Saturday, April 9, 2011

20/20 Expose on IFB [Independent Fundamentalist Baptist] Churches


I caught this show by chance yesterday, and saw about half of it.

WATCH VIDEO HERE [I could not embed]


Elizabeth Vargas’ yearlong exclusive investigation into a religious sub-culture that critics claim can foster – even cover up – physical and sexual abuse airs on “20/20” on FRIDAY, APRIL 8 (10:00 – 11:00 p.m. ET) on the ABC Television Network. Critics say the church teaches a strict interpretation of the bible including the practice known as breaking the will of the child, with some advocating that it even be applied to infants as young as two weeks old.

Some of my thoughts on this...

I had a positive experience in an IFB church, I talk about here. In that church, I know they wouldn't have stood for any abusers or cover-ups.

HOWEVER.....

Like many of the rest of churches there are many evils entering into the churches as they fall away and I have witnessed some scary things in the fundamentalist world, I talked about on this blog entry: "Falsehoods and Falling Away in Fundamentalist Churches." It was interesting watching IFB churches called a "religious sub culture" and references to their members [guess that means me some years ago] as "cult members".


Some things I thought as I watched this video...

1. The sex abusers/abusers and predators are everywhere, and often use religion as a cover for what they really are. Many people are deceived by psycho-paths who wear a false Christian veneer. Christians need to wise up about this and realize often the wolves are not outside the church door, but sneaking in to create as much havoc as possible. Some churches do have cover-ups following the example of the Roman Catholic church in being more worried about scandal then about truth and justice. I believe the victims. This stuff is happening. One thing that bothered me for years in dealing with the Catholic apologists is they always made excuses for the abuse protecting clergy and abusers. No Christian should excuse evil for any church organization!


2. I found the phrase [see above] "breaking the will" of the child interesting. We know that Dominionist, Michael Pearl's teachings, Vision Forum and false "patriarchy" teachings are infiltrating the Christian world including IFB churches. In the video they talk about fundamentalists reading the book "To Train Up a Child" by the Pearls. I wrote about the Pearls on this blog as well. People who want to spank a two week old baby are wicked not discerning Christians. Sadly that stuff is infesting many churches including some IFBs.

3. There are some fundamentalist churches with wolves in the pulpits. Satan's followers aren't just making hash of the more liberal churches but are coming into the fundamentalist ones as well. There are concerning trends and associations even in the fundamentalist bible colleges. There are the deceived and the deceiving. If you can find a humble truly born again pastor that treats a congregation with love more then one who is seeking after power, consider yourself blessed by God. Seeing what I have seen in this churches since I moved, I know I was very blessed as a new Christian.

Many are teaching false obedience and promoting extreme authoritarianism that often goes hand in hand with false politics [the Dominionism I talk about a lot on this blog]. I am worried about many of these prevalent trends, and will not turn a blind eye to what is happening in all the churches even one of a "brand" I have fonder memories of. This doesn't mean there not any good born again men in IFB churches preaching the gospel and obeying God but obviously churches are being led astray out there. We are in a world now where Christians need to always keep discerning and in prayer, and test everything by God's Word.

4. In the video above, Elizabeth Vargas at least points out this is a handful of IFB churches are "not all the same", but I wonder about ABC news agenda in downgrading fundamentalist churches in general? There seems to be an overall agenda here. I know secular society sees bible or "fundamentalist" Christians as cult members in general. The only churches teaching separation against the ecumenical and religious world system are a handful of IFB and other fundamentalist churches..[yes some have fallen away], it is doubtful the reporting by the mass media is going to be totally non biased.

5. Pray for the victims and that the abusers truly repent.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

I beleve this is part of the war going on against fundamentalism and fundamentalist churches and I suspect the churches have been INFILTRATED to cause a lot of this to discredit fundamentalism. I am adamant about this. The far bigger truth of the fundamentalist chuches is that most of them have been shifting away from fundamentalist teaching for SEVERAL DECADES. The few true fundamentalists left are the most despised group of Christians today by the those whose only job is to break down all churches to take them into the one world religion movement. The far fewer Bible only separatist fundamentalists left today are their last holdout. They are virtually despised.

Anonymous said...

Child predaters iniltrate churches to do just this.

Anonymous said...

I refused to see the movie when it came out and never will. But there has been plenty of info about it on the internet since it came out. A qualified pastor should know of it and not be condoning the movie at this late date.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, that post was supposed to go with the article on the Passion Movie. BB, please move. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

First Anon., you are so right! There are fewer and fewer who are truly sticking to the Scripture, and more collecting many teachers and then calling this "Bible teaching". It's very grievous, but that will not change the will of the I AM. Let the I AM be true, and every man a liar. Anon. "#1"

Bible Believer said...

First anon, I agree with you that this is part of the war going on against fundamentalists and fundamentalist churches. There definitely is infiltration of the churches happening and apostate movements like the patriarchy/dominionism/vision forum being designed to bring fundamentalist churches into apostaty that they haven't been able to sway into the false ecumenical movement. The fundamentalist bible colleges and with some of the well-known leadership definitely show signs of infiltration. We know that churches that adhere to the "fundamentals" have grown both fewer and number and have been dropping off for a long time. It is true that fundamentalists are the most despised group out there. The powers that be are doing what they can to break down the last "hold out" churches. 20/20 of course scoffed at the churches "who take the bible literally". One thing I have noticed is proliferation of websites that go against Bible Christians.

The IFB especially is on the hit list.

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/


I went to the website that 20/20 mentioned on Facebook called the Independent Fundamental Baptist Cult Survivors {google it}
It was interesting to me they mentioned a plethora of false teachers many of whom I have warned about on this blog:

"Your spiritual gurus at one time in your life were most likely:

Bob Jones Jr.
Bob Jones III
John R. Rice
Arlin Horton
Jack Hyles
Jack Schaap
Bill Gothard
Doug Phillips
Kent Hovind
Lester Roloff
Sam Gipp
Bob Gray
Peter Ruckman
Michael Pearl
Ron Comfort
Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar
Stephen l. Anderson
Fred Phelps
or any other man who received a phony doctorate from one of the "colleges/universities" in the IFB."

It is interesting to me how they are horrified at the idea of anyone questioning Billy Graham...Well we know why that is....

Here is the website descriptor...

"You know what I'm talking about. You went to an IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) church three times a week. The Christian school you attended was connected to your church/cult, or you were home-schooled. Your church was committed to the "Doctrine of Separation" and strong discipline. You believed Billy Graham was the "bad guy" and that all other churches and religious organizations were/are disobedient and in "sin" (i.e. you were taught even the Southern Baptists were/are "compromising liberals"). Your church also controlled nearly every aspect of your life. Your family may have even needed to get permission from the pastor before going on vacation (if you dared leaving in the first place). If you are female (heaven forbid), you most likely wore long skirts and the IFB clothing item known as "culottes" most of your life whenever you went in public (you even went swimming in them)."

I noticed the comments regarding the clothing on 20/20 as well. Well modest dress is not much loved by this world.

Bible Believer said...

I think child predators infiltrate churches too, they are looking for vulnerable people and know often in church people let their guard down and they are the types of personalities who know how to put on a "good face". One thing I thought of later, 20/20 probably did expose sex abuse in the RCC, but they would never dare call that church a cult would they?

Bible Believer said...

Oh I can't move comments sorry, but I'll leave yours up about the Passion movie. I know how could all the warnings at this late date escape a pastor's notice? I find it hard to trust any pastor who doesn't even note the Catholic biases of that movie.

Matt TwoFour said...

Hey, Bible Believer--

I finally created another article for my blog this evening...and have added you to my list of links. Keep up the good work. I enjoy many of your articles. Regarding the IFB, I grew up in the IFCA (Independent Fundamental Churches of America). I wonder what the 'word' is on those guys!

Anonymous said...

I've been in FIVE IFB churches in FIVE town and two states and NEVER once saw anything like on this program, and I was in the "inner" circle, as deacon, on committees, etc in many of these churches, so I would have known about them. I know of one abuse case, where the offender was thrown out and reported to the authorities, and that is what would have happened in any of the churches I attended. What on earth is wrong with John R Rice, a man grealy used by God, and some of the others you mentioned? This whole thing is in line with the spirit of antichrist. I am sure there is some chaff among the wheat sent to destroy the churches, but what was on this program is the exception, NOT the rule.

Anonymous said...

I believe whoever is behind that report is just rying to slam fundamentalism as a whole. They hate it, want to rid the earth of it, and looks like they're on a campaign to that effect by discrediting it before the public eye.

Anonymous said...

I don't care for David Cloud's name being on that list either. The only thing he has done is expose and stand fast and strong for many years against the nwo/papal ecumenical forces and their efforts to destroy fundamentalist churches. Most of the other churches have been overtaken by them.

Bible Believer said...

I didn't see his name on it, but did skim it, I wouldn't care for his name being on the list either. He definitely is someone who has stood fast and strong against the nwo/papal forces. He has warned about a lot of things happening in the churches including Dominionism and Vision Forum.
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/integrated.html

Bible Believer said...

I agree the national newsmedia just wants to slam fundamentalism as a whole. We know that is happening, see it all over the place from Rick Warren on down warning against the "Christian fundamentalists"

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/rwfundamentalism.htm

There is no doubt in my mind they want to do what they can to destroy the "last holdouts" so to speak.

Bible Believer said...

To Anon whose been in Five IFB churches.

I haven't been in that many but agree with you given the good IFB church I was in.

I know in the church I was in, the guy would be in jail the next day. No one would have put up with that, whether it was a church leader or not. In fact one thing I noticed in my good IFB, were strong Christian people who stood up for what was right, there was no way, that sort of thing would go down, and I am sure that would be true of many others.

There are some false teachers and decent ones too they mixed up in their list, I should have been clearer I was just quoting them and more of what they were up to.

Yes that program was horrible, and well, in service to those who want to destroy biblical Christianity. I remember the word "cult" being repeated endless times.

Bible Believer said...

Hey Matt,

I read your blog article, very good work regarding Billy Graham. The connections and story there are very interesting. I have enjoyed your other work and know your online book helped to open my eyes about many things.

I looked up IFCA [I don't really know much about them]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Fundamental_Churches_of_America

Sounds VERY good to me...

"Nonetheless, it is doctrinally quite conservative, strongly rejecting ecumenism and what it construes as liberalism within Christianity, as well as holding to Biblical inerrancy and the bodily resurrection of Christ and all believers in the End Times. It forbids its member churches from joining any denomination."

One thing about me, I do miss being in a church very much including my old IFB. [with whom I still keep contact with many members and the old pastor] I have prayed to God about finding another body of believers to assemble with. Some of the things I've seen in the liberal/modern churches here including many baptists ones makes me even more thankful for the few fundamentalist holdouts that there are.
Finding a church not tied to the ecumenical movement or other false teachings here simply has not happened.

With mainstream media they always downgrade the fundamentalists. We know that is the way of the world. Fundamentalist Christians will be called Pharisees, cultists, divisive, against church unity, etc etc. Have talked about this on this blog enough times. The online world isn't much better. I was banned from BaptistBoard.com years ago, for putting up what they construed as "anti-catholic" threads.

I have caught that air even in the false churches. Once I told someone I was in an IFB before, and well let's just say the reaction wasn't positive.

Anonymous said...

Arlin Horton-that's Abeka homeschool curriculum, Pensacola College-why him?

Anonymous said...

At MattTwoFour's book's web site there is a picture of Michael W. Smith on a wicker chair-reminds me of the wicker man. Nicholas Cage did a movie based on the wicker man and that was the movie's title. Cathy Burns's book on Nephilim(libertytothecaptives.net) is very good and I tend to agree with it and disagree with the Nephilim teaching-I heard Fred Price Jr. teach pro-Nephilims yesterday as he read from his kindle Bible(not KJV) on tv. I was noticing the symbols on Joel Osteen's and Creflo Dollar's ties. We had car trouble and stayed home from church.

Bible Believer said...

Oh yeah, the wicker chair probably has some meaning there too...Wicker chair. Ever heard of the Burning Man Festival? [very wicked pagan fest they hold out in the desert] they burn a huge wicker "man"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man

Last Anon, I would like everyone here to read Cathy Burn's book on the Nephilim, it helped me see through a lot of the lies.

http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2010/10/deceiving-you-with-aliens-and-nephilim.html

What symbols did you see on Osteen's and the ironically named Creflo Dollar's?

Matt TwoFour said...

Thanks for the encouraging words in a previous set of comments. I'm still having problems turning on the "comments" option on my NewJerusalem blog. Oh well.

I looked at your blog article about nephilim which you just now linked. As you know, I theorize rather strongly regarding the possibility of modern-day nephilim...but I emphasize the word "theorize"!

Bottom line for me really...is that the issue is 'much ado about not much'. In other words, I can't see where any critical doctrinal error is imminent if one theorizes one way or the other. I was scrutinizing your blog article on the subject...and couldn't spot any specific complaint. Maybe you could elaborate.

Certainly, there are "Christian" shucksters out there on the speaking tours and with woo-woo money-maker websites that are cynically attempting to create contrived hoopla, but...

...the "sons of God" did "go into the daughters of men" and did conceive offspring. I'm not sure how we can get around that.

There's also the fact of hundreds and hundreds of instances where folks, (around the world) have stumbled upon the remains of 12, 14, 16, 20 foot "giants". I personally spoke with a museum curator who (apparently in a loose moment?) admitted to me that they have kept hidden in their vaults, the remains of some of these "red-haired 15-foot giants" which have been spoken of for centuries by native Americans (through their official 'lore') in the Nevada area. I describe all of this in detail in my Ch. 15 of "Wolves...".

Just a few thoughts.

Anonymous said...

My question is this...why didn't they highlight the IFB's that are out there knocking on doors and winning souls to the Kingdom of God?

Bible Believer said...

I agree. Why didn't they? I still am creeped out that they choose such a small group of churches but we know the powers that be are doing everything against Christian bible believers that they can.

Bible Believer said...

Matt, try and go into the dashboard, and the different areas there, there is one place where you can mark yes or no for comments.

I understand someone studying and theorizing about the nephilim, I studied this matter, and held many like opinions but when I read Cathy Burn's book, that I detail in the Nephilim article, that definitely got some questions started. I do not see there being humans with satanic DNA, considering different Bible verses etc. So I understand this being an area of theory, and I'm open to any new information but even that, we have to be careful, how much of the Nephilim teachings out there are based on false books like Enoch instead of tested via scripture?

Cathy Burns does detail how angels are not given to marriage in the Bible, and remember too God also in his creation made each species "after their kind".

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales , and every living creature ght forth abundantly , after their kind , and every winged fowl 5775 after his kind : and God saw that [it was] good.

Reading this, wouldnt the idea of semi-fallen angel-human beings be as likely as a semi-dog cat?

Now I know today they are monkeying in the lab with all sorts of sick combos, transhumanism, their desire for chimeras, but just do not see it happening where women conceived angel "children". Cathy Burns does a better explanation on this one then I can do a justice to. Please read that book Matt even if you disagree on the front end.

I am not sure how much validity there is to the giants, it is interesting that a museum curator admitting having some to you. I did read your chapter on this, and saw even some of the pictures. I'll have to look up what Cathy Burns said about this, I think she interpreted the word "giant" not to do with height but with power. I know I have wondered where are those pictures are from and if they are real? They could be part of the deception. I do not know....

http://the-missing-piece.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/nephilim51834884.jpg

http://tetratrinitychronicles.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/giant-skull-found.jpg?w=150

Anonymous said...

Thank you for this post. I missed this program.We still have a tv even though I read the book-Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman. It was interesting what Cathy Burns's book about Billy Graham says on page 440-When Halley of Halley's Bible Handbook died Billy Graham bought the rights and took out the warning about the Jesuits(p.731). I have the 1996 printing with the warning.

Bible Believer said...

Yeah I remember reading that about what Graham removing that warning about the Jesuits from the Halley's Bible Handbook. One thing with Cathy Burns book "Billy Graham and Friends", there is a lot of updates in a later edition. I caught this program simply by accident, I usually avoid mainstream news and news shows but another family member sometimes will watch them.

Matt TwoFour said...

Well, all I can say is...the text is so clear, I've never seen anything close to a successful rebuttal, IMO. The sons of God...the daughters of men...superhuman offspring...how do we get around it?

Yes, there is the Bible's comment about angels not marrying. 1. It doesn't say they CAN'T. 2. The fallen angels seem to have lost their original physicality and either remained in an agonizing state of limbo (recall the demons begging to appropriate the physicality of a herd of pigs)...or they fashioned a new physicality perhaps? Lucifer is now "the dragon" or "the serpent"...and appears in a snake physicality....which, to me, is a clear indication of the ability to adopt new physicality.

Space industry and military-intelligence whistleblowers have reported seeing "reptilian"-like non-humans at underground facilities...FWIW. (See "Barry Peasemore" as one example.)

You talk about "demon DNA". All I know is...the Genesis text is clear and (as far as I know) unrefuted. Do you have access to some alternative interp? And the "demon DNA" thing is a "glass-half-empty / glass-half-full" scenario:

If non-human DNA has infiltrated a human...why can't the blood of Christ save that person and toss out the non-human DNA part, at the time we receive "glorified" physicality? Why should the non-human DNA necessarily eclipse the human DNA...and not the other way around?

IMO, just because the Bible talks about "kinds" doesn't mean these beings haven't found ways to crossbreed just about anything. I can certainly look at the book you're recommending.

In any case, what is the explanation for worldwide evidence of giants? Had you ever looked through the first half of my Ch.17...including many of the links? There is ample documentation, especially from early Spanish explorers..of extraordinary encounters with giants. Like I said..I spoke directly with a (temporarily loose-lipped) museum curator in Nevada who admitted to having "giants" in storage...upwards of 15 feet in height.

Again though...I don't see where the entirety of the topic isn't simply "much ado about not much". I would ask again--where are there any critical doctrinal issues for those (like myself) who believe there may be modern-day Nephilim? I don't see any. But maybe you have some thoughts on that?

OK--later!

Bible Believer said...

I'm going to throw this out here Matt, what if the repetilians are just plain demons and not biological alien beings?

With this topic, I'm open to any new evidence or bible teaching. Cathy Burns writes in chapter 5 of her book, "Nephilim, Fallen Angels and Aliens" that the term "mighty men" appears in different places in the Bible. If you can get ahold of that book read that chapter and tell me what you think epsecially. She also points out in Genesis 6:4, it says the "giants" were on the earth BEFORE, the fallen angels supposedly mated with the women.

See part I have starred:

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and ***also after that****, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown."

You are right the demons do go looking for physical places--possession as it were, but what of the bible verses such as this?

1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have ***all*** men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If there was anyone running around with satanic DNA, why would the bible say ALL MEN?


Have to end here, going to Part 2

Bible Believer said...

Can't demons shapeshift? {I know I'm getting beyond biblical speculation here?}

If they "appear" to have a body, that isn't always true.

All I know is it seems Satan's workers would be highly motivated to get Christians to believe that they are dealing with biological beings where no spiritual warfare would work.

I have read some far out stuff, about the reptilians etc, think Denver airport...I haven't read any of Barry Peasemore though. Will check it out.

One thing I do believe fallen angels and demons can come from diffferent "stars"

Obviously this is warned of in the Bible:

Amo 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

And this one...[a certain meterorite that a certain religion does endless rotations around encased in a black cube]

Act 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, [Ye] men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the [image] which fell down from Jupiter?

I don't believe humans can get or obtain satanic DNA. Think about how that one has been abused for racial purposes. As for the bloodlines of the "illumanti families" we know the human capability for evil without Satanic DNA, this doesn't preclude them hanging out with demons and fallen angels who physically manifest themselves.

I do believe Satan desires the crossbreeding, and well in the modern labs when they mix spider DNA with goat DNA or human DNA with animal, they are doing Satan's work, but this doesnt point to modern or ancient humans with satanic DNA.

Yes please get a copy of that book Matt, remember I believed in the Nephilim the same way, til I read it. It helped open my eyes.
It hasnt escaped my attention that many "intelligence" sorts now Bible teachers, you probably can guess who I am thinking of [begins with an M] advance the Nephilim teachings.

YEs Ive read your chapter there, I am not sure what to think of the giants, in other words, I do not know.

Cathy Burns points out, why would God ask Noah to put two of every kind into the ark, in fact in Genesis 6:9, it says ALL FLESH.

If there was a bunch of giants all over the earth, that wouldn't make sense.

Remember the Nephilim teachers are getting a lot of info from NON_biblical sources. Cathy Burns shows how the book of Enoch contradicts itself, quite well. I already knew it was not inspired skimming over it, but consider that.

With the "giants" its hard to know. Maybe the museum curator was pulling your leg...if there was a lot of "giant" skeletons it seemed at least one would make it out, into the world. That said, I know they have been able to "hide things", you know I am far beyond being a typical scoffer.

The foundational problem for me with the Nephilim--outlined in this article, in case you havent seen it...[let's take this discussion over to that entry by the way] is the idea that the world is going to be taken over by *biological* alien beings which would usher humanity as helpless in their face instead of the biblical instructions of spiritual warfare working on them. I believe they are out and out demons and fallen angels. Here you will see my ideas further expanded on the Nephilim...

http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2010/10/deceiving-you-with-aliens-and-nephilim.html


One question I bring up:

"Here is my idea, think about the incredible deception in telling people, these creatures are BIOLOGICAL with DNA, like you and me even if they are part "angel", where does that leave spiritual warfare? They will be deceived in thinking they have no spiritual tools at their disposal."

Anonymous said...

Angels are spiritual creatures. They do not mate and have no reason to mate. That is totally unscriptural. There were "giants", but this was a result of genetic defects and nothing more, and the fact that men lived such a long life span. After the flood they slowly decreased in age, and giants became more rare. Genetic defects can certainly cause gigantism. Anon. #1

Bible Believer said...

Thanks last Anon, yes that makes sense.

Anonymous said...

Just a question to get some other opinions from Bible Believers - Wonder if you or Matt Twofour would comment - I have gained much info from Lighthouse trails website but question the design of their site - it seems to have a disguised pyrimid in the light beam of the lighthouse, also the lighthouses seem to have phallic symbol shapes and they have a wierd hypnotic light animation to click there to enter their book order site. http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/index.html

Bible Believer said...

I believe lighthouse trails to be a false website now. Why? It relates to the questions asked regarding Roger Oakland who they print much from. They are like Calvary Chapel warning about the Emergent church and ignoring bigger issues.

http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2011/10/will-any-calvary-chapel-pastors-or.html

They still are promoting Understand the Times ministries, and while I never wrote them, I believe others did, and they never responded to the questions regarding Oakland.

I've wondered about the whole "lighthouse" thing, its not a logo or symbol I've studied but I have wondered why is it used so much and yes it looks like a pillar.

One odd thing about the lighthouse trails, is they have their "lighthouse" in the middle of land, no ocean or big body of water to be seen, unless it accidentally got colored green. Maybe that doesn't mean anything but its something I noticed.

Anonymous said...

Hmm - interesting - I have a couple books by oakland and noticed also that there was something off about it. I do think though that the emergent church and contemplative stuff is definitely leading the churches in the direction of a one world church. What is your opinion of author Warren Smith books like Deceived on Purpose and Time of Departing by Ray Yungen?

Bible Believer said...

I see Warren Smith and Yungen's names listed at too many dubious conferences. I don't know much about either but they do seem pretty "connected". I haven't read their books.

George said...

As an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church member I would like to say a few things on this topic. I for one do not normally like putting out our ' dirty laundry ' for everyone to see. But yes there is some just as their is with every church denomination or any other religion or social club out there also. And such things can be used by those who have relgious biases especially in the govornment to take away our religious freedoms or even telling us what our associations must be. But having said this , I also believe I must touch on a few problems I have seen over the years with some fundamental Churches. There is something called loyalty which is a good word unless it is taken to extremes by those who want to cover up what they or some other preacher or member is doing. And this what I would call ' loyalty doctrine ' is not good at all. Whereby some who I would say are not saved or power mongers for the rest of you , want to have it so no one questions their authority about whatever they say wether it is scriptural or not and would rather deceive the ' naaive ' in order to have a church that is unscriptural and either scatter the flock or get a following. And also remember before you condemn this church activity that there are also this kind in the political world as well. Those who have unquestioning ' loyalty ' no matter what someone says or does and want a following of themselves or the devil I would say. And this isnt far from what the Holy Bible says on this either because it says their would be those who would be ministers of satan who would come into the churches to deceive or lead astray in order to have a following. So, I believe these churches as others should givre up this ' loyalty ' doctrine. And as the Lord Jesus said , judge them by their fruits, separate from these wolves in sheeps clothing and believe only what the Holy Scripures say, which he also said, Sanctify them through thy truth ; thy word is truth. And those who do criminal acts wether they be pastors,Deacons, or Evangelists, or members of the church should be turned over to the civil authorities and go through the judicial process if a real crime has been done. As for Christians following such persons , stop it , and read your Bibles and let us behave like a Christian should unless of coarse your not a real one and their are many in churches today, all of them. And repent and believe the gospel, which is that the Lord Jesus Christ died for all your sins on the cross, he was buried, and rose from the dead the third day, was seen of men, and went back up to heaven. And confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead; and thou shalt be saved. It is time for all the churches of America to get back to his word and believe and practice it. In the Authorized King James Holy Bible. And to all I also say to remember that on this rock of the Lord Jesus Christ ,he said , he would build his church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So , the church will go on wether underground or not no matter what the wolves in the church do or the wolves in govornment do. Sincerely ;