Monday, December 20, 2010

The Duggars, Bill Gothard, Vision Forum, and The Quiverful Movement

Have you seen the show 19 Kids & Counting? This is a TV show that shows a very large family with 19 children. I have watched the Duggars, I like the show, because it's one of the few wholesome shows out there, Christian family, they home school the children, and seek to live a Christian life, in front of millions of viewers. It can be pleasurable to watch the Duggars work together in a large family, go on field trips to interesting places and each shows a special personality. To me they seem to be very likeable people from all appearances. Many Christian people love this show. I think the Duggars are very nice people, they remind me of many people I knew at my fundamentalist church except with more children and greater means. This means I was used to being around homeschoolers and those who live a lifestyle just like the Duggars, so on that note, watching the show, I would love to hang out with them, and do a few Bible studies but then I found out about the Quiverfull Movement!

I would discover a culture, I didn't even know existed in America, and one that carried the label "fundamentalist Christian": It would include such organizations as Above Rubies Magazine, Vision Forum, and what is known as the "Integrated Family Movement". Some of these movements have different distinctions but overlap each other in many essentials.

A couple months ago, at a library magazine exchange, I found the magazine, ABOVE RUBIES, I thought well this looks like a nice "Christian magazine", I took it home and was in shock. For those of you who don't know Above Rubies, it is the magazine of the Quiverfull movement with a huge dash of the Patriarchy Movement included.

According to this movement, married couples are to have as many children as possible, the quiverfull related to the verse in the Bible in Psalm 127: 3-5, which relays a quiver of arrows as being akin to being blessed with many children. Children are a blessing and abortion is evil but something is wrong with this odd emphasis to have as many children as possible. I believe families are free to have as many children possible as they desire or God wills, but something seems odd about promoting extremely large families like this.

Here are some beliefs of this movement I did not know about. They do believe men are to be the absolute authority of the home, now Christians and myself believe this as well to extent as well in that men are to be the heads of the household, but this is taken to the extreme, where women are given far less voice, and all things that 21st century humans take for granted in America such as property rights and rest would all be rescinded for women. Daughters who are unmarried and even grown [there are blogs of some SAHD "stay at home daughters" into their mid-30s] are to remain under the authority of their fathers for life until they marry. Visionary Daughters is one website, that promotes this belief as well. The Patriarchy Movement is related to this, as submissive womanhood is emphasized, almost as sort of an extreme backlash against feminism. Here is one sample article on "submission".

One thing that gave me the creeps as I examined this movement, was I felt like I was reading the mandates of what I saw in FLSD memroirs[the fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, remember them?] These were the people who got their compound raided and children taken away under charges of impropriety, who had some children escape the cult, and go on to write books about it? Well I have read some of those including one by Carolyn Jessop who was married to an older man against her will, and noticed here, too utter submission of women, was being promoted, kind of like the feminist's idea of a nightmare, a "Christian" version of the Taliban and the Handmaiden's Tale come to life. The ladies who escaped have told of a similar strain in that culture, though the girls are not married as young, most of the marriages are arranged, where the father approves who the girl will do "courtship" with, and the female submission is taken to extremes. While the Quiverfull movement does not participate in the polygamy and the revealed other criminal acts that went on in the Warren Jeff's compound, the same strain of dominance and control seems to be there.

In the FLSD world; "keeping Sweet"was something many of the "escapees" wrote about. When I was reading the FLSD books, memoirs of women abused in those cults, all of them talked about something called "keeping sweet" which had to do with this over-submission to men. The women talked about how total obedience and silence and submission to men was the rule and that when trouble came they were to keep a smile on their face all the time. While there is some truth here, we should turn to prayer, and not solving problems in carnal ways, this can also be abused to sublimate normal human emotions when confronted with evil. It is the stuff of cults and control. Cult members always are to keep smiling and looking happy, its one of the basics ways to control grown-ups and not talk about anything bad going on. Above Rubies, in their article "Seven Secrets for Wives", while there is some good biblical advice here, they too, say "keeping sweet" is to be mandated. Mrs. Duggar seems to be following this formula, while she does seem genuinely happy a lot of the time, that smile seems strained sometimes.

While I accept men taking the lead role in the household, this does not mean women being slaves or basically locked indoors. Women can be led by the Lord in other roles in life as shown in the Bible:

Rom 16:1 ¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

They do preach that the man is head of household--and I do believe that, but what about the husband's responsibilities? He is supposed to love the wife as much as his own body...When people teach an imbalances and become masters of verse plucking, much damage can come about! Ephesians 5 lays this out for men: They have their duties as well and it's not about control, its about love and giving to others, the same that Jesus did selflessly

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Mr. Duggar seems to rule his family with love, and seems inherently a kind and giving man but what of the wives with controlling or cruel men who could use the rules of this movement for abuse? Even that said, watching the older Duggar daughters seeming to be consigned to a life of caring for their younger siblings even into their 20s in the case of one, cooking and cleaning incessantly, being denied any higher education or self-chosen goals, in this society seems to be setting them up for future disaster should no good father-approved spouse show up. Denying children even a good home-schooled education, is too a problem. The Duggars at least in the early days of the show emphasized good homeschooling but this seems to have changed, with this one there is really no way of knowing for sure.

That said, why some of these Quiverfull families do value education, other's do not, and this leaves the children even more woefully ill prepared for today's world. With the Amish they have an entire community to support each other , where it isn't a sink or swim formula for every individual 10plus child family.

To me these "family integrated" churches and organizations that want to turn the clock back to an idealized form of the 1880s have lost something. God is no respecter of persons. What does one make of a church that automatically negates all childless infertile people, widows, widowers and single people? What happens when family is made first to the negation of everything else? That elevates the larger families above smaller ones, and leads people without families to a rejected place. I've been in churches that have focused on "families" to the detriment of everyone else. Even being married in such places, you are invisible if you do not have children.
Being a wife and mother are very important and I am not negating that and by the way I am a supporter of homeschooling if it is done right, but even there this movement presents a false idealized life, that never happened, [women even in the 1800s were out in the farms with their husbands and children chopping weeds, harvesting and helping with family businesses] , its like they are out to sell almost a demographic of a the "perfect life" which includes shining obedient children, a Christian version of "Martha Stewartism" marketed to Christians with perfect children, meals, homes and revamped upper middle class 50's "lifestyles" tied to idealized farm living of the 1890s. Helicopter parenting for the evangelical set with home-sewn table clothes and goat's milk for all.

While Christians should seek after the things of God and His will and renounce the evil things this world presents, there is a point where perfectionism being legalism and poison. At that point you have a cult. Pharisaical burdens, control and man-made burdens enter in. David Cloud agrees in discussing some of these aspects too:

To teach that young women cannot leave their father’s roof unless they are married is going far beyond Scripture and putting man-made yokes on God’s people.

Keeping grown women perpetual children is a disgrace. But that is just one of the many rules in these organizations. Bill Gothard, a teacher linked to these movements, seems to teach so many requirements of perfection, that no human person would ever be able to fulfil them.

While it is good to examine one's behavior and listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit and obey God and think about character issues, those who based their salvation on the goodness of themselves, instead of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, have lost the plot.

As far as the Duggars go with the oldest daughters, there are some who have jokingly said "Free them!" they do see them sadly as woman locked away. I find myself thinking they are no different then grown ladies sent off to the convent, but this time instead of obedience to a Mother Superior and bishop, it is transferred to their father who is their "church pastor" as well.

I worry about the young people who may have other callings even godly ones, and who may chaff against this system of control and that includes the Duggar children. If parents are this controlling, this is where rebellion can come in. Some separation or what some see as "rebellion" is not ungodly, while we cannot trust psychology on everything, there is normal healthy separation that comes between children and adults, as they grow and they form their own individual minds and lives. If I remained under my own parents bidding, I would still be a Catholic.

One cannot "force" Christianity on any children. We want to lead children in the way they will go as dictated by the Bible, but unless a child has become born again through their own individual conviction, repentance and trusting in Jesus Christ as their savior, the "lifestyle" trappings are for naught. Same goes for adult unbelievers, wanting to "conquer" the culture is not the biblical way of bringing people to Jesus Christ.

One worrisome thing is out there, there are many coming out of groups like this as children or Quiverfull women and ones like it speaking of abuse, and rejecting Christianity based on what they experienced. Many of their concerns are real, though sadly, not knowing the saving gospel and only the one of cultist legalism.

While every Christian can support a family that looks out for its own, even with the Quiverfull movement they have something called "leave and cleave" which means if a child does attain marriage and a family of their own, that all financial help is to end. That is dangerous in today's economy and cruel as well. I don't think the Duggars follow that one and hope they never do!

People can make idols of other people, and that includes a wife making an idol of a husband. When I read about some of these women, elevating men to such high places, where the man dictates everyone of their actions, thoughts and words, that is not a Christian relationship but a toxic one. Couples are supposed to be helpmeets not a husband with a subservient slave. When a woman is trying to be a slave to a man, you are not listening to Gods will or what He wants you to do. You have made an idol of a mere human being who is imperfect to fulfill all your needs. In the Above Rubies magazine and some of the other websites, some of the expectations put upon the men to be 'perfect leaders' and problem solvers seemed insane.

That goes for those who make the "family" or their own into idols as well. The temptation to use motherhood for self-glorification is out there, and for people to put themselves above each other. While we should love our families, Jesus Himself spoke of his true family being other believers Matt 12:49-50., and warned of those who would have family members who would betray them. Where is the Great Commission, when most energy is poured into seeking the perfect Christian "lifestyle"?

Another thing about these movements is they are all tied to the Dominionist movement. These are the people who desire to marry church and state and bring in a theocracy, I have written on them before on this blog. Vision Forum that allots for "dominion" of the home, and carries this into into bigger arenas then the home as well seeking "culture change". Vision Forum award Michelle Duggar with a Mother of the Year award. Bill Gothard has been connected to Dominionism as well. We know Mr. Duggar had his time in politics as a state representative. One sees the endless culture wars rhetoric, the claims of wanting Christians to ascend in power. Why wouldn't those who desire "dominion" of the home desire dominion of the country?

Examining the Christian Right as I have, I never knew about these groups before, so check out the links here, and tell me what you think of what I am talking about here. I may post more indepth on these subjects later. I have to admit, this one was a toughie. I like the Duggars, but disagree adamantly with the movements and teachers they follow.


Take Heed said...

Thanks for your blog, it's been a blessing and inspiration to me! May God continue to bless you in the ministry He has given you.

Hopewell said...

Good post. I've linked to it at my Quiverfull of Information blog.

Bible Believer said...

Thank you Take Heed, I appreciate the encouragement.

Thanks to you too Hopewell, I would like people to find out about these groups. I actually have been rather surprised finding out about this extreme Dominionist subculture within the "fundamentalist" world. I know the fundamentalist churches are being infiltrated, led astray, fallen away like all the others now, but didn't realize it was this bad, or about all these groups.

Lisa Ruby said...

You have made an excellent point about the practices of the Quiverful movement reminding you of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints.

You wrote, "People can make idols of other people, and that includes a wife making an idol of a husband. When I read about some of these women, elevating men to such high places, where the man dictates everyone of their actions, thoughts and words, that is not a Christian relationship but a toxic one." Amen! Your entire article is very thought-provoking. Thank you so much for alerting us to the dangers of the Quiverful movement.

Lisa Ruby said...

You wrote: "Keeping grown women perpetual children is a disgrace." Wow. You boiled it down to one amazingly insightful sentence. The insights you have provided in this article are amazing.

Your remarks about the writer of an Above Rubies article using the FLDS phrase "keeping sweet" sent chills down my spine. Something deeply wrong is going on in the Quiverful movement. I was unaware of this matter until you wrote this article. Thank you again!

Bible Believer said...

Thank you Lisa, there are HUGE parallels with the FLSD stuff, to point it shocked me, just take out the polygamy. They too teach there are patriarchs with unquestioning authority, and we saw the abuses that led to on the national scale. I feel horrible for the young girls growing into women, who are being basically enslaved by this Quivering religious system.

Anonymous said...

Dear Blogger,

Thank you for this clear and well defined article. I nearly got sucked into it myself. I would have loved to have had many children except that it pleased the Lord only to let me have two. The two that I had came via a very dangerous and traumatic way. The QF and AR cults pump out that you should keep having c-sections no matter how the affect you and your health. One woman had nine. I have been left with ill health from these operations, not to mention scar damage, I felt that I would go to hell if I did not carry on at risk to myself and leaving my husband alone to care for children.

I am have been told by a friend that God should control it and so what if you die. It is worrying as I dont want to be in sin.

Any advice?

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Anonymous, I am glad my article was of some help. I am glad you were able to escape being sucked into the Quiverful movement. I am sorry that you went through pain from their teachings. This kind of teaching comes out of no love, and legalism and what Jesus talks about when he refers to Pharisees laying on huge burdens and this one:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Being an ex-Catholic, I am familiar with Catholic women with serious health problems who came from more Trad groups, being told it would be God's will for them to die instead regarding multiple childbirth.

ennvee said...


I just wanted to chime in to say that the Duggars do indeed subscribe to "leave and cleave." Michelle said it almost gleefully in front of TLC cameras when Josh got married. However, I would call Josh an exception since he is credited on the show, thus deriving income outside that of two used car lots. His current house was also owned by his grandparents as a rental property, and the second car lot likely bought with TLC money, so he's better off than most.

I feel badly for the younger sons who will have a much harder time finding professions suitable for supporting a wife and brood of children, especially given that the men of these movements tend to stay in the area where they were raised; it's the wife's duty to relocate. At any rate, how many car lots and towing services can the greater Fayetteville area support?

Bible Believer said...

Hi Ennvee,

Thanks for commenting, well I really hate to hear that. That "leave and cleave" stuff is horrendous and shows no reality for today's world. Maybe that worked in the 1800s, where a man could support a family via manual and honest labor, but some of those folks need to wake up! I hope all those children are at least getting a small sum of money set aside from TLC.

Yes the younger sons will be in trouble, and I think with them it will be worse, because it seems the quality of home school education has sunk downward: [there was far more attention given to it, in the early days of the show]. With the daughters being left unprepared and unschooled totally, that is a recipe for poverty too, it is also legalistic and tragic, denying even things they could use in service to God. Parents age and die, and brothers may be just able to take care of their own families.

It seems Josh would have been helped somewhat, certainly the grandparents are giving him a deal on rent, but then we do not know: how did he started the used car business? I suppose name recognition would help. Didn't he say he wanted to be a lawyer on a real early show?

One thing, in the Bible, even the church is supposed to help out its own. [Acts 2]

Anonymous said...

Truth in your article mixed with error. The article is poorly done in my opinion as the arguments presented are very weak Scripturally.

The sweetness you are referring to could easily be the meek and gentle spirit that is precious in the sight of the Lord. Nowhere do you prove that adherents of this movement see women as slaves, but this simply just appears to be a false assertion that you argue against perhaps for the purpose to stir up the emotion of the reader to side with you.

Biblically women did stay under their father until they were married. The only Biblical exceptions to this is if they are to live a celibate life for the Lord. In the New Testament the older women are to teach the younger women to marry and to be obedient to their own husbands.

Biblically and through Church history Christians were fruitful and multiplied; family planning is a newer concept amongst Bible believing Christians and steams out of selfishness. One who believes the Bible agrees that God open and closes the womb and He is in control, that the barren were considered cursed and that children were a great blessing.

In short the idea appears to be given that you believe the old testament method of marriage and the God-ordained patriarchal system is morally wrong, which of course would be inconsistent with someone who claims to believe the Scriptures.

The only valid point in your article is the apparent blind submission, as women shouldn't obey something that in directly sinful.

It's very common amongst those who profess faith in Christ to allow their culture to set what they value and thus subsequently allow that lens from there culture to give them a bias in how they interpret Scripture; I would assert this is the case here.

Sure there is abuse of the system, but obviously that would be the exception and not the norm, many of the women in this movement would pity the women outside of it who feel compelled to be independent of their father and get a career or who cause much strife in marriage towards their husband.

Bible Believer said...

I think scripture is misused to turn women into slaves. You know I am no supporter of the feminist movement and recently did an article showing their evils. But the inverse of turning women into slaves of husbands and fathers, putting their authority above that of God's is very wrong. My own father was not a Christian and didn't even believe in God. Where would have "the blind obedience" of the Quiverfuls et al taken me? The system didn't even exsist even as a possiblity. Here the whole patriarchy thing follows the "chosen elect" design of things where supposely every Christian is born into a good Christian family? That is nonsense especially in this world.

I was raised in a false church with a false gospel, and so are millions of others. Even here the family dependent system is false, as many people come to Jesus Christ without any family members involved. I am the only born again Christian in my entire family network. So by that alone the entire "family integrated" church system fails and denies and betrays the Great Commission.

There can be wickedness in passivity. Women who forsake adult responsiblity, letting the men carry the full adult load. I do believe God desires gentle spirits, but this movement, brings women to passivity not borne in holiness but out of control.

This system isnt viable, in this society.

What about women who have unbeliever fathers?

The teaching of blind obedience there is false to the max.

It does keep women perpetual children and allows them to never really grow up.

I do think the modern family does not look out for each other enough, sending out young women alone to sink or swim in the career world with no help is no answer either but this inverse, that they are to stay children forever under their father, is horrible.

I agree about older women teaching younger women, but its not all about blind obedience to husbands and subservience. Even here this system breaks down assuming that a husband is saved, or that a lady was born again pre-marriage or raised in a "Christian family".

We no longer under OT law, but NT grace, so yes you are right I do not believe in OT methods of marriage. I do not believe a patriarchial system of control is God-ordained. Husband are to be leaders of the home but not tyrants.

As for culture, most born again Christians raised in a false church, such as the Catholic one in my case, have to leave their own "culture" behind. I have had to foresake, much of that culture including its holidays, events and even modern ways of living I was raised in.

This patriarchy stuff is based in false culture norms too. I have noticed the false history that is used to bolster up many of the false claims. Women in the 18th-19th century often had to work helping to run the family farm or merchantile. Even the premise of woman as perpetual child at home forever is based on false history.

Your system relegates people to a culture that doesnt even exsist for them. How does a woman lets say with an unsaved family and spouse she married before she was born again becaome a Patriarchy member? I suppose it would be like trying to join the Amish, with the family and other systems lacking including a family farm to support all those children or the finances, it would just be a dream. It is actually a world not avaiable to many. Maybe that is a good thing.

So beyond this religious system being false, it is a religious system based on resources many do not have.

So no I do not believe in patriarchy not at all. Its another false system that elevates a new "clergy" over the Christian believer, instead of Catholic priests, you do like the Mormons, and make the man of the house the "priest" to boss you around.

Libby Anne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Libby Anne said...

Can I repost this on Rethinking Vision Forum too?

Bible Believer said...

Yes go ahead...:) I am planning more articles on this stuff, and how they have infused through the homeschooling movement.

Libby Anne said...

Good, I'm glad to hear that! More people need to be talking about it. If you write more, do I have permission to crosspost them with credit and a link?

Also, here is an article trying to parse the relationship between Christian Patriarchy and the homeschool movement:

Bible Believer said...

Yes go ahead, you can cross post them.

Funny you mention this, I just posted an article talking about how they are influencing the homeschooling movement. I know people directly who are being influenced by the Vision Forum "sub-culture" in the homeschooling of young daughters. it really worries me. Right now I am praying about the best way to warn them.

Good article:

"When new homeschoolers gravitate toward the believers, attending their conventions, their co-ops, and sometimes even their churches (yes, there are churches that are predominantly made up of homeschoolers), they come in contact with Christian Patriarchy. The literature, the speakers, the teachings - well-meaning parents are sucked in before they even realize it. Before they know it, they're teaching their daughters that they are to be homemakers, having their seventh or eighth baby, and deciding that their children will find mates through parent-guided courtships. Whether they identify themselves as evangelicals or as fundamentalists, or even as reformed, these parents have, unwittingly or not, embraced Christian Patriarchy. "

The weirdest thing is seeing this being done in the where the Vision Forum family lives in a modern suburb with very few Christian influences about.

Donna Martin said...

You need to take a closer look at who these people are, and that the Quiverful movement was about submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and following the example scripture sets before you. No one is encouraged to have large families. They are encouraged to place their lives into the hands of the Lord. I understand that this is a discernment blog, but you need to take a broader view of what this is all about. Perhaps you've been tainted by what the world views as normal. They want to practice separation from the world, as not to be contaminated by its ideas. I think the Duggars are doing a darn good job of it!

Bible Believer said...

Donna, I have taken a look at who they are and have personally KNOWN acouple who have at least been on the outskirts of these movements. You warn about the Dominionists on your blog, and you have a very good blog, do you not see the correlation of the Dominonists that I have shown here too, with ATI, Quiverful, Bill Gothard, and Vision Forum? The Duggars are in with those things too and even actively go to ATI events--recent show, and Mother Duggar has been named Mother of the Year via Vision Forum. I had worried that you seemed to support Quiverful or like groups with your partner blog, please read what I am saying about these groups. No there is nothing wrong with large families, but they turn into legalism, like the Roman Catholic church--I am old enough to remember the Catholic families with 12plus kids. To me, that stuff is nothing new. Their links to Domionism are HUGE. I have read Above Rubies and Vision Forum literature, and they are Dominionist to the hilt, one Above Rubies magazine, I got from 2010, even praises one certain oppressive gov't agency. You are new world order aware, even Perry has supported Vision Forum programs such as their movie seminar.

Bible Believer said...

Some of my other posts showing their links to Dominionism...

Read the first especially:

Bible Believer said...

Another point too, Donna, they are advancing patriarchy which is a false movement too and tied into the Dominionism.

They want a "Christian Taliban".

I know finding out this stuff about these groups is not easy. I even have a friend who is caught up in this stuff, wanting her daughters to be SAHD daughters, courtship, etc. Trying to warn HER.

They have used the homeschool [decent movement] to infiltrate and other areas of the Christian world.

Oh I want you to see the article on Patriarchy as well.

Rebecca Newman said...

Thanks for this article! I've been told I don't know how many times that even though my stepfather destroyed my family by abusing his authority, it doesn't follow that all fathers will do this, that all families will suffer from this system.

I disagree. I think Quiverfull is an inherently flawed system that is just asking to be abused. I have not known one family to be better because the wife submits to every whim of her husband. None of the children in the families I grew up with turned out emotionally healthy. It's very twisted, but I had to get away from it all to see it.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks Rebecca. I think the system probably damages all of those in it, even if there are some fathers or stepfathers that are far more abusive then others. I think any father who wants that much authority to lord it over the rest of the family and the idolatry of the father and family itself, leads to a lot of the unhealthiness, so I agree with you. I think it is inherently flawed as well. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

clothedandinmyrightmind said...

The whole QF movement is just like any other "movement" that's out of balance with the Scriptures; the focus is on that one element (in this case, large families = growth)and everything else is subordinate to it. I believe you hit the nail on the head Bible Believer when you said that there is a real psychosis involved (infant hunger? Is that what you called it?)where mom just doesn't feel "whole" unless she is spitting out baby after baby. In the mean time, what happens to the other children? Bear in mind, if the Duggers didn't have the TV gig, Mr. Dugger would have an impossible time providing for his family in a realistic and meaningful way. Yes, Dominionism is very flawed and the Duggers is but a symptom of the overall health of the movement.

clothedandinmyrightmind said...

Oh, one more thought. Like most Dominionist efforts, Scripture used to justify the movement or a facet of the movement (in this case, QF), is taken from the OT dealing specifically with Israel. On rare occassion will one see any "proof texting" done in the NT because there is no justification for Dominionist thought in the Gospels or the writings of Paul.

Let's just say that for a moment the Dominionist movement overcame and is now running the Government of the United States...WHO would be righteous enough to administer this government? That's why the Church is a called out people...separate from the world and the government is part of that world. Submitting to the Lordship of Christ also means knowing what is rightfully ours to be involved in and what's not.

Bible Believer said...

I have noticed they take from the OT and ignore the NT all the time. Even the extremists who want OT law, don't get what Jesus Christ came for, and reject the gospel of grace for the law.

Actually I think it would be very bad business if the Dominionists took over. Right now Tyranny in the USA seems to be a given but whether we get a socialist /leftist flavor predominating or an extreme 'right wing" fascist flavor remains to be seen. We know of course both sides are working together for the whole globalist program. The last time the supposed "god's party" was in charge, it took us into endless globalist wars, brought approval of torture, more cementing of the police state and removal of rights. Of course Obama is helping with all those things, but I would expect if the Dominionists took over, see even more oppression. They tell us what they want already. Totalitarianism--total blind obedience to patriarchs, and those in charge, removal of all safety nets [there is a hatred for the poor in the right wing], a stronger more intense police state, OT punishments for some crimes as some of the extremists say they desire and with even more people thrown in prison for longer sentences now for even smaller offenses. I could see Rome using them in America as the new storm-troopers for a new Inquisition here to oppress the real Christians. Think the Dominionists would treat any Christians who are new world order aware and refuse to join with the world system real well? Well that's not going to happen.

Bible Believer said...

clothedandinmyrightmind, I agree about the QF being just another movement that stresses one thing to the detriment of everything else, the focus on large families, tough for those who are single, and have no or fewer children, in that world you do not exist. There is even the whole "chosen people" element too where they want to birth and breed new Christians in their own family system instead of being out preaching the gospel.

Michelle Duggar's whole affect is off, there is something really wrong there. I know in those worlds they stress "keeping sweet" but with her that is taken to the extreme but yes, the "infant hunger" is obvious as she ignores the older children and even some of the TODDLERS to focus on the next baby. She is basically a baby collector that sees her self esteem based in the numbers of babies she has. She even seems to discard Josie for the next one, which is distressing to watch as Josie NEEDS a lots of attention, help and care. Let's not even get started on Jordyn and the other very ignored children. The fortunate ones bond to a close buddy or friend in the family--Hannie and her brother, but there are a few who have not. So one can see the children who are already neglected. Sure they have their physical needs met, but there is far more to parenting then that. I've read some people who even think some of the children have delays, and I tend to agree. I agree about Mr Duggar having an impossible time providing for the family which is another concern I addressed. Thanks for your post.

Anonymous said...

The Duggars have said in their books that they are NOT part of the Quiverfull movement, so if you could take them off of this post as an example, it would be more accurate. No disrespect, I get what you are saying but if you looked into it, you would see that most people just assume they are part of it, when they themselves have said they are not.

Anonymous said...

When did they deny being quiverfull? I do know that whenever they are asked about gothard, the subject is either changed or the conversation is ended...if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck

Bible Believer said...

The ATI GOTHARD stuff too is bad enough.

Anonymous said...

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ken kirchhevel said...

as a husband and father of 5 children and one that fears God, I'd like to remind you that God held Eli responsible for stopping his sons from fornication with women who came to the temple. Husbands and fathers are also given the right to override vows taken by their wives and daughters. It is natural for a man to love his wife and children and natural to care for them, especially if they honor and obey him, which both wives and children are to obey their husbands and fathers. This is order like a car with only one steering wheel that everyone rides in trusting the driver to care for all their safety yet guided by the voices of the riders and the concern of the driver for each riders needs. I dont know if this makes any sense but it is a responsability God has placed on husbands and fathers, to lead, protect and provide for his wife and children, and when my wife and children take my guidance seriously, I also feel more my responsability and love toward them before God.

Bible Believer said...

Ken, I hope you can discern what is wrong with this patriarchy stuff, please read this article I wrote.

When it comes to Vision Forum, and the Quiverfuls and the SAHD movement, etc, If a man raises GROWN children who can't even steer their OWN impulses via their OWN relationship with God, and their own MORALS and INTEGRITY, then that parent has failed! Parents don't live forever. In fact most who hit their 40s have lost at least one parent and most often it is the father as women outlive men. It will be impossible to "guard" your children through out their entire adulthood and that would keep them from truly growing as strong independent adults.

I often see the Dominionist sheltering of GROWN adult children as the hyper zenith filfulment of modern helicopter parenting. I think if anything it will form adults who cannot form their own opinions and will be blind followers of authority, the perfect set up for the Antichrist.

I have exposed the endless connections of Dominionism to Rome on this blog, perhaps ponder that one a bit Ken. They have twisted what was of God, strong loving family with fathers as loving leaders and turned it into tyranny and legalistic rules.

How many born again Christians today even have a Christian family or father? Not every Christian is born into a Christian family. The patriarchy/Vision Forum formula fails on that one alone.

Telling people you must obey Dad or else is a recipe for disaster. It is just fine with children who need guidance but sad and pathetic when it comes to grown adults who should be capable of their own decisions under the guidance of God, especially in a society that is ANYTHING but Christian.

Bible Believer said...

What is going to happen to a daughter when Dad is gone, and in the SAHD movement where she has no job and no ability to care for herself. I do not know if you follow those dictates, but many people are following extreme stuff out there. I often think the over-sheltering if anything is setting up adults for failure, and I seriously do have a problem with modern societies lack of social connections and throwing out young women to sink or swim, this is no answer either. This is about control. My own family was against me leaving the Catholic church, so I had to "disobey" to become a born again Christian. Obedience to God comes first. Some grown adults will have to "disobey" fathers who reject God or are in false religions. Even a "Christian" father may be guilty of following false leaders and doctrine. There an adult child must obey God first and stand on their own two feet.

With life decisions, once a child is an adult, they should be leading their own life at God's direction. The Patriarchs want to be in charge over their children for life, I believe leaving to very weak unformed individuals.

With a wife, she is not to be a blind follower though the man should be the leader of the household.

Everyone needs to get away from those false Dominionist Jesuit influenced Reconstructionists [Vision Forum, Quiverfuls etc]who have influenced people to follow Tyranny at home and turn Christian households into acting like the Taliban, instead of true love and support.

Patriarchy is FROM THE HARLOT.

Men die far younger then women. So thinking no man can guard everyone's safety and keep them "safe" for a lifetime. They will have to trust in God. Some of us already have faced illness and death in the family known that life brings real lessons, I find the whole dream world of the patriarchy movement one that will collapse based on realities, ie, the patriarchs do not live for ever. The women will remain unmarried, due to the non-existence of a like minded society--aka the Amish and the collapsing economy. Every little suburban house being solitary mini-fiefdom isn't going to work. I haven met people in the patriarchy movement--they were in the Calvary Chapel I attended for a very short time [yes they are in that church too] and it was odd watching people live this lifestyle in suburbia, surrounded by all the trappings of modern life. I dare say the daughters will never leave home. How could they? Where will the husbands come from? They were some of the most isolated young women I've ever seen.

I do think men should be leaders of the household, but read my articles, the patriarchy movement has twisted this. This does not mean leaders of adult grown children either. That is wrong. You need to let them grow up if they are of age. All we have to do is look at the Duggar family to see how the daughters seem destined to be all old maids who are being denied marriage and family. Sons to be decent fathers and husbands need to stand on their own two feet and not live their lives at the sole direction of their fathers even if they listen to his advice and wisdom. When they are grown they are to make their own decisions.

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Anonymous said...

I just want to point out that Mrs. Duggar also has her real estate license and works alongside her husband in their business.

Bible Believer said...

Interesting, and even kind of more sad given the daughters, are being left without a future and totally unprepared or trained. Even the one who has done midwife "work" is not allowed to become "official" from what I have read on line. It gets sadder year by year watching especially the adult "children" age, and the oldest girls getting closer to their mid-20s and seeing absolutely no preparation for their futures or regular adult development. I have read some theorize that Gothardism will die out. How could it not when the children grow up unable to support themselves. The Duggar parents are hypocrites in that they deny their own children opportunities they had.

Bible Believer said...

Oops correction above-- "trained for a career"...don't want to misuse that word TRAIN, when it comes to the Duggars!

Joy Tucker said...

Well another problem with the quiverfull is you putting yourself in authority. Only God has authority over life. Whether you have 1, 5, or 20 children. It's almost the opposite of the nuns saying they won't have children for God. That is putting ourselves in authority and our will not Gods will.

Joy Tucker said...

Well another problem with the quiverful is that we, they are putting themselves in authority, not God. Just the opposite of the catholic nuns saying they aren't having children for God. We are not able to choose who will be born or how many. Abortion is just plain outright murder. I'm going to do this for God, I'm going to do that for God, taking things out of contents and twisting Gods words. Man putting man in power, so he thinks.
Just like adam and eve, God called them both adam, meaning human, and said sin entered into the world through adam. ( humans) not the animals, plants, planets. But man has put himself above woman, child, animal and plants. Man put woman lower, not God.He said the man and woman become 1 flesh. Woman was made from the mans rib, she is already part man, Man was not finished until the woman was made. Yes there is a order, just like cain, man tries to tell God how they should worship him.

Anonymous said...

I am by no means a Quiverfull. I belive that God Should be in control of all aspects of my life. But that the rules given in the old cov. though great principles to live by are no longer applied under the new covanent. I belive that I don't have the right to keep myself from getting pregnent nor do I have the right to seek medical help to become pregnent. If I happen to be given an open womb by God Bless his name. If I happen to be blessed with one child bless his name. I belive that my one child in 8 years who is also my Brother in Christ and guided by the holy spirit in his life also needs to be mentord as titus 2 says. wich also is a reflection of Dut 6. In Cor. it says that it is best to stay singel to beter serve the Lord. I belive a woman can stay with her Father and still work. Most Gotherd and Vision Forum are entrepanuers. Home based or career not requiering to leave home. Ideals are nice. Some feal it a yock some an insperation.
God leads each of us. and we work tughether to share the Gospel. Phil. paul talks about how some share the gospel with wrong motives or for personal fame. But he is gratful that the gospel is shared non the less.

Michelle said...

Great post. I am a daughter who was raised with all these beliefs and I have dealt with and been mentored one on one with Bill Gothard and have been heavily involved with Vision Forum for years. Leaving this group and leaving my parents at the age of 20 was extremely traumatic and I lost nearly everyone I was close to when I stepped outside of that circle. I had an extremely difficult time coming to terms with myself and with the separation, especially when I was excommunicated several times by my parents and not allowed to speak with my younger siblings. It is so difficult...and the hard thing is that I have not met anyone who can understand or help me with my struggles, as this kind of belief system and lifestyle is hard for "outsiders" to understand as it is so foreign.

To all the parents out there that follow this belief system, just remember that teaching absolute obedience and submission is NOT the best thing for your child (look at examples in history of people who, through simply being obedient, have been witness and/or committed great crimes - example, the Holocaust). I was so conditioned to be obedient to men that I had a difficult (and still do) time standing up for myself and fell victim to many abuses physically and sexually, just because I was a child, in a sense, still as I had no idea how to simply say, "no" and stand up for myself. Yes, I want my daughter to be obedient. It is important. However, I also want her to have a healthy respect for herself, be able to say no when she needs to, and know how to stand up for herself. I was not only NOT taught this, but was taught the exact opposite. And it led to severe consequences.

Esbee said...

to Michelle who said...
"I am a daughter... been mentored one on one with Bill Gothard"

Over at there have been many stories of those who were very close to Bill and how he "groomed" them. I invite you to read their stories and see if any of what they are saying is similar to your story.

Esbee said...

"No one is encouraged to have large families. They are encouraged to place their lives into the hands of the Lord."

Interesting concept but not using birth control is what usually leads to large families. And what I read and see of QF families is an overt emphasis on a large number of kids. And some families cannot support large numbers of children.

Each Christian should be listening to what the Holy Spirit tells them to do. Me placing my life in God's hands will have a different outcome than your placement in His hands.

But God did give us a brain that we can make our own decisions on many things. (it is not a sin to think and make decisions without prayer and fasting.) Why do you think it says in the Bible, come, let US reason together.)

What QF, Gothardites, patriarchy, dominionism and other legalist sects of Christianity don't get is that God does not make cookie cutter Christians. They seem to think if they all do not act, dress, eat, think and live the exact same way as whoever their leader says to do they are falling short of God's blessings. God did not make us to be robots.

Rebeca said...

I find it interesting that so many on here are expressing their own views and thoughts without scripture (in context) to support their own view.

The husband and wife represent God and Jesus. Just as Jesus submitted himself in all things to God, the wife is also to do the same (unless it goes against scripture). There are no if's-and's-or-but's in this. If you disagree with this then prove it with scripture.

As for the Quiver full movement, I too know a few families who believe that children are a blessing and a gift from God. They believe in allowing God to determine the size of their family vs. allowing man to determine the size of their own family. Since when is it EVER wrong to allow God control over any aspect of your life? So to say that having as many children as you can is wrong, is unbiblical. If you disagree then prove it with scripture.

Young women are to be taught to be wives and homemakers. No where in the Bible does it say to train women to be college educated (not that there is anything wrong with it. I am) and to fulfill their own "dreams" in the world. God created women to be helpmates. If you think that the Duggar's or any other Christian parents are wrong in training their daughters to be wives and mothers first, then prove it with scripture where the Duggar's are wrong in how they are raising their daughters.

It is a good and moral thing for the Duggar girls to live at home until they marry. It's for their protection. If you disagree with this then prove it with scripture where girls are called and encouraged to move out on their own.

Both Michelle and Jim Bob are educated and had (still do) a very successful business before the show even started. They provided for their own children before the show. As for their son's and careers, the Bible talks about training them to provide for their own families. One doesn't need to go to college to provide. The Duggar boys I am sure will be just fine in finding ways to provide for their own families. And their is nothing wrong with Christian parents financially helping them succeed in their careers.

The Duggar's have proven thus far that they are good parents who have children who love them. Children with good morals and good values. Children who love the Lord. Will some children fall? Perhaps, but it's not up to parents to save their children, it's up to God to save. We are called to raise them in a godly way and leave the rest to God. If you disagree with their parenting skills then show me with scripture where they have failed as Christian parents.

Before you start nagging on other Christian's parening skills perhaps you should look at yourself and ask yourself why all of this bothers you so much? If you really believe that God doesn't make "cookie cutter" Christians then why would you expect them to be like You?

The Bible teaches us to be encouraging to one another and to be kind and loving. All you are doing is gossiping about another Christian family. It' wrong. It's unbiblical. I would advise that you use scripture to back up everything you are accusing someone of. We all must be very careful how we treat each other and the word that are coming our of our mouths or on the computer. One day we will be held accountable for everything we say.

tshavlik said...

Rebecca, You have a good point in that Scripture should be our measure. Yet, Scripture can be taken out of context and abused as many in the above groups have done. I, personally, have come out of the Gothard movement. Though, Gothard's intentions seemed to be good, (though tolerance of sin and abuse within the ministry were not excusable), Scripture was often taken out of context to support human philosophy or Gothard's ideology. When parents take heresies (mandates of courtship, mandates to stay in the home until married, restrictions to higher education, etc.) into their parenting, they may find some measured success, but these philosophies are still heresies of our day and will ultimately damage the Kingdom of God. We are called to teach our children the Word of God (Deut 6:7), yet if we cloister them so that they do not have the skills and abilities to be effective communicators and leaders are we doing them a service? God calls some to be laborers, but others he calls to be leaders and teachers (Eph 4:11-14). Should we as parents limit our children to our ambitions, or should we prepare them to reason according to the Scriptures and release them into the world so that they can become what God has called them to be?

tshavlik said...

The interesting thing about the Quiverful movement is that the "arrows" seem to be often ill prepared for battle. In reality, "quivers" are to be full of swift arrows so that they may be released in battle to inflict damage on the enemy (Ps. 127:4-5), not hoarded for oneself or for one's own legacy.

Katy said...

I agree with what Rebeca said above. I know some of the QF/Pat. movement can be extreme...but that is in any case.

Also, to address the issue of women whose father's aren't Christian or have died etc....that happened back when the Bible was written as well.

I think the best thing for a woman to be is a wife and mother. Obtaining a career to then follow up by putting your children in daycare or with a babysitter to raise most of their lives is less than ideal. Of course, some situations demand that...but if young women can be encouraged to marry, care for their home and children....why is that wrong? Many women I know who went to college *have* to work to pay off their debt and wish they could stay home with their children. But they went to college because that is what is expeccted nowadays.

I truly believe if more women were encouraged to be wives, mothers and homemakers, there would be 1. more jobs for men 2. better family structures 3. less divorce/broken families etc.

Nicki said...

I want to start by saying that I generally agree with your point in this blog post. However, in the post and in many comments you do a LOT of generalizing, especially about the Duggars. You can't possibly know their entire lives/schedules/parenting/schooling/eetc. just from watching a weekly show. Just because they don't SHOW the kids having school each day doesn't mean that they've stopped teaching their kids. Gee whiz. The same goes with spending time with the toddlers, what the older girls do with their lives, etc. A half-hour show each week couldn't possibly tell you everything at that goes on in a 20-person household. If you're going to share information, please make sure that you have the facts, and not just your assumptions.

Rebecca said...

I find it really offensive that as Christian woman you seem to spend a lot of time gossiping about other Christians. As long as Christians aren't teaching heresy or harming others, it's non of your business or mine how many children they have or want. I couldn't even finish reading your blog because all I could see from your writing is hate. I see a lot of judgment coming from your end but few scripture to support your condemnation. I am not in the quiver full movement. I don't know the Duggars personally. Nicki's comment above is make a lot of assumptions with very little facts. You make think the women in these movements live a sad life, however, I think it's sad when women like you write blogs about another woman's family. As a Christian if you have a problem with someone, you should go to them...not to the world and trash another believer. Who cares what this family's non of your business. I would suggest reading up on gossip and slander in the Bible and get your heart right before you bash another woman for raising a family.

Bible Believer said...

They have put themselves on public display so speaking about what I see on a TV show in front of millions is not gossip. They are pushing false Dominionist teachings that should be addressed. How on earth can I go to the Duggars? I would love to talk to them and show them the warnings about Quiverful and those like Gothard. I in fact have prayed that perhaps a few found this website via Google and would question a few things. I do not feel convicted of any gossip or slander. Thanks for your posts tshavalik.

I think the world would be better off too if women could focus on being wives and mothers, however the way the Duggars are doing it, is more about "control.

roddma said...

Now Jill Duggar has married and only after three months of marriage is pregnant with a honeymoon baby. She only knew this guy 7 months with hardly any alone time. They go from the parents' home to the husband's home(actually Jim Bob's)with no time to figure out who they are. I am glad Jill is older than Anna and Josh were, but still she acts like a 14 yr old with a crush. Sure they like playing house now but what about 3-5 kids down the road?
Andrea Yates was part of this movement too. She drowned her 5 kids in 2001. They kept having kids regardless of the docs warnings about her mentality. I point fingers at husband Rusty.If he truly cared about his wife, he would not have cared what those in the circle thought. This is what happens when you set formulas.
Devils advocate, but it is cases like these why women should decide to be wives or mothers go to college Can Nikki or Rebecca point to Where does the Bible say women should never have a career? Could they point out where does it say they need protection? Where does it it say women should only be wives and others? 5 kids suffered because of these teachings and others have too. We need all kind of people to make the world turn. Marriage isnt for everyone. Parenting isnt for everyone. 10 kids isnt for everyone. 19th century ideals do not guarantee stable family. That it is pure fantasy.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for writing this. I have been thinking for a while something was wrong, vainglory and man's teaching, legalism, etc. It took me a few years to see it however. I had been wondering if I was the only one, so I am glad to come across your post.

Anonymous said...

In 19 Kids and Counting Season 12 Episode 10 called Josh and Anna Our Story, after the honeymoon as Josh and Anna are headed to their own home together Josh says, Mom and Dad were like "leave and cleave" buddy. You're on your own. I do not know if the Duggars practice "leave and cleave" or not either but it was interesting that Josh was familiar with the saying and using it.