Sunday, June 20, 2010

Leaving the Pre-Trib Position Behind

One time this Baptist retired preacher said as acouple of us at a Bible study, were talking about RFID chips [it had been in the news] and how it could be the mark of the beast, that we needed to stop talking about that..."Christians are not going to be here!".

First let me say, I believe there are many people who are truly born again believers who are Pre-Trib even if I disagree with them on this matter. Eschatological timings are not a salvation issue though one suspects with time, those listening to the Holy Spirit will be led into more truth {that is to be applied to all of us}. I was Pre-Trib for years, and many of the books, I read warning of Bible Prophecy served a good purpose for me in helping to wake me up to the deceptions out there.

The idea of a Pre-Trib Rapture "saving" Christians from all trouble and turmoil seems to be a set up for more deception and to bring the churches into the full grasp of the antichrist. Some Christians are definitely having persecution and trouble in this world right now, so the idea that Christians will automatically be taken out of here before trouble starts, seems to be based on false "Christian Triumphalism" which ignores the fate of thousands of others in the world. In other words, too many Christians have been indoctrinated by their churches that they have nothing to worry about, before the bombs go off, or anyone is rounded up into camps or before there is any martyrship, that the "rapture" will whisk you away.

Others teach too, that the antichrist can't do anything in the world as long as "the church is here" even claiming things like "I do not believe that the Antichrist can take over the rule and authority of the earth while the church is still here.". Not said, is that the spirit of the antichrist has already taken over the churches themselves, with ecumenicalism and unity to the world system taking precedent. If one makes the mistake of thinking they are "safe" because they are in a "church" they need to think again. Sadly this is what is taught from the pulpits country-wide.

While the Bible warns us of the Great falling away of the churches and Jesus Christ warned of the mustard seed that grew into a garguantuan tree with vultures in its branches, what am I to think of Christian pastors who preach over and over, "there is nothing to be concerned about"?

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

I have warned many Christians have been lulled to sleep in the pews thinking they will avoid all trouble and turmoil. This includes the propensity to embrace false pastors and ties into the message that once someone says a sinner's prayer or along the lines of easy believism that being deceived is not a possibility.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As I read the Pre-Trib writings, thinking of what I read in the Bible, too many discrepancies stood out to me. This was the biggest one:

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How could the antichrist "make war against the saints" if they are all "not here"? Odd conjectures about this all being people who later converted or Jewish people who had, just didn't measure up.

I am praying more are called to examine the Pre-Trib position. This blog, has some of the best warnings about Pre-Trib. I do not agree with everything [do about the overall luciferian deception] but his warning about Pre-Trib rings true, and is a line of thinking I came to as I read the Bible and thought there is many pieces of the puzzle missing here.

What's wrong with this picture? Personally, I reached the conclusion at a certain point (many years ago) that the reason so many aspects of PreTrib appear to be unfathomable is because they are…unfathomable. And that the reason PreTrib appears to be unrecognizable in any passages of Scripture…is because it isn’t found in any Scriptures.

Of course, that is what I am attempting to demonstrate over the course of this chapter. Continue reading!

I truly believe huge numbers of aspiring 'followers' of Christ are stumbling tragically into the gaping jaws of a roaring lion, in thinking they’ll be whisked off to heaven on "flowery beds of ease". I would strongly assert that Pretribulation Rapturism does not survive a simple reading of Matthew 24 (along with Mark 13 and Luke 21).

I agree with him.


Marylee said...

(Recently caught the following on the web.)

"Pretrib Rapture Answerman"

Why is historian Dave MacPherson called the "Pretrib Rapture
Answerman"? His bio explains why:
"Since 1968 MacPherson's research has majored on the earliest history of the pretribulation (pretrib) rapture view which began in 1830 in Britain and which was never a part of official theology or any organized church before that year. He has produced eight published books (including his bestseller titled "The Rapture Plot") and countless print and internet articles including "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," and "Scholars Weigh My Research."
"MacPherson's research has been publicly endorsed by numerous Christian leaders including premill, amill, postmill, preterist, historicist, futurist, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib, charismatic, dominionist, reformed, orthodox, and independent leaders.
"The only leaders who haven't yet endorsed his research are pretrib rapture leaders - and MacPherson's writings reveal why."

mom4truth said...

Hello, I'm a new visitor... I have read through several of your posts and find them refreshing. I also run a blog ( where I discuss the same topics. We left our apostate church about a year and a half ago after being told that if we wouldn't conform and keep our mouths shut we, "might need to part ways." Yeah, I agreed. I get so very excited when I come across someone who very well might be one of the 7,000 that have not bowed their knee to Baal. My husband and I and our 4 very young children worry that we are the only ones out there- well, it seems, at least in our town. I do come across other sites often that I get excited about, only to dig a little deeper and discover a huge Biblical discrepancy. So, pardon my skepticism in regards to your site; however, I'm eager to dig!

I chose this post to comment on because, like you, I have been checking the Scriptures daily on the topic of the Rapture. Having always believed in it, I never questioned it or measured it against Scripture. I refuse to let my words or "vain philosophies" force someone into a particular position on the topic, but encourage all to go to the Word themselves to study and find themselves approved. The concept that a church would simply advise their congregants "not to worry" is laughable. If people would regard the Word, and only the Word, and not the vain philosophies of man, they would know the whole Word of God- knowing and understanding what was coming, if only to serve as a topic to warn the masses on. We must regard the WHOLE counsel of God, even if we think some of it is not applicable due to our removal. And after much consideration, I really do see strong evidence throughout in favor of a Pre-Trib Rapture.

I am eager to know your stance on other topics as well: X-mas, Ishtar (Easter)...Some of the resource links you included I take issue with their stance on these topics, which I believe are crux issues. If someone will "come out of her" only to the extent that they are comfortable, then they are not really willing to forsake all to follow Christ.

Well, that's a lot of info! I look forward to your response...

Bible Believer said...

Interesting Mary, I've never heard of this writer but will look into him. I've heard a few theories out there about how Jesuits invented the Rapture via Darby/Scofield. This is not an issue I've studied, but per the above article definitely have more doubts about the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Peter said...

Let me first point out that a simple reading of any passage in the Bible, expecting to gain an understanding upon which one could assume doctrinal authority, is in stark contrast to 2nd Timothy 2:15 and Acts 17:11.

Beyond that, there are many compelling arguments for a pretrib Rapture which are solidly based upon studies in the New Testament.

There are even examples from the Old Testament to consider, passages such as Isaiah 26:19-21 and models such as Enoch and Elijah. Noah and his family were also spared from God's Wrath.

Christ promises us persecution, but the Bible is clear that the Bride of Christ will be spared from the Great Tribulation. Jesus Christ is not going to beat up His Bride! God's Wrath will be poured out upon the earth dwellers, not the Bride of His Beloved Son.

Of course, here will be Saints who will come to salvation after the Rapture, and they will be prevailed against by the evil one, but that is another chapter in God's plan.

There is so much biblical evidence clearly pointing to a distinction between Jesus Christ returning for His Bride and His appearance as the King who will restore and rule.

What is disturbing that so many groups hold positions based upon the assumption that only they have the truth of God's Word and all others are deluded if they vary in even a small way in their understanding.

It is much worse when they openly accuse those who have alternative view of being false teachers and wolves who have entered in to destroy the flock.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are not 100% correct in your interpretations?

Satan's lies are subtle and pervasive.

Did you ever consider that you also might have remnants of the lies which Satan has been passing off as religion for thousands of years tucked away somewhere in the folds of your doctrines that you may not even be aware of?

Is God's displeasure with us greater when we are deceived or when when we openly attack our brothers and sisters in Christ?

What I believe concerning the Rapture does not affect my stand with God. That we have the luxury of arguing over such points only proves that we are still in a state of protection, but far from a state of perfection.

That we would attack each other for drawing different conclusions based on our limited understanding of God's Word in the face of our adversaries unrelenting attack on the God's Truth for at least 6 millennium shows that we are still missing the point that God is Love and His Commandment to us is that we should love Him and each other.

I am sorry, but I fail to see how arguments over what amounts to differences of religious doctrines are a reflection of that Love.

Bible Believer said...

Peter, remember the Pre-wrath position says the church will be removed before God's wrath falls down on this world.

I do not consider eschatological positions to affect salvation, there are saved people who are Pretrib. [said this in the above] But there is nothing wrong with exploring these issues and discussing them. These discussions helped lead me away from the amillenial/preterist teachings I had inherited from the RCC.

It is odd to me when every discussion is called an "attack". Disagreeing or investigating a topic is not "attacking".

I believe there are some deceptions coming down the Pre-Trib pike, many believe Christians especially in America will not be facing tribulation, this is setting people up for a fall.

Bible Believer said...

Sorry Mom4truth I am getting back with response so late, your comment went into spam box, by accident. Thanks for your compliments, I will check your blog out too. Yes the false churches will tell you to be quiet, shut your mouth, do not rock the boat, or the ever famous do not be "divisive".

I get excited too when I meet Christians who are discerning to and "get" what is going on and follow the Holy Spirit instead of the celebrities and popular "Christian" culture.

That is ok, if you want to explore my website, I tell everyone to test everything by God's Word, that includes even here. With all of us there are still things we are studying and learning.

With the Rapture, I believe this is one that takes time to learn about and Holy Spirit to show people on things, I was semi-in the PreTrib camp for the longest time though I mused over mid-Trib. Just about every popular teacher out there is Pre-Trib, so wonder so many Christians have gathered around it. I will not consider you not a fellow believer for going with Pre-Trib, but wanted to ask what scripture made your determination?

I do not celebrate Christmas or Easter do consider them as having pagan roots. Dec 25 is not the birthday of Jesus, and chosen to coincide with the winter solstice and Saturnalia. I know there are saved people who celebrate both who have not studied, and don't know but definitely have explored those topics. As far as I know the folks at my links do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, I know Liberty to the Captives shares my viewpoint and Jesus is Savior posted this:

I'll go and check out your blog.

Anonymous said...

Unit 731:::TSUSHOGO was a clue from the gods about this Situation dating way back to World War II. They used their positioning to hide these Japanese atrocities, and blamed me for burying the Chinese Holocaust.
TSUSHOGO says something:::It speaks to the responsbility the Italains had for WWII, the Holocaust and for those people's involvement in the intentional destruction and exploitation of my life, both for the god's REAL reason and their positioning's reason, buried with their "respectable" multinational corporation client list.

Budget problems. Cut the military. Bring them home and end the wars. Let these countries experience self-determination and decide their own future. Didn't we learn this lesson in Vietnam???
Unfortunnately, the gods use the United States as one of their tools, using the spread of democracy to level the playing field and prepare the planet for a global event.

So many people don't care about global warming. They don't care about the Federal deficit/debt (outside of partisanship) and they don't care earning $400k for an $80,000/year job will eventually bankrupt the country. They have awarded themselves $400k pay and retirement packages, loading up their friends on the payroll during the boom 90s through the real estate bust while all services which the program were intended to fund now get cut to pay for it.
These people are often common public university labor. Not Ivy League, not private university.
This labor isn't good enough to command the salaries they are earning. And they understood this when they applied to the public university they settled on.
You can't expect a top-tier salary with a second-rate education.
In addition, public employment has earned the label of being "recession-proof" jobs, a benefit which was taken into consideration with lower pay packages as compared to corporate.
These are the people who will be here in the United States when bankruptcy is declared and society deteriorates into chaos. And they will deserve the anarchy which ensues.

Continuing the push for privatization, reinforced and supported recently with enormous public sector salaries and retirement packages.
Once achieved the gods will utilize the corruptive predisposition of the private sector economy, as seen with the sub-prime/bailout fiasco, to initiate economic catastrophy and initiate the bankruptcy proceedings of the United States.
Whether the cure for cancer/diseases or the permanant resolution of economic misery, before the gods remove these motivations to pray we will experience an inordinate deluge of each element, with economic misery being perhaps the dissallusion of the united States with bankruptcy.

The gods used the Italians to ruin life in the 20th century.
The gods used the Italians to ruin life in A.D. with The Church.
The Church controlled Western Civilization. As the largest land owner in Europe they controlled the monarchies. They were responsbile for slavery, crack babies and thug life/drive-bys, revenge for African invasion and rape of Italy. They created religious and social discontent through the Church, ultimately leading to the disfavored dumping ground known as the United States.

Color photographs shortly after the 4.16.06 San Francsico Earthquake found.
They deserved it. Just like New Orleans deserved it.
Sadly San Francisco was used to set up the Italian dominance, eliminating the diverse business/banking interests and replacing it with Gianinni's Bank of Italy. Of course the fires were instrumental in ensuring complete rebuilding.
Imagine how the gods sold the Italians this, and compare it to how they sold them on preparation for WorldWarII.

Expect the gods have instructed AI to organize the universe so planets mature and descend while the gods can give them their full attention during their period of planetary devolution, and claims of heirarchy are yet another lie.
Says something frightening, doesn't it?

Hagnismos said...

We should start a facebook page where people with the same insights can gather and talk.

Pre-trib is trash. At best it is an unqualified guess, at worst it is a satanic ruse.

Bible Believer said...

Thanks for posting your blog.

On your recent blog entry, Santorum's Knights of Malta membership should give you more then mere pause, but perhaps here realizing the role that Rome is playing in our political system will help with that.

"With the Pope recently calling for a one world economic order with teeth, I think that Santorum's deep connections to the Vatican will be a concern for evangelical voters, no less than Romney's profession of the Mormon faith. Overall though I do feel much better about conservative Catholicism than I do about Mormonism, and Santorum is a guy who is hard to dig up dirt on."

From what I could see most of the evangelicals could care less, they have been sheepdipped into total ecumenism with Rome.

Why feel better about Catholicism then Mormonism, Mormonism is simply a daughter too of the harlot.

I tried to dig up the spiritually smart website, he took down all his pictures and moved everything to Facebook. Why move a website that exposes Rome to Facebook, so they can keep track of the real identity of everyone who knows the role Rome is playing in the USA? Sigh.

I agree with you about Pre-Trib. I believe it is a satanic ruse and a crafty one at the highest order.

Paula Fether said...

(part one)

Here is my response to your article; I'll put a snippet of each paragraph of yours in italics so you know which one I'm commenting about.

The idea of a Pre-Trib Rapture "saving" Christians from all trouble and turmoil seems to be a set up for more deception and to bring the churches into the full grasp of the antichrist...

We agree that Christians already suffer, but as I pointed out in my comment on the other article, this is no ordinary time of suffering; it is unprecedented and its purpose is to judge Israel and the unbelieving world. As God's children and Christ's bride, we are not under the wrath of God, and since many believers have already suffered, we cannot be accused of either cowardice or unpreparedness. Any Christian who thought they wouldn't ever suffer was in for a rude surprise no matter what era they lived in. So there is no necessary connection between this attitude and pre-trib, and it is thus a false charge to make pre-trib responsible for anyone's lack of preparation or spiritual maturity. And since there is a blessing promised to all who read the words of Revelation and take them to heart, anyone who teaches us to not study prophecy is a poor teacher indeed.

As for escapism or fear, I would love to see the bravado of these anti-pretribbers when the events of Revelation take place, should their theory be correct. We'll see how prepared and brave they are then. I have a hunch that people who deem themselves strong and prepared will find out that they weren't as tough as they thought.

Paula Fether said...

(part two)

Others teach too, that the antichrist can't do anything in the world as long as "the church is here" even claiming things like "I do not believe that the Antichrist can take over the rule and authority of the earth while the church is still here.". ...

If you look at the Greek, Paul's statement in Rom. 11:25 is that there is a "full number of Gentiles" required, as in when a ship cannot depart until the sailors required to sail are on board. James also mentioned this number of Gentiles at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:14-18). So The Departure cannot commence until the "ship" is fully manned, which supports the belief that the prophetic clock for the Jews cannot resume before that point. This is also nicely compatible with the wedding analogy; God's wrath cannot be poured out while the Bride is still awaiting her Groom.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As I read the Pre-Trib writings, thinking of what I read in the Bible, too many discrepancies stood out to me. This was the biggest one: ...

Again, I see no discrepancy here, but rather a confirmation of the pre-trib Rapture (I'll abbreviate as PTR). As mentioned, the Greek phrase is "the departure", and the context is that the people of Thessalonica had been fooled by someone saying that the Trib. had already started--- just like some of the anti-PTRs are today! The Day of the Lord simply cannot begin until both events-- the Departure and the revealing of the Antichrist-- have come to pass.

Paula Fether said...

(part three)

How could the antichrist "make war against the saints" if they are all "not here"? Odd conjectures about this all being people who later converted or Jewish people who had, just didn't measure up. ...

"Saints" simply means "holy ones" and they were in the OT as well as the NT. To make them always mean Christians is to beg the question. Salvation during the time of God's wrath will be very, very simple and clear: choose sides. There will be no atheists anymore, but only a choice between God and the Antichrist. People who choose God during that time are never called "the church", and the Bride of Christ is not mentioned on earth until she comes down to earth at the end of the Tribulation. And what of Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell" would never overcome the church, if this is exactly what happens during the Trib. (Rev. 13:7)?

The quote from the other site that boldly claims the PTR isn't found in scripture is simply wrong. It is not "unfathomable" in the slightest, and certainly no more so than any other view. I will stand before God at the Judgment and testify that I was lumped into a group who are somehow deluded, ignorant, afraid, stupid, and easily led astray. Such people will have to give an account for the way they slandered fellow believers, even as they claim they didn't mean to. The fact is that when a whole group of people are labeled, and often belittled as "I once thought as you do but I know better now", that includes me, and Jesus will take it personally.

Re. some of the comments: It is a flat-out LIE that PTR is "new", and mocking labels such as "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" are making me wonder what spirit is behind this growing hatred of the PTR. And I never personally encountered ANY PTR teacher telling people they won't ever suffer and don't need to worry about it. Not one! And again, if a person leaves PTR because it "takes time to learn about and Holy Spirit to show", then this means PTRs haven't learned and have not had the Spirit show them; again, this is demeaning and arrogant. A "Satanic ruse"? We will see, and God will judge whoever fell for it and belittled fellow believers.

Christian Cerna said...

After examining the Scriptures, especially the New Testament, I can say for sure that the idea of a secret(pre-trib) rapture is not biblical. The scriptures make it clear that Christ will return once, and will gather up the saints, and judge the world. But this will take place after a time when the antichrist appears, and makes war against the Church, and there are great signs in the heavens and earth, and plagues on the people of the Earth. I would call my position pre-millenial(not to be confused with dispensational premillenial), which basically means that I believe Christ will return after the antichrist appears and the final war against the saints, prior to the millenium kingdom. Although I also think another possible interpretation is the amillenial view of the millennium, which basically states that the millennium spoken of in Chp. 20 of Revelations can also be symbolic of the time between the first coming and the second coming of Christ, during which, at the end, the antichrist will arise and deceive the nations and make war against the church.

Christian Cerna said...

Paula, contrary to what most people have been taught, the Bible does not teach a secret rapture, nor the idea of a second chance for those who are left behind. There is no second chances with God. The parables of Jesus clearly teach us that once the doors are shut, the foolish virgins will not be allowed to be with the groom. and the last days are compared to the days of Noah. And when the doors of the ark were shut, there was no second chance for those that perished. Read the book of Revelations. You will not find any reference to a secret rapture, or to second chances. If this were true, why doesn't the book of Revelations describe a panic on the Earth, when millions of people suddenly disappear without a trace? On the contrary, we are told that the antichrist will force people to take the mark of the beast, and those that refuse will be beheaded. The bible tells us that the Lord will return with the voice of an Archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. Do you think that describes a secret coming? Why would the Lord come in secret? He has nothing to hide. On the contrary, he will come in glory and splendor, and the nations will mourn when they see him, and the mountains will hide from his presence. He will no longer come as a lowly servant, but as the victorious King of all the Earth. Then he will Judge the living and the dead.

Anonymous said...

[Great blog, Galatians 4. Saw the following on the net. Irv]

Pretrib Rapture Pride

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google "Morgan Edwards' Rapture View" and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don't have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice." Also Google "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)" - featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 "End Times Passover" blog.