Saturday, January 7, 2012

Note to Fanatic For Jesus: Quiverful and The Patriarchy Movement are Products of Rome and Deception

I was browsing the Fanatic for Jesus blog today. She has a lot of information on there, and is a good researcher.

The article this is from has many truths, I agree about Santorum, the Vatican, etc, but check out the part circled in yellow...


The Quiverful Movement and Patriarchy were NOT hijacked by Dominionism or Reconstructionism, but BEGUN by them.

Why on earth would you reject Dominionism on one hand and then support the "Christian Taliban" when it comes to family life?


Where do you think this stuff came from?

Well I wrote the blogger some weeks ago and told her what I thought privately on this matter, but this is what I am talking about when I tell people to be careful and test what they read on blogs. You can read endless truths and her blog warns of many GOOD THINGS and then hit a brick wall of a massive untruth. Some can be sincere misunderstandings, being human, we all have our blind spots, I am sure I even have a few, while others are more insidious in nature.


I would like to think she is sincere, but how could someone research Dominionism so extensively and not see Rome's or even the new world order's claws in the Quiverful and Patriarchy movements?

Who started Quiverful?

Quiverful EXACTLY matches the message given to Catholics, do not use birth control, have as many children as possible. While Quiverful took root in the homeschool movement and used it to advance their beliefs, this was one way Dominionism got it's claws in as well. What about Pharisees laying burdens that not all can bear, especially in a modern non-agricultural society where so few can barely support the few children they have? How are the leaders of Quiverful any different from the Popes laying on their edicts?

I saw enough in the Catholic world to horrify me, including knowing  a woman in a Trad Catholic church with 15 children, being told she would die if she had another, with a husband who ignored the well-being of his wife [sort of like Jim Bob Duggar]. I also knew personally a lady in the regular [Novus Ordo] Catholic church who had 16 children and lived in a two bedroom house dependent on the church's charity where they did not believe in birth control. She collapsed in tears in front of me and another friend saying she could not bear another child. In her mid 40s, she remained fertile and had a disabled child as well to take care of. All I know is 2 years later after I moved away and she was pregnant again.

The tales of abuses, ignoring of women's health problems, are well-known to any middle aged and beyond Catholic or ex-Catholic. Don't forget the modern Catholics who reject birth control have NFP to plan their families, this is actually dissuaded in Quiverful circles and during pre-Vatican II times, NFP was not encouraged. But even the Catholics pre-Vatican II, in cases of extreme hardship unlike the Quiverfuls allowed it [Mrs. Duggar a case in point who spoke of her own possible martyrship in childbirth.]

I have warned about Quiverful on this blog article:

The Duggars, Bill Gothard, Vision Forum, and The Quiverful Movement

There is nothing Christian about it, it is about bondage for women and families, it's leaders have their hands in endless DOMINIONIST politics, they go HAND IN HAND. The notion that the Dominionists infiltrated some Christian directed Quiverful or patriarchy movement is wrong.

ATI-Bill Gothards group, Above Rubies and more advance Quiverful as the only role a woman can play and be godly. Think about this, all the women who never marry in a Quiverful/Patriarchy family are consigned to live at home the rest of their lives as forever children under their father's authority. There is something in this world even called transfer of authority should one of these women marry.

What happens to the women where the parents die young or she marries late? It is nothing but legalism and bondage and we see the Duggar daughters living this out in full view. I am glad I got to do more then babysit my mother's endless babies and do endless housework like Jana Duggar who will be 22 years old next week. I was already a teacher at that age. How sad. Many Christians who get swept up into these lifestyles, many well-meaning desiring the ideal life presented by these teachers and pepper the internet with their blogs filled with Victoriana, sweet flowers on the table and baking bread, either are very sadly unaware of or ignore the many realities of these movements in the abuse, controlled thwarted lives and rest they have brought to many.

Fanatic for Jesus has another blog called "Kindred Spirits". Here she does advance the Quiverful/Patriarchy lifestyle at least with some caveats.  There is nothing wrong with having a large family, and she has been very blessed in that way, but I hope one day she can see what I am warning about here. She writes on one blog entry:

"Recently I made a discovery about an author I really like. Debi Pearl's books are wonderful and I have been changed by many of the things she has written. However, when I recently visited her website, she has occult/New World Order symbolism in it."

I believe to many Christians, the Pearl's books are "wonderful", that is what is so sad about the deception. Many people see the ideal families presented in books like the "Pearls" but do not think things through. I am glad she acknowledges the occult/New World Order symbolism in these books. That is a start. One thing, that is hard and it took me time, is realizing how deep deception went, and more and more and how subtle deception can be. We all have to be on guard for it, I certainly have made my mistakes and been fooled before, even being UU and a Catholic earlier in life is evidence of that, but there are things I have been fooled about even AFTER that time. So I am not claiming perfection for myself, just feeling compelled to warn about Quiverful and Patriarchy. I do not want anyone thinking these movements are OK, and just hijacked by Dominionism when they are full part and parcel of the Dominionism take-over and deception.

On Fanatic for Jesus's sister blog, "Kindred Spirits Sisters"  she repeats the notion that the Quiverful and Patriarchy movements were GOOD movements that got hijacked in her article:

The Christian Church and Use of Birth Control Part 1

A Rabbit Trail: Dominionism/Reconstructionism
As many of you have become aware, Bible-believing Christians who have embraced the Quiver Full/Patriarchy movement, have been hijacked unknowingly by the Christian Dominionist/Reconstrutionist social/political movement. Essentially they seek to influence secular civil government through political action. Ministries such as Vision Forum and Christian Patriarchy ministries are two such ministries, and both have a clear agenda
I just do not agree with her, that the Quiverful and Patriarchy movements were good movements separate from the development of Dominionism.

There are facets of this article that are true, she is right about the role the Dominionists are playing here but misled about what lies behind the Patriarchy stuff.  I question the use of the pill myself since it now seems to be polluting the water and adding estrogen to places that should not have it. I do not know about the evidence of it being an abortifacient, that would take more study on my part and am open to those opinions, but there are definitely birth control methods that are abortifacient like the IUD that Christians should avoid. I do not obviously hold the Quiverful/Catholic opinion about birth control but believe couples should take these issues to God. If a couple is facing financial hardship or severe health problems, and other issues regarding having children, take these to God in prayer. These are matters of personal conscience. I am glad she admits some face immense problems in these areas in her Part 2 article and does not hold to a legalistic line but even in Catholicism, I know people personally who are in the "special categories list" and there are more of them then you'd think who were told by Catholic priests, either to live with spouse as brother and sister for good or take the risk to their lives and health and if they used birth control or even NFP even once as one Trad friend was told, that they were on the way to hell. Being infertile or having severe health problems that preclude pregnancy can be very difficult in the Catholic world, even in many modern Catholic churches.

She admits there are some problems in these movements: [by the way this blog is the Discernment Ministry being mentioned] and I am sorry to have to name names here, and thought of avoiding it but didn't know how to warn about this without using links and where this message was coming from.

Attack from Discernment Ministries
Since the Quiver Full/Patriarchal movements both proclaim self-sacrifice and submission as model virtues of godly womanhood - which is true - opponents believe that women live within stringently enforced doctrines of wifely submission and male domination. Discernment ministries believe that families who live by the Quiver Full/Patriarchy philosophy of following God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply,” and believe in the husband's headship in the family, are trying to win the religion and culture wars through demographic means.[2]


So, let's look at this realistically. How many of us have actually been affected by these false teachings of Dominionism and Reconstructionism? Since a biblical teachings on the family have unknowingly been adopted by the Right Wing, have you been influenced to live each day to take dominion of your community? Does the idea of it seem absurd? Or have you been living by the fundamentals taught in scripture, and filtering out the strange concepts offered through some of these materials?


That is good advice to filter out the "strange stuff" but I see the Quiverful/Patriarchy folks being affected by Dominionism all over the place. Patriarchy itself is strange, and definitely something better left in the Stone Age. Why does she assume all of these things are biblical?

I even have old loved church members who now are praising Vision Forum to me. The people I know 'personally' with stay at home daughters and follow these things, read magazines like World magazine which has the religious right messages to "take Dominion'.  They get these messages constantly within the homeschooling commmunity where discerning homeschoolers need to be very careful.  Considering the numbers game, one thing I find interesting about the Quiverful/Patriarchy world is they forget their lifestyle is not even OBTAINABLE by all Christians, what if a woman is married to an unsaved husband and become born again years into and AFTER the marriage? Can someone become a stay at home daughter who desires courtship when their parents are unbelieving modern folks who demand they leave home by 18 and get a career? It is a CLOSED WORLD.

Scripture has been taken and twisted by many to lay burdens on people and demand lifestyles and rules, that are not of grace but of legalism and control. How many unmarried, single, divorced, born again after the fertile years people are there that the Quiverful/Patriarchy rules just "condemn"? How many people today in this world exist even without families? How many are even the ONLY Christian in the mix? By the way I am the only born again Christian in my entire family network going down the list to cousins, aunts, second cousins, uncles, great-aunts etc.

Where do they get the idea that every Christian has a born again Christian family? In this world, that must be rarer then the dodo bird. I have known of a few in my old church but they were the exceptions rather then the rule, and loving people who did not look to control one another. The people who are marginalized by these movements are immense in number. Even many single, widowed elderly, and other people stay out of the churches because they are too family-focused.

At least the Amish provide some support for their young people and have a set apart lifestyle that is actually has a chance of continuing, unlike the Quiverful and Patriarchy bunch who live in the suburbs and expect their 25 year old daughters to somehow find a husband who is godly and Quiverful and able to support a large family on one income. Even escaping to rural areas, is not a definite fix, I saw my old rural community totally economically devestated, the crime rates their have shot up. Some live on the edge of homelessness. One thing I notice about these worlds is they deny what is happening out there. There is no American economic collapse in the Quiverful/Patriarchy world, reality simply does not exist, every man supposedly has a great job and a farm where he can support 10 children.

As for the extreme stuff, from what I am watching out there even online, it is growing. Quiverful and Patriarchy are tied to many EXTREME things and more of these are being exposed. Google some of these terms. I have read all over the web about this stuff but also have known people who have made the decision to live these lifestyles.

There is one thing called multigenerational faithfulness where even a GROWN man married to his own wife [which ignores Genesis 2:24] has to obey his own father. If a child is brought up under total obedience, some must guess why not continue it for life? For those brought up within abusive or otherwise dysfunctional families, this type of thing can give one the chills imaging an abusive parent that holds authority not just up to age 18 but beyond. And yes they can twist the Bible to make this sound true, cherry-plucking verses. Here is one example of this being taught.



What is this Visionary Parenting stuff? Remember this ties into the Family Integrated Churches I already warned about. This is also is part of the Patriarchy movement! Isn't it strange how these seemingly supposedly old fashioned teachings are promoted with modern phrases like VISION this and THAT?

Then there is the Stay at Home daughters as discussed on this blog before, where even grown women are told they must live at home under the authority of their father, or a brother if father is deceased. This is how women have to live under extreme Islam, where women even have to obey their own grown sons if they are widowed. Google Stay at Home Daughter, or SAHD, and read for yourselves. There is no occupational training allowed outside of a few who allow their daughter to be a "mid-wife" [I know a family now that follows this life, where mother went to college to be a physical therapists, but has gotten swept up in these movements--probably with good intentions, and her SAHD is being relegated to off the books "mid-wife" training. ]

Then there is patriocentricity or biblical patriarchy, where the wife and children to do God's will must follow it through the husband/father, here they also use the VISION language quite extensively.

What is Patriocentricity?
Patriocentricity ~
* Taken from the Latin and Greek root word "patr" meaning father and the word "centric" meaning "situated at or near the center."
* The term was specifically coined to describe the philosophy of family life promoted within some extreme Christian and Reformed homeschooling communities that teaches that God gives a "calling" in life to only men, specifically fathers, and that the purpose of the wife and children is to fulfill the father's calling.
* Those who embrace this position believe that it changes only when a son assumes his own household responsibilities by taking a wife or a daughter is given in marriage when she can then leave her father's home, her new purpose being to fulfill the calling of her husband.
* Though there are varying degrees of this taught within different groups, the father is sometimes described as the "prophet, priest, and king" of the home and there are other common ideals that often accompany patriocentricity, such as militant fecundity, family integrated church, neo-feudalism, as well as neo-agrarianism.
That latter part is interesting, one thing to remember about Patriarchy, it seems they want the priest in your own home with the higher up Pope-pastor issuing orders.  Sadly the type of men attracted to this sort of thing would definitely not be the types who see themselves as Christian stewarts and servants but those who desire power and control, one can just imagine the disordered power-hungry types who expect total submission and obedience.  Neo-feudalism by the way is a very Catholic concept. Also why so much emphasis on obeying a flawed human being at all costs instead of looking to God first? There is no way, a husband is always in perfect unity with God, that is absurdity and actually one of the false messages of the patriarchy movement. It sets women up as blindly submissive automatons. I fully reject the Patriarchy movement and also have warned about the Patriarchy movement on this blog:

"Two Sides of the Same Evil Coin: Radical Feminism Vs. The Patriarchy Movement"


She continues in her article:
One of the greatest principles that stick in the craw of some of these Discernment ministries are the roles God planned for men and women. They are:
God ordained distinct gender roles for man and woman as part of the created order.
A husband and father is the head of his household, a family leader, provider, and protector.
Woman was created as a helper to her husband, as the bearer of children, and as a “keeper at home.” The God-ordained role for a wife is the household and that which is connected with the home. [3]
Discernment ministries who say they understand that feminism is one of the building blocks to Marxism/Socialism/Communism, yet they still stand for their belief in Biblical equal rights. Christian feminism represents the views of the more theologically liberal end of the spectrum within Christianity, so naturally they would have a problem with the role of women in these two movements. Christian egalitarians don't want to see the "chain of command" God has created for men and women; where we are equal before God, yet have different roles.
So, many believe that the Quiver Full and Patriarchy leadership are manipulating the conscience of couples, thus causing them to become legalistic and fervent in their views. I see that as a matter of misguided opinion.

Well we definitely disagree. I am not sure what she means by a Christian egalitarian, perhaps I am one, perhaps not. If someone wants to fill me in on that one, I would appreciate it. I do see the Patriarchy movement as false and already have said, I have no issue with men being the head of households or serving as the family leader, but the patriarchy movement is something else it has twisted what is biblical into something that is of bondage. It turns the man of the house into a tyrant and women into slaves. 

Who began the Patriarchy Movement? Interesting question. One I will be pondering even beyond this article.


By the way, I have found Catholic and deception connections and roots even AMONG two who served a huge role in advancing these movements.

Who are the people I am talking about?



Francis and Edith Schaeffer





As you watch these videos, remember how I have warned how the "culture wars" have been used for deception.
Francis August Schaeffer (30 January 1912 – 15 May 1984[1]) was an American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor. He is most famous for his writings and his establishment of the L'Abri community in Switzerland. Opposed to theological modernism, Schaeffer promoted a more historic Protestant faith and a presuppositional approach to Christian apologetics which he believed would answer the questions of the age.[not verified in body] A number of Christian leaders, authors, and evangelists credit Schaeffer's ideas with helping spark the rise of the Christian Right in the United States and were strongly influenced by him. Among them are Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry, Focus on the Family's James Dobson, the 700 Club's Pat Robertson, Prison Fellowship's Charles Colson, columnist Cal Thomas, preacher and author Tim LaHaye, former Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, and Liberty University and Moral Majority founder Jerry Falwell [2].
Notice who considers him a strong influence?

Francis Schaeffer played a strong role in influencing the religious right and in the Patriarchy movement as well, it seems even their son, who left the family religion and "fundamentalism" later, was part of this:

In addition to more of Frank’s family memoir [he is the son of Fran and Edith Schaeffer], Frank also tells his role in helping create the Quiverfull movement by assisting Mary Pride in publishing her book The Way Home–regarded as a foundation of the Quiverful movement and theology.

Edith Schaeffer has been very influential in the Christian Patriarchy movement as well.
 Schaeffer's The Hidden Art of Homemaking (1971) has been influential among women in the Christian Patriarchy movement,[12] and has been described by Kathryn Joyce as "perhaps unintentionally, a landmark book for proponents of biblical womanhood."[12] Like What is a Family?, it has been described by Evangelical author Becky Freeman as a "timeless classic"[13]

Read Chapter 5 of this book to see the role the Schaeffers helped to set up in telling Christians to focus their attention back on the home.

The Schaeffers also with Os Guinness, a known false teacher, serving as a leader in this organization set up L'Abri. L'Abri was and is very ecumenical in nature. False teachers like Stott [now deceased] are honored in it's circles.  Francis Beckwith who returned to the Catholic church wrote of his encounters with Edith Schaeffer, is this Francis a reference to her husband or St. Francis of Assisi? Francis Schaeffer had a positive view of the saint. [see page 13, here]


Just so you know Looks Like The Shelter or L'Abri was an interesting place.




I read that second part, and well, I suppose my readers can guess what I think, there are times I am doing research WHILE I write the article, and just minutes ago, I was even shocked. Ok, run down the list, these two were instrumental in helping to form today's Patriarchy and Quiverful movement but they ran this place where they invited the hippies, and non-Christians and had LSD promoting "prophet" Timothy Leary visit and some movers and shakers from the Jesus Movement?


This from a book that outlines the history of the Christian Right. Hey not so Christian, after all. Remember what I tell everyone here over and over about the Right and Left delusion? Keep that in mind.

So that said, do you think we should trust the Patriarchy and Quiverful Movements as being biblical in nature? I think not. 


As I have said on this blog many times, everything false is rooted in the harlot.

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

Very informative article. I would, however like to point out several things, in the interest of loving the truth. In revealing the errors of "movements", let us be careful not to despise the Scriptures and the unique roles God has designed for men and women who make up the body of Christ. Although these movements may have used such Scripture, building it into, and perhaps twisting, and misapplying them, nonetheless, these are still the Word of God, and the word, as given by God, still stands. The Bible says, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: ...The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." (Titus 2:1, 3-5)

Secondly, in reference to Fanatic for Jesus. (I do read that blog as well) From what I can tell, she is merely another blogger, seeking to know the truth and to tell others. None of us are infallible or understand all things fully; we are not God - but we are seeking and learning. It is one thing to be able to unmask and identify false teaching, and/or false teachers (by their roots and fruits). But when it comes to Fanatic and others doing the same good work you also are doing, I think we need to extend some grace, (and let it be known, I am not referring to those who are intentionally misleading, but to those (even ourselves, I would add) who are not where we ought to be, or have the same understanding - but are seeking, learning and growing as God leads them, as well.

The Bible says, that Jesus said,"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bundle them: but gather the wheat into my barn." (Matt 13:24-32)

In regard to those whose lives we are not able to examine (roots, fruits and "spirit"), merely their writings pertaining to matters as they currently understand them, we need to take care!

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2 Tim 2:24-26)

Marion
(I don't know how to get my name to post under "select profile", so I select anonymous - can you help me?)

Taryn said...

Randy Alcorn has a book-Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions? Above Rubies sells it for $3. I think Mary Pride's book-The Way Home- is a great book. Have you read it? Another good book is The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto.

Taryn said...

I have read Voddie Baucham's book-What He Must Be- if he wants to marry my daughter. That's the only book I plan on reading on Patriarchy. I think it's a good book. His daughter Jasmine wrote a book about stay-at-home daughters that I hope to read. I think the Duggars' books are interesting even though I disagree with them about home education curricula, Bill Gothard,etc. I could never be a teacher in a government school/extended daycare/indoctrination center. It grieves me that my granddaughters might go to a government school.

Donna Martin said...

I'm not aware of how the Catholics do things when it comes to accepting the number of children God sends. You have this theory that the present Quiver Full movement has roots in the Catholic Church, but you need to check it out further. They actually got it from the Bible. Just as every cult teaches lies alongside truth, this is one of those cases.

What I do know is the sincerity and desire to live a life devoted to God and His will. Each point brought up in these books are scripturally based, and they use examples of the lifestyle and mindset of ancient Israel. In Israel, childlessness was scorned, but women with many children were honored. Children are a reward and a blessing - and was at one time equated to prosperity.

I suggest that you get Mary Pride's book - The Way Home - and read it to the end. Mary's literary agent was Franky Schaeffer, but she only spoke to him once on the phone. She never spoke to or met Frances. She got the basis for her book straight from the Word. She never did this book for political reasons. I got it straight from her in an email.

In her 25th Anniversary Edition of The Way Home, she does NOT encourage priding ourselves on having more children than other families, or putting down those who are physically unable to have children. Her goal was to reverse the headlong trend of Christian wives tying their tubes and dumping their babies in daycare/public school, which ALL major Christian media was promoting at the time. The point of the book was to draw attention to the Bible's teaching on this subject, which emphatically does not support careerism, deliberate barrenness, family planning, or despising our calling to train up our own children.

Anonymous said...

Quiverful is a most dangerous movement and surely this blogger has seen the correction issued by G4. Her motives will be revealed with her reaction to the correction. This goes to show that we must be vigilant at all times. When there is a conflict with a person saying one thing and then contradicting themselves under a different venue, this is problematic. G4 did the right thing here. I assume that G4 sent this article to FFJ also as this would be the right thing to do.

Anonymous said...

Donna Martin above, is FFJ

Bible Believer said...

I understand the roles men and women have, but there are many movements out there attempting to skew those things. I know it is a hard thing to be balanced on. I am NOT a feminist, and have written about that, they have done many things to break apart families, promote abortion and actually oppress women more with the two for one deal. When these movements go to the point of desiring to treat Christian women such as the Taliban does or extreme Islam [where women need an escort to leave the house, marry who their fathers choose for them with bride prices exchanged or must always be under the obedience to a male figure--the SAHD movement, something has gone very askew. I do think women have roles where they can serve God, where motherhood may not be in the picture for whatever reason. Some have turned family and motherhood into idols of their own.

Fanatic for Jesus is a good researcher and I agree she is most likely just another blogger seeking for truth, my aim was to show her my concerns about Quiverful, and Mary Pride and these other movements. This was not easy to do. I still find her studies of Dominionism and then not seeing the Dominionism behind these movements as contradictory but I know even sincere folks can have contradictions, as none of us are perfect.

I am not sure about the select profile, will have to check that myself.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Tayrn, I'll check those books out.

I will read The Way Home. Planned to anyhow. I have read a lot about it.

But one thing there, Mary Pride's outlying of life, is NOT available to all Christians.

If something is not obtainable, for every Christian [those married to unbelievers, the infertile, the childless, the single, the divorced, those who are too poor to have the homestead to grow food, and live the more old fashioned life, that is a major problem.

It doesn't mean it is inherently faulty, I know people who live the homeschool, stay at home life out on the farm and even in the suburbs. They are kind good people. But the problem arises when such people say "This is what it means to be a good Christian" and marginalizes so many people it is not funny. What of people with unsaved relatives, who may even be the only saved person in the household?

It is like they are selling the "CHRISTIAN LIFESTYLE TM" and those who fail to obtain it's accourtements, the farm house, the 5 plus children, etc, are "failures".

It is interesting to me how these folks ignore economic realities, I know rural America is dying, and have seen this in my own life. When you see families and communities breaking apart because there are no jobs and it has happened to your own life, reading of some ideal life that only SOME folks can obtain gets strange: very strange. We are not living Mayberry anymore, though I understand the desire for that trust me on that. I feel like when I read some of these websites where they show the nice Victorian homes or the beautiful children photographed with the loaves of baking bread, I think of people I know who are struggling even to keep rent on a small apt paid, or those with children who must go work to keep groceries in the house not to go on some "feminist" empowerment trip but to SURVIVE.

Also is this notion to retreat into the household and caccoon, Christian in nature? Let's not forget fear in this world is used to sell many things. Are Christians to be out there preaching the gospel or circling the wagons? Mary Pride's message is return to the home!

Now I think there are major problems with shoving children into daycare etc, but one thing I often think about is how these types are tied into the right side of the political movement, which is part of the reason wages for men are dropping and now 1 in 5 men are unemployed, yes I posted a link on this, and that is a contradiction as well, for if Father can not make a decent living and PROVIDE, how are families to stay intact and raised healthily? [The left side, is helping with the ruination of the quality of life too]

These sort of things are never questioned or talked about but swept under a MAJOR MAJOR carpet.

It is strange when I see a woman who has had a lot of education and now says keep the daughters at home! It just seems all to be extreme bouncing to the other side. Then they idealize the past to the extreme. That part troubles me as well. Christians are being sold this ideal past that never existed. Yes things are waxing worse as we get into the last days but if you think wickedness didn't exist in the "old days" you are deluded. It's not just the Christian "history" of the founding of this country where they try to turn George Washington the Freemason into a born again Christian, but turning the 1800s into some kind of Little House on the Prairie dream land where life was ideal and every family loving and kind. The reality was life was harder in many ways, death was ever present, and they had their alcoholics, broken up families and wickedness to contend to with then as well. Also most poorer women did have to work, but back then it was either on the farm or in the community taking wash, etc.

It's like they have jumped on the working feminist vs. the stay at home Mom bandwagon which has taken precedent in American culture over the years and it's gotten kind of crazy.

Real life is far messier then that.
Reply

Bible Believer said...

Tayrn, I would take good leave the bad, from the book WHAT HE MUST BE, but the problem is, daughters grow up and will choose their own husbands. My own family was against my marriage because my would be spouse was NOT CATHOLIC. [he was raised Lutheran] Parents who think they will have control of who their child chooses for a spouse have lost the plot, however I will say this, that sort of book could be useful to train a daughter and teach her about WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A SPOUSE and WHAT QUALITIES to seek!

I have my own concerns about public schools, I've been inside them, and think of the books and the world citizen lesson plans. They are using them even to train the children for the police state. I have read John Gatto books and writings and totally agree with him.

However that said, I have this sick feeling in my stomach sometimes wondering if there is a move afoot in this country using the right left deception to do away with public education for the poor in general. They have infiltrated the schools and now are taking them to destruction in a variety of ways.

That is disturbing to me. People fought for education for years. I see an anti-education bias with the Duggars. They are leaving their children uneducated. I believe Christians can be educated and learn within the will of God. Jill should have been allowed to go to REAL NURSING SCHOOL, that one alone is a tragedy. The younger children seem to be denied even a decent home school education as MR and Mrs Duggar get more busy with the show and Josie and the rest.

I never can get on board with those who hate and disdain all education. While there is indoctrination to be watched out for and the NWO involvement with the universities, and watching out for those who are ever learning but never coming to the truth, the anti-learning/education bias bothers me big time.

Bible Believer said...

Donna,

I believe there are definitely Catholic roots to this stuff. Right now it is a running theory, but it will be explored. The Schaeffers definitely had NWO connections running if they had Timothy Leary come over for a visit as shown in that one book. Why was Frances Schaeffer Mary Pride's literary agent? Surely given the good research you do, you must realize such things are not just accidents.

Mary Pride is seen as the mother of the Quiverful movement for a reason. She is seen as one of the starters of the Patriarchy Movement even if she disavows some of the strange places it has gone today.

I found this discussion on a message board:

"Mary Pride says she is not the founder of the modern Patriarchy movement. Ok. She is not responsible for the fact that other teachers took the ball and ran with it past where she would have gone. But she is still one of the main ones who started the ballgame in the first place.

She is still stuck in the hermeneutic that leads to modern Patriarchy: it takes the settings of the Bible and calls them "biblical," meaning not "of Bible times" but "according to God's will."

http://nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guestswelcome&action=display&thread=1188

I don't agree with everything said above but other parts are true.
They sell this lifestyle saying it is all biblical when it is actually more legalism wrapped up in box with a bow.

Why are they selling this stuff. Page 80, on that same message board, they put up a quote by Mary Pride, which seems to speak of her saying Let Christians win via the demographic war.

I also find this comment of interest:

"Here's what puzzles me so about Mary Pride, and many of the other women who preach and teach that all women everywhere should be stay-at-homes (moms or daughters), have unlimited children, and be submitted to male authority: if you looked at her actions, rather than her words, she'd look a lot like those feminists she claims to despise!"

I have had the same thought about many of these women, that would apply to Michelle Bachmann. LOL

Bible Believer said...

Also Donna, thing about how these things are being used in a cultural NWO context, the two ends against the middle idea.

They present this life on one side and the extreme on the other. Hyperfeminist who hates men and advances abortion on one side vs extreme submissive wife, who takes the advice of Fabulous Womanhood [a book they gave me to read by the way in my old fundamentalist church] where they become blindly obedient to men and start believing their only role, purpose in life is motherhood. As for careerism, the woman in Proverbs is selling land and goods at market, she is not sitting at home, but helping to support her family. Most poor woman for centuries have had to work. Even that stay at home and be totally supported by a husband with a good job stuff came about from a very prosperous time in American history. The women on the farms in the 1800s worked as hard as the men. Yes the feminism brought the split up the family, the dump your kids in daycare all day stuff which was wrong, but this was just used as the pendelumn on the other side sort of thing, where the answer to the march of feminism from the Christian right was return home and become "more submissive"? The Bible has many teachings on family and training children but be more careful looking to what is in the Bible vs how the Bible is being used for their CONTROL.

They love to use fear and guilt to control people.

Dominionism and Patriarchy and Quiverful go hand in hand with each other. That is what it comes down to.

Bible Believer said...

Proverbs 31:10-31

King James Version (KJV)


10Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

11The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

13She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

17She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

18She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

19She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

21She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.

22She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

23Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

24She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

25Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

26She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

27She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

28Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

29Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

30Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

31Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

************

1. Notice the Proverbs 31 makes and sells things on the market with her own hands.

2. She buys real estate [the field]

3. Her husband trusts her with business pursuits.

4. She feeds the servants and takes care of them.

5. She sells things.

Bible Believer said...

Now compare the Proverbs 31 woman to the the Quiverful Patriarchy ideal where the poor lady is barely allowed to leave the house.

I believe women are to take care of the home, men are to be providers, etc. Motherhood IS a very important role.

But they have skewed things to their own uses. Please Donna, consider how these teachings are being used to oppress and hurt many. How they are using them even POLITICALLY.

Bible Believer said...

Thank you Anon.

Quiverful and Patriarchy both are dangerous movements.

Honestly, feminism has wrought enough evils itself, but there is plenty of evil that can come from the *right* side of this equation.

Patriarchy is for men not with a servant's heart but for those who want to control, oppress and be the "priest" in the house. But patriarchy by the way harms men too. How is a overly submissive woman who acts as a child in the house a real helpmeet?

I am glad Donna did see this article. I got behind and was going to make sure she saw it, via email but glad she did.

Motherhood and big families are blessings, but even think of how life will be for your daughter should Quiverful and Patriarchy go to their full manfestations....[no more education, life only based on their fertility--such as in Islam, a more narrow and narrow world, and helplessness as adults especially should they end up unmarried or their father is deceased. I find some parts of patriarchy so ludicrous, even knowing the numbers of people who by a certain age have lost both parents. Most people by their middle years have already seen their father die. [Don't believe the NWO, when they tell you that everyone lives to be 80 something]

Legalistic things of bondage, that condemn everyone who cannot live this lifesytle nor obtain it. Children who are brought up cult like to obey or else. {I believe Christianity is to be chosen in freedom, ie a child comes to salvation in Jesus Christ in freedom and in love, not in control.}

Thanks for your support Anon.

Donna Martin said...

Galations 4:

There was something I wanted to comment on.

I can see the connection between Christian Dominionism/Reconstructionism and the Quiver Full movement. I wrote an article about it shortly after we had our first exchange a few months ago. The title was "Christian Reconstructionism and the History of the Homeschool Movement." Rushdoony was the founder of the movement, and he did it purely for political purposes. You can see this in the people who carried on the movement - and they were all members of the CNP.

BUT, I believe that Mary Pride, as well as Cheryl Lindsey, were people the NWO used for their evil purposes. Francis Schaeffer saw an opportunity and took it - using Franky to make the one time connection as her literary agent. Based on her letter to me, she purely did it based on the Bible.

I've been homeschooling for 25 years, and did not know until a few months ago that all homeschool curriculum has been contaminated by the Reconstructionists. I've known about Dominionism, but Reconsturctionism was a new piece of the puzzle.

(will continue)

Donna Martin said...

I also wanted to comment on your use of the word "legalism." It is a word that has changed its meaning in the modern church. I was listening to David Jeremiah a few months ago, who is part of the NWO corporate church (also a Mason), and he preaches "Jesus plus nothing." If you look at this closer, it is a term used by Doug Coe and many who are part of the Religious Right and the CNP.

http://harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525

This doctrine isn't fully true, since we are called to live a life set apart from the ways of the world, and we should strive for personal holiness. "Jesus plus nothing" doesn't take into account all the other scriptures that teach likewise. I don't believe that you must have a large family to be saved, or never work in the public workplace. There are circumstances in everyones life the prevent us from living His perfect will. All of these points have been taken to the extreme.

I am very sorry for those who feel as though they cannot be a full time keeper at home for whatever circumstances they are in. The same with those who have tried to have children and have lost their babies through miscarriage or infertility. I know their pain. I understand that both the QuiverFull and Patriarchy movements can be dangerous if placed in the hands of unbalanced people. Good can also be used for evil.

To place the QuiverFull and Patriarchy people into a dangerous group is wrong. Poor Jim Bob is being used by the system, and he should be supported and encouraged. If Jill wanted to go to regular nursing school, I'm sure they would support it.

We are all sinners who are desperately wicked. Even after we're saved and we think we're doing God's will, we then find out that we're doing the complete opposite. Grace should be given to them, and they should gently be made aware of the hidden agenda within the curriculum. To tear them down when they are only trying to do the best for their family isn't right.

Donna Martin said...

If you feel that homeschoolers are getting an inadequate education, you should look at the statistics. My daughter, who homeschooled from the third grade through senior year, graduated from the University of Alaska with honors. My son, who is now in community college, is top of his class. Both of them were fully prepared for school when they entered.

I think you ought to let this group of people alone. Just because the roots of homeschooling was evil, doesn't mean it's evil as a whole.

Just because you decide to stop using birth control manufactured by the eugenics folks and go natural, doesn't mean you believe in supporting Right Wing politics and vote for a NWO candidate.

Just because a girl stays home until she's 30 and gets her father's approval to married, doesn't mean she's living in bondage. She may have no where to go, and she may want to be there.

That all being said, I'll say no more.

Bible Believer said...

Donna I am glad you see the connections between Dominionism and Christian Reconstructionism. You are right Rushdoony did this for political reasons but do you see the workings of the Catholic church in all this especially with him? Do you see how groups like The Moral Majority etc, have all served an overall political agenda via Rome?
Here I would like to suggest the writings of Ronald Cooke.

Read this one especially PAPAL THEONOMY AND AMERICA TODAY. I own a paper copy as well but here is a website to read the whole booklet.

http://seawaves.us/na/web4/theonomy.html

Jesuit ideas are being infiltrated via the Christian right all over the place.

and well while we may AGREE on many basics with this, I see the Quiverful and Patriarchy movement as two of their puppies.

You may be right, Mary Pride, merely was a sincere lady who wanted to tell women to free themselves from feminism, I will have to check out the book for myself, maybe Francis Schaeffer was sent to her. We know infiltrators come from all over the place. So on that one you may be correct.

I will need her book to go into more detail, so will take a look for myself.

One thing I need to make clear, I AM NOT AGAINST HOMESCHOOLING. I understand those who for economic and other reasons cannot do it, but I think homeschooling is mostly a positive IF DONE RIGHT. IN fact I totally understand why people take their children out of the public schools of indoctrination. If you examine this website, I have articles WARNING about things happening in the public schools. I believe many parents CAN do a better job even then public schools with homeschooling but in the Duggars case I do think they are dropping the ball [well from what is shown on TV and the children do seem behind]. I have seen homeschooled children who are far advanced and could pass any test and have learned far more then they did in public school. I am glad you understand the influences of the Dominionist/ and how Reconstructionists have influenced so many homeschool materials. Am not sure if you saw this article on my blog but that definitely happened:

http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2011/09/influencing-homeschool-movement-to-take.html

Bible Believer said...

Yes legalism is a word that can be abused by the false preachers, however with the Quiverful/Patriarchy movements I see total legalism. Let me ask you two questions.

1. Do you admit there are Christian women and others marginalized by these movements?

The people without families, children, etc, who may be infertile or childless or unmarried or married to an unsaved person?

2. Do you see how Patriarchy can be abused? Let's not forget in places where TOTAL PATRIARCHY is advanced, neither of your websites would be allowed. A mere woman would not be allowed to write on religious issues. In fact I was told once by a detractor that I was in "sin" being female and writing this blog. There are many who have used such rules, to tell women to stay silent and they have no place to warn of false teachings etc. Think those things out and how the life of even of your daughters could grow narrower and narrower. I have read books [memroirs] as they were, of women in extreme Islam, where women are TOTALLY controlled by men and the "patriarchs". In some countries they cannot even leave the house without a male escort. Everything is about control. That is where the extremes of patriarchy lead.

Even online there are ENDLESS websites of children and women, who make it out [I have read the FLDS books] out of patriarchy cult systems and the abuses that have happened. This is not happening in a vaccumn. When people have their own self direction under God taken away, that is where you end up with a cult. When they want this done to 50% of the population, there is a reason for it, it is about POWER.

I know about the "jesus plus nothing" stuff of "the Family"...

but you do realize "the FAMILY" supports via their endless tentacles, all this Dominionism/Patriarchy stuff.

That alone would take it's own article.

Didn't you list some of those endless "political" groups recently on a recent blog article of yours?

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/01/awakening-2012-conservative-veil.html

I agree we are to strive for holiness but whose rules? God's or man's?

What is wrong about just living biblically instead of buying into the Dominionist Quiverful and Patriarchy stuff? Quiet and peaceful with loving families instead of those so interested in turning even HOMES into little fiefdoms of power-hungry men?

I even think many misinterpret the Bible to advance Patriarchy and Quiverful but that would take it's own blog thread. I think Jim Bob could be just used by the system as well, he seems deceived himself instead of a knowing deceiver. I do not think they would support Jill going to a regular nursing school. We do differ there. They will do what Bill Gothard suggests [a man himself who never even married]
I agree grace should be given to them, and everyone makes mistakes, but those children are suffering due to the "mistakes". I would like to see the entire family come out of the ATI/Bill Gothard cult and leave the QUiverful/Patriarchy nonsense behind. Also there is some hypocrisy in refusing TV at home but then advancing fame and a TV show on the front end. Isn't it better to warn them? I wonder if any Christian person ever has? Regarding "tearing them down", I think of the suffering of those children, and others I have read caught in cults.

Bible Believer said...

I think many homeschoolers get a MORE adequate education, if it is done right. There are some out there who abuse homeschooling, controlling abusive parents and others. Even the liberal 'unschooling" movement is something to wonder about where those people do not even believe children should have any schooling whatsoever. I am glad your children have gone to college and succeeded. Many homeschoolers do quite well. THINK about this, this opportunity has been denied to the Duggar children. Jana is at the age where she should have her college degree done by now, she is already behind all of her peers, and well from what we can see no opportunities for "courting" or marriage are happening for those young women.

I understand why people refuse birth control and go natural or even switch to NFP methods or use non-hormonal methods, though seems lately they are pushing one horrible abortive method using the lack of hormones as selling point. I agree with you that doesn't necessarily mean someone who does that is falling into the Right Wing of the NWO's clutches.

With an older girl living at home, I am always happy to see someone with a supportive family, no matter what their age. However someone at 30 needs a way to support themselves if they are not married. They also should be contributing to the household as a full adult, instead of living the life of a 15 year old at the age of 30.

I have prayed for the Duggar daughters and hope they can have lives beyond just being their mother's perpetual housekeepers and babysitters. They definitely have been used that way. Even Amish women are far freer then Duggars.

What happens if both parents die? In the SAHD movement they do not answer those questions. Statistically most people by age 40 lose at least one parent, and for some it can be both. They make a big deal of the father's headship [you know that patriarchy stuff, where the man of the house is turned into the house "priest"] and once he is gone, what will happen to that young women then?

Now a loving Christian family can have their 30 year daughter living with them but it is bondage if she is taught, that her father is her "headship" and she is not allowed to pursue an occupation, or do anything without having a husband and one the patriarch must "approve" One wonders how many of these women stay in limbo with the patriarch refusing all courting beaus. This is where parents want to take authority over grown adult children that only God should have. To me watching this is absurd, I "disobeyed" my parents even becoming a Christian [well one was deceased at the time I was saved]. I was almost born again at the age of 17, got very close hanging out with a Christian group but was forbidden to go to a Christian weekend with this group by both parents. Watching all these young people told they must obey or else, gives me the shivers. Then I switched around, and went to the UUs, that was not welcomed of course either. I did hear the gospel with these Christians who did plant seeds Thank God.

Parents who want this type of control over their grown children, it is a major problem.

I am even distressed to see no solitary [God or self directed] initiative among the GROWN Duggar children. Why don't they ever seem to make any of their own decisions? Maybe those things are edited from the TV show.

http://www.ericpazdziora.com/writing/the-bondage-of-betrothal/

This is about extreme parental authoritarianism and a desire for it, even at advanced ages.

Patriarchy and Quiverful are about bondage.

I am glad I had this conversation with you. I know I will have to say I still disagree with you on Patriarchy and Quiverful, but I do appreciate your blog and your research on Fanatic for Jesus and hope you keep up the good work.

Donna said...

Thanks Galations 4. I'll read the "Papal Theonomy and America Today." I'll let you know if I change my mind about the Rome connection to the Quiver Full and Patriarchy movements.

By the way, I wrote to Jim Bob when I saw that he was supporting Rick Santorum. I sent him the research I did on Santorum's Knights of Malta ties, and how he was Santorum's secret weapon. I haven't heard anything from him yet, and I may never hear back. Gothard has the same patriotic stuff packed into his lessons.

Donna

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Donna, yes tell me what you think about the Rome connection to the Quiverful and Patriarchy movements. Those booklets helped me in seeing the big picture on how things were being "manipulated". You have an email to Jim Bob? Warn him about ATI too, and speak up on behalf of the children and grown adult children if you could. I am glad you warned him about Santorum and Knights of Malta connections. Yeah you may just get an automated response back. Yes there is the same "patriotic", "America as a Christian nation" things in Gothard lessons as well.

Bible Believer said...

Oh Donna, if you see this response, don't miss the latest article on The Duggars regarding the Knights of Columbus. Thanks. I am in shock no one in even their religious circles are questioning these Catholic connections.

Donna Martin said...

Gal. 4, I've been reading the book you recommended and went to your blog to write you a note. I saw the Duggar photo and it all clicked! Yes, I do see a connection between the Jesuit agenda/Reconstructionism and the QuiverFull Movement. For some reason, I did know that the Reconstructionists were pursuing similar goals, but never connected it to the Jesuit agenda. I know that Francis Schaeffer was a Reconstructionist, but still not certain that Mary Pride knew that he had that political leaning. She had already been having children at that point. God bless you!

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Donna, I am glad reading that book helped you see those things. I had a friend send me the Ronald Cooke books, long ago, they helped me even remembering what i had read and studied back then. Remember these people will use even what is GOOD, [like having big family and children] and seek to TWIST IT for their own power and control. I consider all Reconstructionism tied to Rome. Also if you think of all the masonic orders [I once read 40% of SBC pastors were Freemasons] as troops--[most on lower levels unknowing] for Rome, it does help put the many puzzle pieces together. Mary Pride could be someone they just happened to co-opt but that needs research and I need to read her book. God bless you too.