented to God as a living sacrifice. No sacrifices are to be offered to God via a altar.
Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

"Well guess what ??? FAIL ... the public fed with a steady stream of your constant HATE for the apostate churches, instead of love, and trying to help them, had rejected this experiment, this psyops, out of hand, and can now see you as the agent provocateur you are, YOU HATE CHRIST and are a CHRIST DENIER, God is sovereign, how the hell do ya think we all got saved???"

My reply:

The apostate church is NOT helping people come to the real Jesus -- the Jesus of the Bible. The use of an altar in churches is modeled after Roman Catholicism and is a deception. Many, many religious people consider themselves Christians and yet are conformed to this world. (The love of the Father is not in those who love the world) When confronted about their lack of abiding in the Vine (Jesus Christ) they will quickly cite the day they prayed at the "altar" and "accepted Christ." Man-made formula prayers uttered at man-made religious inventions called altars don't save anyone. Salvation is not an initiation ceremony performed at an altar. Salvation is deliverance from sin -- the love of sin, the power of sin, and the penalty of sin.

(This is not to say that a sincere calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation is invalid if done at an altar. My point is that this religious trapping is deceiving many people into thinking they have made a connection with God when in reality they have merely engaged in in a religious form.)

I think that those who are attending a gathering of believers (commonly known as a church service) need to know they can do business with God privately. They do not need to go up in front of those present in the meeting and kneel at an "altar" in order to pray or repent. I wonder how many have put off praying to God because they thought they were compelled to do so at an "altar."

Also, it is important to note that witches love "altar calls." This is the only time in the service where they can go up and "suddenly" lay hands on people (transfer spirits to them) and get away with it. Laying hands suddenly is not a scriptural practice -- indeed, scripture warns against doing so.

Anonymous wrote:

"did we enter a perfect church hermetically sealed for our sanitary protection??? NO IDIOT"

My reply:

Name-calling I see. The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Anonymous wrote:

"we went to imperfect churches run by imperfect FALLIBLE humans and guess what?

My reply:

What kind of seed is grown in the hearts of those who refuse the light that God is trying to give them? In this case the light is from a dedicated blogger who is trying to reach those who have have ears to hear what the Spirit has said to the churches. Come out of her my people . . .

Anonymous wrote:


Jesus never fails but Satan's workers want his people to fail him by turning a blind eye to the truth. Blessed is the man who walketh NOT in the counsel of the ungodly or standeth in the way of sinners.

Bible Believer said...

Thank you Carlos. Yes the Bible warns over and over about false teachers, false churches and prophets. Those who blindly defend the church system ignore all of those warnings. Thanks for reminding me of Matt 10:25 too.

Bible Believer said...

Thank you Lisa, lots of good points.

Yes, the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit, not a building. Even calling parts of churches, "sanctuaries" as if that is where God exists, is more of the false teaching. That is one more way they get people to look to CHURCH BUILDINGS, rather then seeking after God biblically.

The apostate church yes, is leading many away from Jesus Christ. In fact it is like a giant barrier between many people and God, even considering the people who have faced spiritual abuse or the non-believers who see the bad fruits, sex scandals and poisonous politics. I agree about the man-made formulas of people being told "if they come forward" they will be saved if they say a "short prayer". While some do truly repent and are born again biblically but many are not and believe themselves "saved" simply for answering an altar call and saying the scripted prayer often given to them by a pastor. You make good points about the altar calls helping to deceive. No one is told to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith, but say this prayer, answer the altar call and you're "in".


That is a great point you make Lisa, about those indoctrinated into not realizing they can do business with God privately. In other words no ceremony or altar call is necessary for someone to be born again. It is interesting wondering how many people think this all is necessary for them to be saved. You are right about the "laying on of hands" especially within Pente and Charismatic churches and you see the false preachers eagerly running all over the place to lay hands on people.


i 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Yes the name-calling is part of this. I do not post all the "hate-mail" that comes to this blog, but when people start calling names, you know that is a problem. I posted this one to show my readers how some will defend the "church system" to no end.

Thanks for your post Lisa

Wisdom's apprentice said...

Have you read Pagan Christianity by Barna and Viola or Reimagining Church by Frank Viola. Organic Christianity attempts return the ecclesia to its origin (the headship of Jesus) without all the pagan symbols and rituals. Almost everything that is done in "church" has non-Biblical origins or is shaped by non-Biblical ideas or actions.

Many house churches are organic, not all though. Getting away from the buildings, clerical system and all the pagan inspired symbols is very freeing.

I really probably should look at your site to see what else you have to say before I write much more.

Anonymous said...


As you know I still post on Christian MB's, almost always on Catholic forums. Catholics like to play 'church' and pretend they are superior to Protestants. Often respond with they are BOTH lost, and for people to just follow Jesus. Some Protestants get 'offended', but if one truly follows Jesus, they would say so, and not accept the label 'Protestant'. Too many people are more worried about 'church', rather than worrying about just following Jesus.


Bible Believer said...

Doug you probably remember the early days when discussions of Calvary Chapel were happening. It's just not the lost Protestants [you are correct about them too] but the evangelicals who let pride in CHURCH mislead them too. But I did feel with this post it was important to show the false traditions in Protestantism. Thanks so much. You must be brave to be on those message boards still. I think most of the posters are fake now and "assigned". Some are still there years later still having the same arguments. LOL

Bible Believer said...

My comment about the posters being fake and "assigned" is for a specific message board...[well three that are linked under same "brand"]

Anonymous said...

Take a look at this exchange with an long time member. Made after my comments here....


No need to post this on your blog, but just for you to see for yourself.

Keep up the good work! I don't post here alot, but I read almost everything. Your a beacon of light in this weird 'internet' apologetics arena.


Bible Believer said...

Ah Carm, ecumenical to the max. A lot of the "Christians" on there when they left Rome just made a lateral move. The oddest people on there are the Calvary Chapelists who rail against Roman Catholicism, but then got angry when told about Calvary Chapel's involvements with Rome's crusades and Knights of Malta and everything Catholic. I noticed the recent revelations about Chuck Smith Sr, saying Catholics are Christians too didn't even get through to them. Of course how many "fakes" patrol that board hoping to deceive. It is weird to see a few there, still YEARS later with the same sort of posts. One thing this article, The Daughters: Protestant Churches #1: Altars and Pseudo Masses would just create outrage on that place. I noticed in your thread all the praise of the usual ecfs.

A lot of the Catholics on there only have become more entrenched. What good comes of arguing for literally YEARS. It's odd how its the same names even at this late date.

I still remember on the Calvary Chapel board, Catholicism and ecumenism being praised by the MAJORITY of Calvary Chapelists.

AABB said...

I think your view is too radical. I think you want a church without everything that it should have. Even without a cross in it. (sorry, sounds like Muslim iconoclasm).You said that all that thing is not biblical. Why you can judged that these churches is not true?

Bible Believer said...

I tested these churches according to what the Bible says. If one is a believer in Jesus Christ and has trust in Him for their salvation, why are they going to look at altars and "sacrficies" of false church systems? A Christian believer trusts in what Jesus Christ has done for them, not in what priests will do upon altars. You may find me radical but there are ENDLESS warnings in the Bible about a false church system. Why not heed those? I am not against the use of the cross as a symbol. Crucifix yes--Hebrews 6:6 but cross, no.

Zoompad said...

I just found your blog, and what you are saying about alters rings a chord in me.

I didnt become a Christian believer until 1984, that is when a lady told me that you could actually communicate with Jesus Christ, because he is actually alive, that he actually did rise from the dead and is alive today. I remember feeling astonished and overjoyed, and I remember that lady's calm face when she told me that Jesus is not only alive but offers us everlasting life and is preparing a home for us, a home where we can be happy for ever, and that he wants to heal us. I was overjoyed when it all sunk in.

I read the Bible and it was such a lot to take in. Gradually, things started to make sense to me, but saying that there is still so much I dont understand.

The church hasnt been a place where I have felt welcome or loved. Some people from the churches have made me feel loved and welcome, but as a whole I feel oppressed by the church buildings. I felt confused about that, thinking there must be something really wicked in me to feel blank or even nauseated by the church buildings.

Zoompad said...

But after all the big battle I have had with the Pindown cover up and the secret family courts cover up I am feeling that my horror of the church buildings might be justified. I dont mean to upset any Christians, but for example, in Stafford there is a very old church called St Chads, it is ornimented with horrible ugly demonic faces carved in stone. Some labels in the Church describe the horrible demonic looking carvings as the Green man. Why would a building which has its purpose as to glorify God and bless the children of God have nasty stone monsters carved into its fabric? I think it is awful, and when I went in to pray to God to ask God to stop there being any secret courts in the UK I felt so chilled sitting in that place. I won't go in there again, as I don't like it.

Bible Believer said...

You live in the UK right, you should be concenred about the church buildings because much of those old cathedrals and others are covered in pagan, masonic and other symbols. I was going to do an article about this. They do have GREEN man stuff, labyrinths in the more obvious ones and gargoyles there is nothing Christian about ANY OF THAT. I used to feel evil in Cathedrals as a child, when my parents took me to some [grew up Catholic] and today I understand why. Have you been born again and do you consider yourself a born again Christian? It certainly looks like God is showing you some things.


yes stay away from the false churches, and you are right there are kind people in them but many are deceived. God does not want you setting foot in any of those places.

There is horrible stuff happening here in the family courts but I went and looked up a UK article...


I am glad you are speaking out against this. I wonder even about profit motives in taking children in some cases, and then wonders why so much abuse is overlooked as well.

With the churches, there is a lot there, God will show you. There is even a local baptist church here that is apostate that has a huge pentagram in it's stain glass window from the 1900s. Some of the symbols are more obvious then others. In the Catholic and other liturgical cathedrals those places are COVERED in paganism. Here in America, they have incorporated OUT RIGHT OCCULT SYMBOLS in Catholic cathedrals, the harlot is being more blatant. Trapezoids, high magic geometry, etc, all incoporated, masonic symbols, they KNOW what they are doing. I talk about one here.


Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Nice exposition... "Come out of her My people..." Every modern-day "church" or better yet, religious flavor, did come from the church in Rome. Henry VIII "defected" from the Church, only to do the very same thing, just ascribe a different name for it due to his flesh and pride, i.e the Church of England. There can be no loyalty or allegiance given to Jesus AND anything. Simply read the Book of Acts. There can be no allegiance to, or loyalty to, an institutionalized organization calling itself a church. The minute you name it, you have entered into idolatry. Jesus said "Come unto me..." and thus His disciples preached that very message. No disciple, apostle, etc ever preached "church" to anyone because they knew the temple system was destroyed when Jesus rent Himself and tore that veil, etc.

We are a blood bought PEOPLE, not a blood bought institution! A building cannot be saved or redeemed by the blood of Jesus, only people can!

In the same manner, we might consider the redeemed which is another term that is interchangeable with the ecclesia. It is not a synonym but a term referring to the same group. Redeem means to buy back. What was bought back? You and I! People! Institutions don't sin and institutions are not accountable to God. People are lost in sin and people are accountable to God.

Who are the ecclesia? Those people who realized they were in sin and were helpless to do anything to save themselves; who heard the story of Jesus and His redeeming blood and have responded with love and obedience born of that love; who put Him first in their life; who, because of their mutual love for Christ, have a love and concern for one another to the point that it is an identifying characteristic that "ye may know them"; who follow the lead of and imitate the life of the older and more experienced of their number, as they lead with love and an exemplary life manifested by the Fruits of the Spirit and the image we see of Jesus in the Bible.

Simply, they are God's people, the followers of Christ. He is their High Priest and nothing or no one stands between them and their Savior. They are not "devoted" to, nor serve institutions, organizations, or men who love to label themselves as "duly authorized," but they serve their God and their fellow man through love.

It is an Ecclesia whose existence does not depend on forms, services, ceremonies, clergy, churches, pulpits, pews, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it. This Ecclesia cannot die.

There is an old saying, "a house does not make a home.". Neither does a church building make those who enter it the ekklesia of God

When the church falls to the level of a mere institution it will always adopt the political style of the nation where it resides, and thus dispense the leading of the Holy Spirit. i.e the Catholic Church and it's harlot daughters, etc. Such names as Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc, etc... those are teachings of mere men not duly ordained of Jesus and thus golden calves that people have held onto "in place of" Christ. Just as with Paul....we are of Cephas, we are of Apollo, we are of Paul etc. Friends, there is nothing new under the sun...

Anonymous said...

I truly enjoyed the article & appreciate the exposition. In my humble opinion, it seems to call all out of all 'organized' fellowships is almost cultic-like. I do hope I'm wrong, but that is my initial response at end. Rather, it seems best to warn all in Body of Christ (regardless of how or where we meet) of evil traditions and things wicked that stem from RCC. The Scriptures already share that a time of Apostasy is coming & a great falling away. It can happen (falling away, evil traditions and ecunmerism)anywhere including if you only meet in homes. The issue is the heart of man. We all individually members of the church; individuals.

As regarding some comment by another commentator, in reference to it seems suggesting that we get in trouble the moment we began calling ourselves a church. In the Scriptures you see: 'Church' in Ephesus, Corinth, etc. Personally I'm not a member of any organized Church, but if I come across a fellowship of Believer that meet in a as a church regardless if in a building, etc & in my vincinity/locale...I would prayerfully join. We are called to have commited fellowship & strive togther as a Body of Believers in life...it's just harder to find it without a lot of mess in even more in these last hours. The LORD keeps me. Bottom line, I just wanted to share my thoughts after reading; I'm not sure the answer is to say all should leave 'organize' church b/c its Mystery Babylon. I think evil is inceraisng & falling away happening prophetically. Yes we all should leave anything caught up in wicked man made traditions or even stuff not but elevate over Gods word. Not all human traditions are wicked, but if they usurp God's word they become so.

Lastly I will add that I see how the Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc have mass like services, much tradition & garb/glitter like RCC. Now today many have homosexual priest, pro Gay movements, women in leadership over congregation vs. husband of 1 wife & other requirements that are Biblical, etc. So I wonder, if being involved in a little leaven will eventually spoil it all. Maybe that is what is happening with New Age movement incl Lecto Divina etc in churches that never recieved that years ago! At the very least, Christians should exit any place involved in known sin & rebellion (i.e. not repenting of it) less fall into same sin and/or punishement. I do believe that. We cannot grow in the LORD with known sin. God has saved, saves & will continue saving by His grace. The days will get more evil. God is nevertheless faithful. May Lord Jesus bless! p.s. as I review some of what I shared...I can see how some may believe all organized 'church' is Babylon to come out of. However, I do know its part of end time apostasy. Just dont want to go on a witch-hunt. Do whatever ministry God has called you to do! If it is this, may Jesus bless you in doing all He desires & nothing He desires not. Cant go wrong with that prayer:)

Anonymous said...

Who rules over you?
Hebrews 13:7

Remember them which have the oversight of you which have declared vnto you the worde of god. The ende of whose conversacion se that ye looke vpon and folowe their fayth -Tyndale

Have ye mind of your sovereigns, that have spoken to you the word of God; of whom behold ye the going out of living, and follow ye the faith of them -Wycliff

Be mindful of those leading you, who did speak to you the word of God, whose faith–considering the issue of the behaviour–be imitating -Youngs

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. -ESV

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. -KJV


We just finished reading Hebrews in our family time. Many clergy will attempt to use this verse to control Gods people, when in reality this verse speaks out against those very clergy. Consider the different translations above and then look at the verse in context.

Hebrews 13:7-9 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

We must remember what the apostles and early church elders taught (v13:7) and how they lived because Christ and His gospel do not change though men always try to change it. (v13:8) Beware of those who seek to lead you away with their strange new teachings including denominations, clergy-laity, religous titles, tithing, popish submission, pre-programmed services, etc (v13:9). We must obey those that have the rule over us (to use the questionable language of old king james), namely Christ and the apostles. Thankfully their actions and their teachings are recorded in a book for us called the B.I.B.L.E. We must remember the things they taught so we are not lead away by the strange new doctrines that are invented of men and used to bring us into submission. If we fellowship with Godly elders (that do not violate Hebrews 13:7 by their actions or teachings) we should yield ourselves to their teachings and Godly way of life as they are proven in the faith and have experience dealing with things us younger folks do not yet have. Beyond that, we must obey Hebrews 13:7 and utterly reject any teaching that violates what Christ and the apostles taught.

For the edification of the saints -Jim

Bible Believer said...

Thanks to the last three posters, all great points. I enjoyed what you had to write. It helps round out what I had to say. I do plan more articles about the Protestant churches. I want people rethinking about the entire church system, so much is taken for granted and we need to look to God's Word to know what is true and right.

Dec102007 said...


Hello to everybody,if you want
to explore about the true
teaching in the Bible, try to
ask the Bible and the Bible
will tell you, all about
who is the true
church mention in the Bible.


hsmom said...

I'm jumping into this late and haven't read all the comments. I want to say that I was raised in the Episcopal church, altars and all, and it's truly apostate and a daughter of Rome. Since I had virtually no Bible learning, I was an easy target and joined up with the Christian Scientists, a cult. Praise God, He wasn't done with me! I got saved in Nov. 1997. It was the conservative Mennonites who the Holy Spirit used to get through to me. I currently am a member of a conservative Mennonite fellowship, because it's the most Scriptural fellowship I know of where I live. Our meetinghouse is plain-no altar, and I've explained to my children why one isn't needed. I don't care to be called a Mennonite, though; I think Menno Simons would be horrified at this use of his name; also he's not any type of leader, and while we appreciate the work he did, he's very rarely quoted during any of our meetings. We also have nothing to do with Mennonite Church USA, a very liberal group and severed our ties to MCC. We don't participate in ecumenical stuff. Are we perfect? Far from it! Pray that fellow members will have their eyes open to the truths about modern versions-just this Sunday one of the sisters decided , after many decades of hearing and reading the Bible, that John 5 is a difficult passage in the KJV and had someone read from the NIV. Satan hates us and uses every means he can to spread his poison and create compromise. Pray for me to stay strong in Jesus. I love your website.

Bible Believer said...

Hi HsMom, Praise God you got saved.
I am glad you were able to find a conservative mennonite group and that they are against the ecumenical movement. For me what matters if if people are saved and it seems like your group has definite truths. II would be glad to hear about off-shoot groups that do not follow the liberal Mennonite agendas. That said, how about the "works" thing, do they teach the gospel of grace? I sure hope and pray they do. You may have seen my article on the Amish.


That is good you have no altar, truth there too.

I am sure some had their names misused where today, they wouldn't even recognize the groups that came after them The Waldensians have even gone liberal in Europe.

I hope and pray your group comes to truth about bible versions. I would try and print out some papers, especially the ones that show what the NIV leaves out. I know the Westcott Hort thing can confuse people but do your best to simplify this as much as possible for them.

Thanks for your encouragement, I will pray for you to stay strong.

hsmom said...

Oh, yes, we do teach you are saved by grace, and that your works will show that you are saved-there's much teaching about bearing fruit and discipling others. I've found out how important discipling is, as my sister-in-law, raised Christian Scientist, later supposedly got saved, didn't get discipled, and is currently with the Jehovah's Witnesses. One brother working for Gospel for Asia told me that many Baptist churches don't do enough discipling. I'm not bashing the Baptists, just showing a reaL concern. Anyway, I've been discipled quite a bit, and my fellowship and conference do look out for each other-there's much emphasis on sharing and helping each other, including meeting financial needs. I'm grateful to God that they took me, an outsider, in; of course, we're all outsiders until we come to Jesus. And I could mention too that the conservative Anabaptists teach that we learn from the Old Testament, but we live by the New Testament. We do fellowship with likeminded groups such as the one that John Esh was part of-he and other members of his family were in that horrendous wreck on 3/26/2010. The messages preached at their funeral are available.er

Anonymous said...

One should tace doctrines back to their roots. Reading old Puritan books shows a different understanding to that of our modern thinkers and mindsets.
Hebrews 6,7,8 clearly states that the things of old jewish Temple worsdhip are dead , we are now the Temple. The Catholic Church is an imitation Jewisdh Temple, that has the form of the Life but now the sunstance of Life,,that is in and through Christ jesus, we know this because the catholic Church systamaticaly killed those thatblived the life...its a beast founded on the blood of the Saints.
Churches are daughters of Rome and are in themselves imitation Jewisdh temples that in their form 'DENY THAT CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH', The Temple was before the Crucifiction and before the resssurection and therein lies the solution, for in such whorehoyuses God is not found but prevelent today is found a false spirit the blinds. Come Out was the cry but nobody listened so around the s desert the congregatuions go, until they die and then they will find that ' I did not know you' is their reward. Satens biggest deceit is Religion and Churchanity which deny Him.

Anonymous said...

Re: "Jesus Christ's ONE TIME SACRIFICE IS FINISHED" -- In John 19:30, what did Jesus mean when he cried, 'It is finished'? What does the 'it’ refer to?

We know Jesus’ words do *not* signify the completion of our redemption at that moment, for Paul teaches that our redemption is not complete without Jesus being "raised for our justification" (Rom. 4:25).

myth buster said...

You say that the Apostles had no "obsession" with the elements of the Eucharist, but Paul instructed the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 to examine themselves and approach the Eucharist with holy fear, for the one who eats or drinks unworthily sins against the Body and Blood of the Lord, and in doing so, eats and drinks damnation on himself.

Anonymous said...

apostate Jerusalem is the Harlot in revelation. Not Rome. You just wrote an article on discernment and how frustrating it is that people don't listen to you. Why do you insist the harlot is Rome? Because it fits whats you want to believe.
I'm agreeing with 95 percent of what your saying however. The thrust of the bible is not to expose the false doctrine of catholics. Jeremiah 3:3. where our lord was crucified = Jerusalem.
Your right about people not wanting to know. Also people think in their own fashion with their own logic, they may have not learned how to think in a coherent fashion. Nowadays I call people out when they speak, and their logic breaks down. Some people can't read and write very well, can't understand difficult concepts.
So you are wrong to say Rome is mystery babylon. But the harlot has daughters, which encompasses all false religion in my estimation. But the mother is apostate Israel.
I don't go to a church either, because they preach false doctrines and when I call them on it they don't want me there. One place I think was happy having a place to hand out with each other and family and read the Bible. But an niv. Maybe if you were at some church you wouldn't be writing this blog.
The catholics don't know what's going on for the most part,In James it says to pray for wisdom.

Anonymous said...

It seems like, Catholics need not have a final judgement;

God has given those in the hands of the catholic-hating-protestants!

Matthew 7:
1 'Do not judge, and you will not be judged;

2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you.

3 Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?

4 And how dare you say to your brother, "Let me take that splinter out of your eye," when, look, there is a great log in your own?

5 Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.


- as per Matthew 17:19 - And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build MY church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Bible Believer said...

The Catholic church is a false church.

I am an ex-Catholic and glad that a Christian had the guts to tell me the truth.

Your new liberal [even for the rcc] Pope is marching you all off into perdition and the one world religion.

The true gospel is salvation by faith not salvation by purgatory and sacraments.

Anonymous said...

The Catholic Church a false church? There are thousands of so called Bible believing churches that can't even agree with each other on what the Bible teaches. Some baptize "In the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit," others only "In the Name of Jesus." Some preach once saved always saved, others don't,etc...This is supposed to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH founded by Jesus Christ??? At least the Catholic Church goes back a good 1200 years before Martin Luther started the divisive mess in 1517 AD.

Anonymous said...

The Catholic Church a false church? There are thousands of so called Bible believing churches that can't even agree with each other on what the Bible teaches. Some baptize "In the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit," others only "In the Name of Jesus." Some preach once saved always saved, others don't,etc...This is supposed to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH founded by Jesus Christ??? At least the Catholic Church goes back a good 1200 years before Martin Luther started the divisive mess in 1517 AD.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 4.27 AM. The Roman churches roots go back way before "1200 years before Martin Luther". Cain killed his brother Abel becasue his brothers works were more rightous than his. This is the same "spirit" that started Roman Catholicism. The inquisitions are proof of this. Also "Protestantism" today is nothing like it was in the middle to late 1800s. Men who truly exposed Romanism for what it was back then would not be able to get away with it today. Read some of Henry Grattan Guinness, and James Aitken Wylie's books and see why. There is no such thing as "Protestantism" anymore. The papacys counter reformation fully infiltrated, and now controls it. The good thing the reformation did was help put Gods Word back into the languages of the comman man where all men had the means to search the scriptures for themselve, and seek the Lord......James